PL fixtures & FA Cup Semifinals Apr 22-27

You sure you're not a Spurs fan...?

That's such a one-sided view of their failures, excusing every angle of it.

They've had 10 chances at a trophy over the last 2 seasons - 10 chances.

Either their players aren't that good, or there's something within the mentality of the club that sees them always fall short...

I don't believe it's the players.

I find this attitude a bit strange tbh.

We've had 10 opportunities at a trophy over the past 2 seasons? Really?

Which of those at any point would you have said at the beginning of the season that we were the favourites for? Or amongst the favourites? Did you have us down to even finish top 4 this season for example? Or last? To win the CL? Win the EL last season?

Which trophies do you think we should have won over the past two seasons? And by should, I mean that it is seen as an underachievement if you do not?
 
I find this attitude a bit strange tbh.

We've had 10 opportunities at a trophy over the past 2 seasons? Really?

Which of those at any point would you have said at the beginning of the season that we were the favourites for? Or amongst the favourites? Did you have us down to even finish top 4 this season for example? Or last? To win the CL? Win the EL last season?

Which trophies do you think we should have won over the past two seasons? And by should, I mean that it is seen as an underachievement if you do not?
Sound a bit like a Liverpool fan.

Of course you weren't favourites at the start of the season however it's clear you have one of, if not the best squad in the league and going trophyless this season has to be fairly disappointing if you are a Spurs fan. Finishing top 4 every season but winning nothing is ultimately meaningless however you are obviously improving under Poch so it's not a huge deal this year. Would expect a trophy over the next couple of seasons though looking at your current XI.
 
Sound a bit like a Liverpool fan.

Of course you weren't favourites at the start of the season however it's clear you have one of, if not the best squad in the league and going trophyless this season has to be fairly disappointing if you are a Spurs fan. Finishing top 4 every season but winning nothing is ultimately meaningless however you are obviously improving under Poch so it's not a huge deal this year. Would expect a trophy over the next couple of seasons though looking at your current XI.

Mate, you're talking to a fan of a club who not that long ago was happy finishing the season on a positive goal difference. We've made huge strides as you say and I think when people start comparing us to Chelsea or Man Utd in terms of trophies won over the past x years, I really do find that baffling.

I agree, finishing the season without a trophy will be disappointing. That is not to appreciate that to become a club that regularly wins trophies is not a process that happens overnight, even for clubs that end up being taken over by rich benefactors and we are on a steady upward trajectory, which I hope will end with trophies.

And I agree, I would really look to a trophy in the next few seasons with this squad. That however doesn't mean I would necessarily expect that (if that makes sense).
 
Can't pretend that I'm not incredibly disappointed with that.

I also can't help but feel that this match, within 90 minutes, encapsulates why Chelsea will win the double and why we will end the season with nothing.

We were the better team throughout the match, it was not a 4-2 match at all. Yet they are more effective, simply better at winning matches. At the crunch moments, they took their chances. They scored 4 from 5 shots on target, 8 overall. From a freekick, penalty and their first corner. That feels the same way as the season tbh. I feel for stretches we have been better, play better football etc. Yet they are just better at winning. They're very efficient.

Lampard got it completely spot on. You don't need to play well to win finals.

I don't really know how to change that tbh. I said even against Gent I felt they had better and more mature game management than we did. Buy lots of winners, splash the cash? I'm sure if we were taken over by a rich benefactor our 'bottling' would go pretty quickly. But we certainly need to win something, anything, soon.

Poch disappointed me today. The Son decision was baffling. That put us at an instant disadvantage from the beginning.

I just hope the players can focus on the last 6 games.

I find this attitude a bit strange tbh.

We've had 10 opportunities at a trophy over the past 2 seasons? Really?

Which of those at any point would you have said at the beginning of the season that we were the favourites for? Or amongst the favourites? Did you have us down to even finish top 4 this season for example? Or last? To win the CL? Win the EL last season?

Which trophies do you think we should have won over the past two seasons? And by should, I mean that it is seen as an underachievement if you do not?

You failed miserably in the Champions League but I honestly thought you would win the Europa League this season. I even thought you would do better than us at one point and dreaded coming up against your lot. But Pochettino fecked that up. So it pretty much serves you right.

