What exactly do you think Duncan Edwards did? Jones' bullocking runs are more like DE than anything that modern "skill" players do.
Phil Jones in midfield revisited
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
What exactly do you think Duncan Edwards did? Jones' bullocking runs are more like DE than anything that modern "skill" players do.
If you saw the game you'll know that Spain didn't exactly take it lightly and that Jones put in an excellent (and highly disciplined) performance in midfield.
As an aside, it never ceases to amaze me that an English loss in a friendly is taken as just further confirmation of our poverty as a footballing nation, but a victory is always meaningless because "it was just a friendly". I've never been able to understand this attitude - I suppose pride in the country isn't an English thing anymore.
Unlike Spain, we have failed to produce the goods in these tournaments. It's easy to take a friendly as a one-off because it's how it feels. Qualifying campaigns are a better barometer to assess the progress of the team and the individuals. Then the tournaments is where you really have to show what you've got. The fact we are behind the rest of Europe in terms of tactics and other things makes it harder for England fans to have some pride. We exaggerate our expectations too much and we really shouldnt be expecting much until we show that English football as a whole is finally moving somewhere. Yet our media won't allow for such low expectations. Not easy to feel pride with a setup that continually fails to deliver.
The Olympics was another example. People were expressing pride but it was if they were surprised to do so. Thankfully the GB athletes' performances instilled more pride and people came away refreshed from simply good 'ol competition.
The Olympics was another example. People were expressing pride but it was if they were surprised to do so. Thankfully the GB athletes' performances instilled more pride and people came away refreshed from simply good 'ol competition.
Would be too deep IMO, if he was dropping back to mark Silva then that's virtually where Carrick sits - so we'd have vacated the centre of the pitch and ceded it to Barry and Toure.
Man marking Toure would be better I think, all their play still stems from hin, he makes the most passes by a distance.
Depends where people play, if Toure is deeper than we need to keep him occupied, trick is to not let space open in the middle, if it does he can use his power, if it's tight though, then he can't get the momentum as easily. I wouldn't man mark him personally, just make sure we keep it tight.
That's why Rooney is so key, he needs to be doing a job like Silva and getting in to areas to give the midfielders an out ball but also to drag back whoever is holding for City. Too often Rooney is either too high which creates a gap, or he comes too deep and so we lose the outball.
That's why Rooney is so key, he needs to be doing a job like Silva and getting in to areas to give the midfielders an out ball but also to drag back whoever is holding for City. Too often Rooney is either too high which creates a gap, or he comes too deep and so we lose the outball.
Yeah I wouldn't man mark him either Ash, just saying that instead of Beachryan suggesting we man mark Silva, Toure would be a better choice otherwise we would be too deep.
Possibly, guess could have Jones do a 'Park on Pirlo' type job. I just don't find Toure that creative in his play, more of a pivot (and they could presumably use Barry if he's unavailable).
Either way, we need to Fergie to pull out some type of tactical plan!
On form Toure's more than a pivot though
Yeah true, Silva's one of those players that's quite tough to man mark as well.
Despite his work-rate, Rooney also has trouble sticking to defensive responsibilities. He can do it but I've noticed how he'll start a game and man-mark the holding mid. As the game progresses, he does it less and less.
Yeah sometimes he can do that but I think that's partly because he tries to do too much tracking, I think he doesn't get the balance right and so he comes too deep, if he can get a better mix, whereby he's in a position to help and drag the dm away than it'll help a lot. We shouldn't need him to go overboard in the way he does, some of that is down to our weakness in the middle but some of it is him doing too much, he needs to drag the d/m away/ stay by him, so he's not an outball. What he tends to do though is go past him and get in alongside the midfield and so the d/m has no pressure on him.
Exactly what I have been saying for ages and ages. Nice when the big man agrees with you.
EDIT - Regarding Ferdinand and his contract, he's said numerous times he will stay as long as we want him. It'll be a formality to renew it on revised terms when we get closer to the time. He's matured and he hasn't got a decade of years to think about any more. He's got a family settled in the area and he clearly loves the club (as in the players the manager and the staff). I don't think he'll be looking to up sticks for another £10k a week. It's not like he's looking to move club to play every game either. He's managed well here.
Except that the article says a source said it not SAF.
As much as I don't fancy him at CB, I'd quite like to see him getting a run alongside a fit and in-form Vidic.
Seems a bit harsh hes not exactly played there much for us and he's come at a time when we've been bedding in a new young goalie and have had injuries to our two best defenders. Doubt there's much too the story in all honesty.
