Phil Jones in midfield revisited

[Chabon]

The half at most. And the other half laughed them off, especially those who compared him to Duncan Edwards. What a joke.

You're chatting bollocks about the forum mate, just go back and read the postmatch threads. And, as I said, what about the press and the ex-pros?

Phil Jones destined for Manchester United folklore

Phil Jones supplies solution to Manchester United's midfield dilemma

Jones earmarked for Man Utd defence but better in midfield

Jones will be Europe's finest, says Wolves manager McCarthy

Is Phil Jones the new Duncan Edwards?

‘Sensational’ Phil Jones ‘Has a Touch of Bryan Robson or Roy Keane

All articles from about a year ago. Obviously the comparisons are premature, but the fact that they were being made at all spoke volumes about how impressive he was at the time.

 

[noodlehair]

Noodle you do talk rubbish at times. Jones is an exceptional young talent as is more than capable of playing centre midfield tomorrow. He has great drive is capable on the ball, a good screen for the back 4 along side Carrick plus his energy in going box to box would be a great asset to us on Sunday. I hope he starts Sunday as he is an absolute warrior of a player and he exactly the type we need to go head to head with Toure and co. Stop writing this kid of and give him a chance he was we sensational in his first 6 months here. To say this and that about him not being good enough to play midfield is rubbish at this stage truth is there is every chance he could be top class.

You think he (a 20 year old defender) is an absolute warrior of a midfielder based on him playing quite well against Wolves and QPR, and being found out by the likes of FC Basle.

...And you've accused me of talking rubbish

 

[Chabon]

I don't think you get to just write off impressive performances because they were in international friendlies or because the game was dour. Of course it was bloody dour, McLeish was managing one of the teams, doesn't mean Jones wasn't man of the match.

 

[Godfather]

All that hype started because he had 2 good games ffs. Against Wolves and QPR and a reasonable performance agaist Villa.

I'M not saying he isnt a great talent he obviously is but he is nowhere near good enough to be called our saviour in midfield or the new Duncan Edwards. He doesnt even have a place in our first 11 when all are fit, especially in CM.

I'd still start him against Shitty but not because he is so great but because I think Fletch looked even poorer than him and everyone else is injured.

Plus he can bring some energy into our team.

 

[Lawman]

You think he (a 20 year old defender) is an absolute warrior of a midfielder based on him playing quite well against Wolves and QPR, and being found out by the likes of FC Basle.

...And you've accused me of talking rubbish

I said warrior of a player. So now you just proved my point.

 

[pocco]

The Duncan Edwards comparisons pissed me off. People were raving about his dribbling when in reality it wasn't that impressive. There were absolutely zero skill involved in a lot of those runs, it was just him running at 100mph and beating the next guy to the ball.

Back to the point though, I don't get why people think he should play against City. I seriously hope he doesn't.

 

[marjen]

The very fact that he's considered an actual option in midfield vs City ahead of the likes of Scholes and Giggs does say a lot about the kind of season they're having.

It also says a lot about Fergie's inability to sort out the fecking midfield these last three years when Rooney in midfield is an absolute dead certainty if we're going to have the slightest chance against City.

 

[noodlehair]

I don't think you get to just write off impressive performances because they were in international friendlies or because the game was dour. Of course it was bloody dour, McLeish was managing one of the teams, doesn't mean Jones wasn't man of the match.

It was a dour game in which no one was particularly impressive, and England friendlies just aren't really a valid indicator of anything. For example, England beat Spain in one of them.

I'd still start him against Shitty but not because he is so great but because I think Fletch looked even poorer than him and everyone else is injured.

Fletcher is much better positionally and has better ball retention (when he doesn't brain freeze) so I reckon he'll start.

I said warrior of a player. So now you just proved my point.

What is your point that I've proven?

That you're too stupid to realise we're talking about Phil Jones as a midfielder and not a defender?

 

[Chabon]

All that hype started because he had 2 good games ffs. Against Wolves and QPR and a reasonable performance agaist Villa.