Despite all the games we were playing, Jose treated every competition with the utmost respect and now we still have a chance of two trophies and still finishing in the top 4 (we should have been playing you today by the way too). You may finish second this year but we will still have had a better season than you.
 
I find this attitude a bit strange tbh.

We've had 10 opportunities at a trophy over the past 2 seasons? Really?

Which of those at any point would you have said at the beginning of the season that we were the favourites for? Or amongst the favourites? Did you have us down to even finish top 4 this season for example? Or last? To win the CL? Win the EL last season?

Which trophies do you think we should have won over the past two seasons? And by should, I mean that it is seen as an underachievement if you do not?

The thing is mate, without sarcasm, I find your attitude strange, and I think it's because of how I look at competitions as a Fergie era United fan - if you're one of the stronger teams in any competition - lets say among the top 4 strongest teams - you SHOULD win it. That's the level I hold Utd to, and all other teams too.

If the club and/or players have the same mindset as you do in this area, that's exactly why you keep falling short. And again, I don't mean that in a sarcastic manner, or a mean way.

These competitions, with varying degrees of importance I think your club should've been viewing from the viewpoint of 'we SHOULD win this'...

The League Cup both seasons - 2
The F.A Cup both seasons - 2
The Europa League both seasons - 2
The PL last season from the moment when it became clear you were only competing against Foxes - 1
The PL this season after challenging last - 1

That's 8 chances, big chances at getting a trophy - 1 fecking trophy - and that's how I would view it as a Utd fan.

Again, even though I'm criticizing your club, I really do mean what I'm saying, I'm not trying to get a dig in, as we all do a bit in this thread, but I mean this.

I've said it before, but I really do believe that until you look at the attitude and culture of 'nearly men' within the club as an actual, tangible, consistent factor in your failure, you will keep on doing it.

But no Spurs fan will ever go there. There's always, always another reason. Maybe the reason you keep avoiding is the one variable you'd be best looking into?
 
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The thing is mate, without sarcasm, I find your attitude strange, and I think it's because of how I look at competitions as a Fergie era United fan - if you're one of the stronger teams in any competition - lets say among the top 4 strongest teams - you SHOULD win it. That's the level I hold Utd to, and all other teams too.

If the club and/or players have the same mindset as you do in this area, that's exactly why you keep falling short. And again, I don't mean that in a sarcastic manner, or a mean way.

These competitions, with varying degrees of importance I think your club should've been viewing from the viewpoint of 'we SHOULD win this'...

The League Cup both seasons - 2
The F.A Cup both seasons - 2
The Europa League both seasons - 2
The PL last season from the moment when it became clear you were only competing against Foxes - 1
The PL this season after challenging last - 1

That's 8 chances, big chances at getting a trophy - 1 fecking trophy - and that's how I would view it as a Utd fan.

Again, even though I'm criticizing your club, I really do mean what I'm saying, I'm trying to get a dig in, as we all do a bit in this thread, but I mean this.

I've said it before, but I really do believe that until you look at the attitude and culture of 'nearly men' within the club as an actual, tangible, consistent factor in your failure, you will keep on doing it.

But no Spurs fan will ever go there. There's always, always another reason. Maybe the reason you keep avoiding is the one variable you'd be best looking into?

Fans don't determine results. Liverpool haven't won the league since 1990 despite their fans bigging them up every year. Newcastle haven't done anything since the war despite their fans expecting the world.
 
You failed miserably in the Champions League but I honestly thought you would win the Europa League this season. I even thought you would do better than us at one point and dreaded coming up against your lot. But Pochettino fecked that up. So it pretty much serves you right.

Despite all the games we were playing, Jose treated every competition with the utmost respect and now we still have a chance of two trophies and still finishing in the top 4 (we should have been playing you today by the way too). You may finish second this year but we will still have had a better season than you.

I'm not going to lie, I thought we would be amongst the favourites (on paper) for the EL but I was aware of our recent poor form in that competition. That was definitely a feck up.