Bugger, they caught me out there. I always look for that stuff, I scanned the article and saw his name followed by the quote which is all I ever really look for
Smalling deserves a run at centre back more than Jones. Smalling, from form really, is heads and shoulders above Jones at the moment. Of course there's an age gap, but I'd go and hazard a guess and say that Smalling will eventually be the better of the two.
With that being said, I still think Jones' future is at centre back. I personally don't believe he has the technique to be a midfielder. He may have an engine, the same with Fletcher, but Fletcher has shown some flamboyance in the middle. Difficult to explain what I mean by that - Fletcher is obviously not a "step-over, nutmeg, flick over the head, rabona pass, goal" type of flamboyancy, but he still has some agility about him to make him get out of dodgy situations in the middle.
Jones seems to be too "robust" for the middle.
I may not be speaking sense - this tends to be a subject that I find difficult to elaborate my opinion on. I just don't see Jones as a midfielder - passing isn't good enough to put it simply.
With that being said, I still think Jones' future is at centre back. I personally don't believe he has the technique to be a midfielder. He may have an engine, the same with Fletcher, but Fletcher has shown some flamboyance in the middle. Difficult to explain what I mean by that - Fletcher is obviously not a "step-over, nutmeg, flick over the head, rabona pass, goal" type of flamboyancy, but he still has some agility about him to make him get out of dodgy situations in the middle.
Jones seems to be too "robust" for the middle.
I may not be speaking sense - this tends to be a subject that I find difficult to elaborate my opinion on. I just don't see Jones as a midfielder - passing isn't good enough to put it simply.
That must be annoying. I'm sure you have some good points. Agree with you on Jones. Just don't see the midfielder bit. I think that article is being reactionary. Did they not see Jones perform in Turkey? He was pretty good. And he was CB. Tossers.
It's certainly a weird one.
He's got great physical assets, great heart and can clearly play football.
The problem is that he is awfully naive as a defender and it would take some serious faith and acceptance of a few costly mistakes before he makes any progress. Can we afford those mistakes? Will he prove worth them?
So the logical step seems to be "put him in midfield" where we need a player and the mistakes are less costly but it really ignores the fact that it's our weakest position and it's not going to get any stronger by putting a 20 year old with no real craft to his game in there.
He's got great physical assets, great heart and can clearly play football.
The problem is that he is awfully naive as a defender and it would take some serious faith and acceptance of a few costly mistakes before he makes any progress. Can we afford those mistakes? Will he prove worth them?
So the logical step seems to be "put him in midfield" where we need a player and the mistakes are less costly but it really ignores the fact that it's our weakest position and it's not going to get any stronger by putting a 20 year old with no real craft to his game in there.
The article is a bit more specific than your usual made up pile of crap. Even though I've been a proponent of Jones in midfield, I'm reticent to believe this comes from anyone with enough knowledge of the situation to trust.
I'm sure many players that went on to be excellent center backs looked no better than Jones at age 20, he has years to master his positioning. He has one of the best in Rio to watch and learn from.
I like the idea of a center back who can bring the ball out into midfield as well, so if he learns some midfielder skill while he's improving as a center back, all the better.
I'm sure many players that went on to be excellent center backs looked no better than Jones at age 20, he has years to master his positioning. He has one of the best in Rio to watch and learn from.
I like the idea of a center back who can bring the ball out into midfield as well, so if he learns some midfielder skill while he's improving as a center back, all the better.
I still see Jones as a centre back, we say he's naive and makes mistakes but the one match he's actually played as a centre back this season in the champions league he actually looked good. I'm happy to give him game time there in matches we'll win and test the waters a little bit, to see how far he's come.
He did look very good against Galatasaray. I'm a big critic of him at centre back and think he'll be best in midfield, but he was pretty faultless that game, so maybe he developing well in training, or just maturing into the position. It was great to see.
The only reservation I have in making judgements from that game is that we played the diamond, so packed the midfield and were solid in front of the defence. The space was down the flanks where we didn't have the cover of the usual wingers, but the diamond is very tight through the middle.
If there has been a criticism of Jones at CB it is precisely when the ball gets played into the hole in front of the midfield and he goes charging out or gets caught of position. So the tactics in that game avoided a lot of that for him and he didn't feel the need to leave his line, so looked a lot more assured. Maybe it would be the same if there wasn't that central protection, but based on his games at CB last year when we are exposed centrally he seems to lose his head a bit.
The only reservation I have in making judgements from that game is that we played the diamond, so packed the midfield and were solid in front of the defence. The space was down the flanks where we didn't have the cover of the usual wingers, but the diamond is very tight through the middle.