All that hype started because he was an impressive midfielder for Blackburn at 18 years of age, and then every big club in the land tried to sign him for a huge fee.

He dropped straight into Manchester United's first team and played with huge confidence and aggression in defence (remember that Bolton match). That ferocity made people overlook his defensive naievety, but then he brought that aggression into midfield for club and country and was very impressive for both, all at 19 years of age, 19!

Since then he's had a bunch of injuries and has barely played in midfield. His form at RB, when he has been fit, has been mixed, but I see no reason to change my opinion from what it was 12 months ago.

The Duncan Edwards comparisons pissed me off.

You'd do well to remember who made that 'comparison', and also exactly what the great man said.

 

[Lawman]

It was a dour game in which no one was particularly impressive, and England friendlies just aren't really a valid indicator of anything. For example, England beat Spain in one of them.



Fletcher is much better positionally and has better ball retention (when he doesn't brain freeze) so I reckon he'll start.



What is your point that I've proven?

That you're too stupid to realise we're talking about Phil Jones as a midfielder and not a defender?

No the point is that you are to stupid to realise that if he is a warrior of a player. Then his character will be the same regardless where he can play and IMO Jones is more than capable of playing centre mid or as a defender.

 

[Brwned]

The Duncan Edwards comparisons pissed me off. People were raving about his dribbling when in reality it wasn't that impressive. There were absolutely zero skill involved in a lot of those runs, it was just him running at 100mph and beating the next guy to the ball.

Back to the point though, I don't get why people think he should play against City. I seriously hope he doesn't.

I don't think anyone considered him an excellent dribbler. From what I could see the consensus was he was a strong, powerful runner with the composure to do something with it at the end of it, and that made him a genuine threat on the ball. I still think that's the case. Against Bolton he showed plenty of skill, composure and awareness along with all of the other mental and physical qualities he shows every game.

 

[Ekeke]

All that makes sense but you're ignoring the fact that when Jones plays in midfield, for some reason, all he wants to do is run the ball 60 yards up the pitch and play advanced passes that can be intercepted. He is a defender but he doesnt do defending when he's in midfield for some reason. The last thing he's thinking about is screening the defence

 

[TheReligion]

People are forgetting how long out injured Jones has been.

The other night was promising, yet he looked out of sorts against Reading. I don't think it is going to be long, if he stays fit, before he starts putting in decent performances again from whatever position we play him. Something like your passing can be a bit off after a long time out.

 

[Lawman]

Yep Fletcher is better positionally and has better ball retention but I suspect you could say that still about Roy Keane but like Scholes and Fletcher he struggles to run nowadays. Hence the reason I would like to see Jones play midfield on Sunday as Fletcher is a million miles of the pace unfortunately.

 

[marjen]

Yeah, I don't want to see Fletcher, Scholes or Giggs in our midfield vs City ideally.

If I were forced to choose, I'd play Carrick with Rooney and Scholes, and hope that Carrick and Rooney can cover for Scholes.

 

[noodlehair]

No the point is that you are to stupid to realise that if he is a warrior of a player. Then his character will be the same regardless where he can play and IMO Jones is more than capable of playing centre mid or as a defender.

So you ARE saying he's a warrior of a midfielder?

Your point is that he's a warrior of a midfielder, and I've proven this because you didn't actually say he was a warrior of a midfielder?

Have a medal.

 

[Lawman]

All that hype started because he was an impressive midfielder for Blackburn at 18 years of age, and then every big club in the land tried to sign him for a huge fee.

He dropped straight into Manchester United's first team and played with huge confidence and aggression in defence (remember that Bolton match). That ferocity made people overlook his defensive naievety, but then he brought that aggression into midfield for club and country and was very impressive for both, all at 19 years of age, 19!

Since then he's had a bunch of injuries and has barely played in midfield. His form at RB, when he has been fit, has been mixed, but I see no reason to change my opinion from what it was 12 months ago.