I think comparing us to Man Utd is silly and that is what I was trying to allude to before. The difference in finances between the clubs is insane. of course you're going to be able to take every competition seriously. Expectations for each club are surely wildly different? Objectively Man Utd won the league, the biggest trophy in 2007-2008. Portsmouth only won the FA cup. Yet that season, I think I would have been happier as a lifelong Portsmouth fan than if I had been a lifelong Man Utd fan. You can't just conflate every different club's expectations and achievements.
 
The thing is mate, without sarcasm, I find your attitude strange, and I think it's because of how I look at competitions as a Fergie era United fan - if you're one of the stronger teams in any competition - lets say among the top 4 strongest teams - you SHOULD win it. That's the level I hold Utd to, and all other teams too.

If the club and/or players have the same mindset as you do in this area, that's exactly why you keep falling short. And again, I don't mean that in a sarcastic manner, or a mean way.

These competitions, with varying degrees of importance I think your club should've been viewing from the viewpoint of 'we SHOULD win this'...

The League Cup both seasons - 2
The F.A Cup both seasons - 2
The Europa League both seasons - 2
The PL last season from the moment when it became clear you were only competing against Foxes - 1
The PL this season after challenging last - 1

That's 8 chances, big chances at getting a trophy - 1 fecking trophy - and that's how I would view it as a Utd fan.

Again, even though I'm criticizing your club, I really do mean what I'm saying, I'm not trying to get a dig in, as we all do a bit in this thread, but I mean this.

I've said it before, but I really do believe that until you look at the attitude and culture of 'nearly men' within the club as an actual, tangible, consistent factor in your failure, you will keep on doing it.

But no Spurs fan will ever go there. There's always, always another reason. Maybe the reason you keep avoiding is the one variable you'd be best looking into?

Fair enough. As I said, I'm speaking as a fan who, regardless of any history, has spent most of his Tottenham supporting days wondering whether we'll finish in the top half and whether we'll end the season with positive or negative goal difference. Of course there is going to be a mismatch in expectations between us.

And it goes without saying that we don't have a Fergie era Man Utd squad nor do we have Ferguson managing us.

I don't think you can say the club and players have the same attitude as I do. You can't say Poch, AVB, Redknapp and Ramos are all the same in terms of mentality?

And I know you're not trying to get a dig in.

I will also say as a disclaimer that I am naturally quite a pragmatist and have always been one for judging things through cold hard facts, rather than emotions.

In fairness, whether that is a factor or not, I don't think the fans mentality on it will have any bearing on what the chairman, manager or players do.

So if you think our failures are solely down to the mentality within the club, as opposed to a whole myriad of factors (of which that may be one), what do you think can be done to change it then?
 
I believe this attitude runs through the club and down to the fans. Thought I made that clear.

There is no good acting the big bollocks if you can't back it up. When Villa went on a large spending spree when Randy Lerner took over they touched the top 4 but never broke in. They got to a final and semi finals but didn't win. He saw his investment as a waste and pulled out from his project and instead lead them to ruins.

Tottenham have closed the gap to the top clubs without financial backhands which was the main aim. Now they're in a position where they can challenge with conviction but still have some way to go before becoming favourites. That's fine. It's a process to build a club up in this day and age. Whether the key people stick around for it is yet to be seen so no point speculating either way when we don't know the mechanics behind the scene.
 
I'm not going to lie, I thought we would be amongst the favourites (on paper) for the EL but I was aware of our recent poor form in that competition. That was definitely a feck up.

I think comparing us to Man Utd is silly and that is what I was trying to allude to before. The difference in finances between the clubs is insane. of course you're going to be able to take every competition seriously. Expectations for each club are surely wildly different? Objectively Man Utd won the league, the biggest trophy in 2007-2008. Portsmouth only won the FA cup. Yet that season, I think I would have been happier as a lifelong Portsmouth fan than if I had been a lifelong Man Utd fan. You can't just conflate every different club's expectations and achievements.

You chose the wrong season to make your point since we also won the CL that season :D

But I agree that people are being a bit harsh on Spurs. Majority of people on here did even not think you lot would even finish in top 4, so it's a bit odd. I will say if you don't make progress in next 2 seasons then this kind of criticism would be warranted.
 