If there has been a criticism of Jones at CB it is precisely when the ball gets played into the hole in front of the midfield and he goes charging out or gets caught of position. So the tactics in that game avoided a lot of that for him and he didn't feel the need to leave his line, so looked a lot more assured. Maybe it would be the same if there wasn't that central protection, but based on his games at CB last year when we are exposed centrally he seems to lose his head a bit.
Ridiculous article, which is no shocker considering how poor the British sports media are. Jones hasn't been able to establish himself as a CB because Evans and Smalling have been both been very, very good and Rio has surprisingly hung on at a high level longer than anyone though possible two seasons ago. Jones is only 20 years old, which is hardly even an infant in CB years. All of us shoud discount unnamed "Old Trafford sources". If Fergie himself comes out publicly criticizing Jones, I'll take THAT source seriously.
Maybe we should make him a left back...properly turn him into the new O'Shea. 
We've tried him at centre back, right back, defensive mid, centre mid...even behind the fecking striker...
Surely it's worth seeing what he's like there at some point. Obviously he's more suited to the right on paper given his crossing (which looks good) but he may well be quite a useful player to have cutting in on his stronger foot from the left. We're going to have to get round to the enormous task of replacing Evra at some point and he could be the answer for all we know.
We've tried him at centre back, right back, defensive mid, centre mid...even behind the fecking striker...Surely it's worth seeing what he's like there at some point. Obviously he's more suited to the right on paper given his crossing (which looks good) but he may well be quite a useful player to have cutting in on his stronger foot from the left. We're going to have to get round to the enormous task of replacing Evra at some point and he could be the answer for all we know.
Maybe we should make him a left back...properly turn him into the new O'Shea.
Surely it's worth seeing what he's like there at some point. Obviously he's more suited to the right on paper given his crossing (which looks good) but he may well be quite a useful player to have cutting in on his stronger foot from the left. We're going to have to get round to the enormous task of replacing Evra at some point and he could be the answer for all we know.
I'm game for experimenting with Jones out left, but what about Buttner? And what's the long term plan for Fabio? I doubt we'll ever see Jones at left back but you never know.
He's a CB. Patience is key for him; Rio and Vidic won't go on for ever.
I've been quite critical of Jones at times but I don't think its necessarily his fault. The constant shifting from position to position can't be easy on him. He's only had a handful of apps since he's been back and yet he's been played in CB, RB, ACM...different characteristics are needed for all three. After playing in RB for a few games where you're encouraged to go forward when the team is in possession then having to switch to CB where you need to stay back and be much more positionally disciplined can't be easy if its happening on a game by game basis.
Anyway I'm digressing. I only came in here to say I thought he put in some great crosses yesterday! He gets lots of balls into the box like Valencia used to! That said though I still think Rafael had earned his spot there now.
Anyway I'm digressing. I only came in here to say I thought he put in some great crosses yesterday! He gets lots of balls into the box like Valencia used to! That said though I still think Rafael had earned his spot there now.
Two things?
- Does anyone else think this and the other Phil Jones thread should just be merged.
- I do believe in Phil Jones the centre back. I haven't forgotten his partnership with Smalling at the Euro U21s a couple of years back or how well he started last season there. However, if Carrick is genuinely injured we may have to play Jones in midfield because with Ando also out we'll lose balance in midfield without some kind of defensive player in there.
Would love to see Fabio nail down the spot, definitely think he's got the talent. Undecided about Buttner currently - he's been quality sometimes, poor others. Really is up for grabs after Evra.
Was superb tonight in midfield.
Thought he was great defensively and certainly made a difference but I think he inhibited our game in possession as he doesn't have the natural movement of a midfielder to make himself available and his pass choice/execution isn't the best. But still great defensively and showed lots of potential there again.
Defensively he was superb. Still no midfielder for me. More like a Pepe type of player that you can use against superior opponents in midfield.
yeah, he was good on defense but loses posession too easily. against a team like madrid thogh,the positives outweigh the negatives
Really like him in this role in midfield. Still so young as well.
I really don't like him in midfield personally.
He's surprisingly fast.
Superb is an overstatement. He was good, similar to Carrick, but we should expect something more from both of our midfielders offensively when they get shared defensive responsibility like they did tonight.
Jones is clearly more uncomfortable under pressure than Carrick as well. Understandable given how much more experience Carrick has, but a fact nonetheless.
Jones is clearly more uncomfortable under pressure than Carrick as well. Understandable given how much more experience Carrick has, but a fact nonetheless.
This is about right I think. Crucial to us getting a good result tonight, though it does mean at the cost of possession and fluidity.
Loved him tonight. Really mature performance!!