Great post Chabon sums it up nicely, although to be fair to Pocco (a very good & sensible poster) the quote about Duncan Edwards did annoy me at the time as well even though it was from Sir Bob.

 

[Lawman]

So you ARE saying he's a warrior of a midfielder?

Your point is that he's a warrior of a midfielder, and I've proven this because you didn't actually say he was a warrior of a midfielder?

Have a medal.

Go and have a lie down Noodle your obviously confused.

 

[Godfather]

It was a dour game in which no one was particularly impressive, and England friendlies just aren't really a valid indicator of anything. For example, England beat Spain in one of them.



Fletcher is much better positionally and has better ball retention (when he doesn't brain freeze) so I reckon he'll start.



What is your point that I've proven?

That you're too stupid to realise we're talking about Phil Jones as a midfielder and not a defender?

He looks way off pace though and as skinny and slow as ever. I'm glad he's back but I think he'd have a horrible time against the likes of Toure.

 

[Theon]

Great stuff Chabon, you've nailed it here in my opinion.

Villa was one of his best performances of last season, they were a shit side but it doesn't change Jones playing well in centre mid.

That Reading game means nothing, he was never going to be suited playing so advanced.

 

[noodlehair]

He looks way off pace though and as skinny and slow as ever. I'm glad he's back but I think he'd have a horrible time against the likes of Toure.

Yes he would, but luckily Toure's looked a bit crap so far this season and whoever they put next to him isn't going to be all that.

I wouldn't want to play Fletcher but he is at least mobile enough to operate as a unit alongside Carrick. Scholes and Giggs aren't, and Jones wont be much use at all if City put us under any pressure in midfield...which they will.

 

[Theon]

I reckon it would be the opposite Noodle, if city put us under pressure in the middle then Jones' physicality and workrate would be useful in winning the ball back.

 

[Platato]

I reckon it would be the opposite Noodle, if city put us under pressure in the middle then Jones' physicality and workrate would be useful in winning the ball back.

His positioning is suspect in that position. Same as CB. I wouldn't want to try it against a top team.

We know he has these qualities but as Dortmund and other teams showed, you need to apply pressure effectively as a team if you're going to disrupt City's rhythm. With two passes, Jones and any of our midfielders could be taken out of the game. I'm not opposed to Jones starting but this business of players being in unnatural positions isn't something I want to try in a big game.

Granted, it could work but I'm not a risk taker like Fergie is. Cohesion,organization, and discipline. Only way we have a chance against that lot, as poor as they have been.

 

[Theon]

His positioning is suspect in centre midfield with a holder behind him? I don't think it's an issue at all.

Without Carrick there is danger because he'll leave gaps in front of the centre backs, but with Carrick sitting there isn't the same threat.

 

[Chabon]

Granted, it could work but I'm not a risk taker like Fergie is. Cohesion,organization, and discipline. Only way we have a chance against that lot, as poor as they have been.

You're right, but our other options to partner Carrick are Giggs, Scholes and Fletcher. Hardly going to pretend Jones is ideal, but I reckon he's the least-worst option.

 

[Lawman]

So you ARE saying he's a warrior of a midfielder?

Your point is that he's a warrior of a midfielder, and I've proven this because you didn't actually say he was a warrior of a midfielder?

Have a medal.

You're right, but our other options to partner Carrick are Giggs, Scholes and Fletcher. Hardly going to pretend Jones is ideal, but I reckon he's the least-worst option.

Agreed if we had a Dembele and or a fit Fletcher we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

[Adebesi]

Yeah, I don't want to see Fletcher, Scholes or Giggs in our midfield vs City ideally.

If I were forced to choose, I'd play Carrick with Rooney and Scholes, and hope that Carrick and Rooney can cover for Scholes.

This is what I expect to see. Carrick and Scholes with Rooney playing deep and helping out.

 

[Ruud10]

It's very disappointing to see Jones get run down so hard here. He's being held up against the standard of an experienced international, which is ridiculous.