I'm not going to lie, I thought we would be amongst the favourites (on paper) for the EL but I was aware of our recent poor form in that competition. That was definitely a feck up.

I think comparing us to Man Utd is silly and that is what I was trying to allude to before. The difference in finances between the clubs is insane. of course you're going to be able to take every competition seriously. Expectations for each club are surely wildly different? Objectively Man Utd won the league, the biggest trophy in 2007-2008. Portsmouth only won the FA cup. Yet that season, I think I would have been happier as a lifelong Portsmouth fan than if I had been a lifelong Man Utd fan. You can't just conflate every different club's expectations and achievements.

I don't understand where you're coming from. I'm not comparing you to United...or any other club for that matter. Finances have nothing to do with it. Our positions over the last three years and Leicester's last season will verify that.

All I'm saying is that with the Europa League this season, you had the chance to have a real go at it but Poch didn't take it seriously enough. That's nothing to do with finances. Liverpool weren't in Europe but they got knocked out of two competitions in a week....again because Klopp didn't take the competitions seriously. Nothing to do with finances.

It's been a struggle taking on four competitions and we've lost players along the way just like everyone else. But we've already had the best season out of the Premier League so far. Spurs had a real chance for silverware and they fecked up.
 
Can't pretend that I'm not incredibly disappointed with that.

I also can't help but feel that this match, within 90 minutes, encapsulates why Chelsea will win the double and why we will end the season with nothing.

We were the better team throughout the match, it was not a 4-2 match at all. Yet they are more effective, simply better at winning matches. At the crunch moments, they took their chances. They scored 4 from 5 shots on target, 8 overall. From a freekick, penalty and their first corner. That feels the same way as the season tbh. I feel for stretches we have been better, play better football etc. Yet they are just better at winning. They're very efficient.

Lampard got it completely spot on. You don't need to play well to win finals.

I don't really know how to change that tbh. I said even against Gent I felt they had better and more mature game management than we did. Buy lots of winners, splash the cash? I'm sure if we were taken over by a rich benefactor our 'bottling' would go pretty quickly. But we certainly need to win something, anything, soon.

Poch disappointed me today. The Son decision was baffling. That put us at an instant disadvantage from the beginning.

I just hope the players can focus on the last 6 games.

Don't be too harsh on your team, it is youth the key factor. If Spurs are able to keep their core for 2-3 years more and complete the development of the very numerous skillful players, you will become a winning force domestically and abroad.
 
I don't understand where you're coming from. I'm not comparing you to United...or any other club for that matter. Finances have nothing to do with it. Our positions over the last three years and Leicester's last season will verify that.

All I'm saying is that with the Europa League this season, you had the chance to have a real go at it but Poch didn't take it seriously enough. That's nothing to do with finances. Liverpool weren't in Europe but they got knocked out of two competitions in a week....again because Klopp didn't take the competitions seriously. Nothing to do with finances.

It's been a struggle taking on four competitions and we've lost players along the way just like everyone else. But we've already had the best season out of the Premier League so far. Spurs had a real chance for silverware and they fecked up.

Correct. Spurs were kicked out out of Europa League not because of their poor form there, but because of their lacking trophy hunting attitude or mentality. Chelsea in 2012/13 was in the same situation as Totenham this season. We were relegated to Europa League and top 4 was a doubt. But we tried to manage to get both and we did it. In terms of finance, we won some nice cups in late 1990s despite of being in a huge debt.

United is trying to get both top 4 and Europa League too, despite of already winning a cup this season. Spurs should start moving a head and looking for trophies, not just a good position.
 
Fair enough. As I said, I'm speaking as a fan who, regardless of any history, has spent most of his Tottenham supporting days wondering whether we'll finish in the top half and whether we'll end the season with positive or negative goal difference. Of course there is going to be a mismatch in expectations between us.

And it goes without saying that we don't have a Fergie era Man Utd squad nor do we have Ferguson managing us.

I don't think you can say the club and players have the same attitude as I do. You can't say Poch, AVB, Redknapp and Ramos are all the same in terms of mentality?

And I know you're not trying to get a dig in.

I will also say as a disclaimer that I am naturally quite a pragmatist and have always been one for judging things through cold hard facts, rather than emotions.