We have to decide whether we genuinely believe in developing young players or not. If not, then we just go galactico and see what happens.

My preference is to support our promising young players, fully aware of the risks that young players will resent at times.

 

[Platato]

It's very disappointing to see Jones get run down so hard here. He's being held up against the standard of an experienced international, which is ridiculous.

We have to decide whether we genuinely believe in developing young players or not. If not, then we just go galactico and see what happens.

My preference is to support our promising young players, fully aware of the risks that young players will resent at times.

There's plenty of grey within this situation so it's not as easy as you make it out. What have we done recently which shows we don't genuinely believe in developing young players?

The discussion seems to be when and where we're using them.

 

[Chabon]

I think with the exception of the Scholes playing ahead of Cleverley thing, the club remains as committed to young players as ever. Just look at all the lads in the squad under 25, there's loads of them.

The fans, on the other hand, seem to be getting worse and worse. The stick Welbeck gets from people around me at OT is ridiculous. There were even ironic cheers when he was subbed off against QPR.

 

[Platato]

His positioning is suspect in centre midfield with a holder behind him? I don't think it's an issue at all.

Without Carrick there is danger because he'll leave gaps in front of the centre backs, but with Carrick sitting there isn't the same threat.

We'll just have to see. With/without carrick we've still been porous. It's about balance.

The other issue is when we have the ball. Jones was good against Cluj but his use of the ball is another spot of bother for me as well. THen again, due to options, we may be forced to field him in midfield.

 

[Ash_G]

I think he could work fine next to Carrick in a 2, he wasn't as gung-ho when he played there last season in that role, it was only when it was a 3 that he pushed on, and you have to assume that was tactical, if it wasn't then there's no reason Fergie would continually do it or not address it. Some have over embellished how well he did there last season though, he was good, but in games where we really didn't have many problems and where he could just be the free man with Carrick controlling the midfield.

It's not ideal if he does play there, clearly he's inexperienced but I don't think it would be terrible, he's a good tackler, has plenty of energy and is a strong guy, with our defence being a bit of a mess him being able to come in as almost a 5th defender could be useful.

End of the day with Fletcher not really showing the fitness we'd like then there isn't much choice, particularly with Ando out. Scholes knows what he needs to do but lacks the energy to do so and will just force our midfield deeper, even if clev was fit he isn't exactly positionally strong in centre mid, Giggs is surely not in contention and would be a greater liability anyway as he can switch off quite a bit atm. So there's not a huge amount of choice. Regardless of what happens there it's Rooney who you'd expect will play as a 3rd midfielder that could make all the difference.

 

[Platato]

As I have said before Chabon, there is an increasing amount of impatience growing in football these days. With City winning the title last season and the team not playing well, blame is easily found. Margin of error seems to be getting smaller. More fans seem to buying into the "efficient machine" philosophy and a machine isn't very effective if one of its parts keeps coming loose.

The way we talk about youth is different as well. Much more expectation and very results-driven.

 

[Platato]

Ash, think of the Chelsea match. Once our midfield 3 lost our shape and Ramires pushed forward, we began to lose our way. It's why our discipline and concentration needs to be at a maximum tomorrow. If Jones plays alongside Carrick, my main question will be can he maintain his poise and show some positional discipline? It's going to a be big test for him. Last time he played against City, he looked overwhelmed by the occasion.

Based on Fergie's comments, looks like we'll be setup very cautiously tomorrow. I expect a cagey match with both teams having their spells of possession. I'll be quite curious how we handle City's pressure as a defensive unit. Don't see a clean sheet for either side.

 

[NinjaFletch]

The Duncan Edwards comparisons pissed me off. People were raving about his dribbling when in reality it wasn't that impressive. There were absolutely zero skill involved in a lot of those runs, it was just him running at 100mph and beating the next guy to the ball.

Back to the point though, I don't get why people think he should play against City. I seriously hope he doesn't.

Yeah, I don't think people understand that. I can dribble like Jones does, it's actually rather easy. Just run at pace, big touches and big changes of direction.

I try and do something that Messi can, for example, with dainty delicate touches at close quarters I normally trip over the ball and look a tit.

 

[Ruud10]

There's plenty of grey within this situation so it's not as easy as you make it out. What have we done recently which shows we don't genuinely believe in developing young players?

The discussion seems to be when and where we're using them.

I don't want to call anyone out but I've seen a number posts on this thread that are unduly harsh on Jones. There have been numerous unduly harsh posts on De Gea, Hernandez and even Powell. No young player comes to us as the finished product, not even Ronaldo.

None of this is directed at you, great student of Socrates. I'm merely answering your question.

 

[Beachryan]

I'd stick Jones in the midfield and have him basically man-mark Silva. City really do struggle to create without him operating at his best, and despite Toure being able to muscle through at times, he doesn't contribute the whole match.

Should be interesting, but likely depressing!

 

[Ash_G]

That's somewhat true, some of it was Chelsea just showing some of their quality, but we don't have Clev for this game or Ando, so that means its Scholes, Fletcher or Jones. Now as one of Fletchers biggest fans, I'd love to back him and if he starts I won't complain, but my point was that between those 3 there's no clear better partner for Carrick.

Scholes as I said will make us play deeper and that's what we don't want and he can't deal with the power of someone like Toure nor the movement of silva/nasri. Plus with neither Nani or Valencia I don't think the game is suited to Scholes as well, we don't have any wide players who will want to stay wide and so the game is gonna get narrow and that's where Scholes struggles.

Fletcher is probably the best option but he's looked slow and at times his touch hasn't quite been there. Jones can lack discipline but personally I think if he was given a role where he had to hold his ground he'd be ok, I think most of the problems people have stem from seeing him in a role like against reading, but like I said for whatever reason that must have been tactical, like we've seen before when he's played in a 3, there's never been any suggestion of him not following instructions and you can see no one is visibly telling him to not go forward.

He can get excitable but I don't think he's completely lacking in discipline, when he plays right back he doesn't really over commit, nor has he gone full on luiz as a cb, he's had problems but nothing too excessive for a young defender. In midfield though with Carrick as the holder we can afford him to not take up the best positions within reason and his ability to be able to drop in as an extra defender may well work out for us given our defensive frailties of late.

Not saying he's my first pick there but given our choices atm I don't think playing him over Scholes or Fletcher right now would make a massive difference.

 

[Platato]

I don't want to call anyone out but I've seen a number posts on this thread that are unduly harsh on Jones. There have been numerous unduly harsh posts on De Gea, Hernandez and even Powell. No young player comes to us as the finished product, not even Ronaldo.

None of this is directed at you, great student of Socrates. I'm merely answering your question.

I agree with you. I highlighted more fans are becoming impatient and judge youth much harsher these days. I think a good amount of support believe these young players are capable and I do think they believe in them as well. There have been calls from numerous fans to put more trust in the youth. Problem is, youth are inconsistent and they do need time and with the growing expectation surrounding young players these days, the criticism is only going to get worse.

You could say it's a combination of frustration, disappointment and downright impatience.

If you were to ask me, my frustration stems from the sense we seemingly don't have much a gameplan. Hopefully that bit turns around in the coming year.

 

[Dante]

I'd like to see him in midfield against City.

There's been a lot said about his lack of positional discipline but it's not like he was vacating his position every two minutes when he was screening the defence at Blackburn. The fact is, he's gone on his Leroy Jenkins runs over a course of matches and never really attempted to rein himself in. That indicates to me that Fergie actually wants him to develop that side of his game, or else he would have been told to cut it out in no uncertain terms by now.

The way some people are talking, it's like he's some kind of headless chicken who does what he wants and can't be controlled. If that were the case, Fergie would never pick him at all .

On Sunday, if SAF sees fit, he'll play in midfield. If he does, I'm sure he'll be told not to maraud forward and he'll be fine at it.