In fairness, whether that is a factor or not, I don't think the fans mentality on it will have any bearing on what the chairman, manager or players do.

So if you think our failures are solely down to the mentality within the club, as opposed to a whole myriad of factors (of which that may be one), what do you think can be done to change it then?

Really good post, and most of your points remind me to your mindset, and I do understand why it's a different mindset.

Regarding the bold, I'm a firm believer that attitude runs from the top down, and that institutions will often end up reflecting the mindset of their ownership even if they don't want to. Few examples...

Fergie's United - A pressure cooker environment in the stadium based solely on winning, pressurizing opponents and almost giving other teams the 'hairdryer treatment' on the pitch via the relentless, wave after wave of attack. And he did this with team after team, it came from his mindset.

Abramovich Chelsea - What's the word people use to describe Chelsea over and over again during his reign...? 'Ruthless'. Read the guy's backstory - 'ruthless'. It makes it's way down onto the pitch but it comes from the decisions that are shaping the club from the top down.

Post Fergie United - people who mean well, but know very little about football but know a lot about money and 'branding'... and what does United look like now? Directionless football, lots of money spent, lots of money in, lots of wages spent, branding-crazy.

Modern Arsenal - Message from the top - "If you get Top 4 we're happy", and then slowly that culture spreads throughout the whole club! Even if the players themselves don't consciously sit around thinking Top 4 is good enough, they just can't help but to find themselves mirroring the attitude.

Now, I'm not saying that Levy is a 'loser', or anything like that. In fact, I respect Levy greatly as a businessman. But somewhere, around the top of the club there needs to be a strong sentiment of, "this ISN'T good enough", rather than back-patting for coming close, a sentiment of "we should have won that trophy", rather than acknowledging any accomplishment below that.

Think about this, now very regular, media phrase of 'credit to Spurs' - how many times have we all heard that phrase over the last 3 seasons? That's another issue.

'Credit to Spurs' is NOT your friend, it's just patronizing to you as a club. You guys need a mindset of 'feck off, we don't want credit, we want a trophy, now'.

I just feel that until that mindset, described above, begins to permeate throughout the whole club, on all levels, the falling short will continue.
 
Really good post, and most of your points remind me to your mindset, and I do understand why it's a different mindset.

Regarding the bold, I'm a firm believer that attitude runs from the top down, and that institutions will often end up reflecting the mindset of their ownership even if they don't want to. Few examples...

Fergie's United - A pressure cooker environment in the stadium based solely on winning, pressurizing opponents and almost giving other teams the 'hairdryer treatment' on the pitch via the relentless, wave after wave of attack. And he did this with team after team, it came from his mindset.

Abramovich Chelsea - What's the word people use to describe Chelsea over and over again during his reign...? 'Ruthless'. Read the guy's backstory - 'ruthless'. It makes it's way down onto the pitch but it comes from the decisions that are shaping the club from the top down.

Post Fergie United - people who mean well, but know very little about football but know a lot about money and 'branding'... and what does United look like now? Directionless football, lots of money spent, lots of money in, lots of wages spent, branding-crazy.

Modern Arsenal - Message from the top - "If you get Top 4 we're happy", and then slowly that culture spreads throughout the whole club! Even if the players themselves don't consciously sit around thinking Top 4 is good enough, they just can't help but to find themselves mirroring the attitude.

Now, I'm not saying that Levy is a 'loser', or anything like that. In fact, I respect Levy greatly as a businessman. But somewhere, around the top of the club there needs to be a strong sentiment of, "this ISN'T good enough", rather than back-patting for coming close, a sentiment of "we should have won that trophy", rather than acknowledging any accomplishment below that.

Think about this, now very regular, media phrase of 'credit to Spurs' - how many times have we all heard that over the 3 seasons? That's another issue.

'Credit to Spurs' is NOT your friend, it's just patronizing to you as a club. You guys need a mindset of 'feck off, we don't want credit, we want a trophy, now'.

I just feel that until that mindset, described above, begins to permeate throughout the whole club, on all levels, the falling short will continue.

I agree with this. As a City fan I'll use us as an example but it can apply to Spurs. its something that dogs our club too and something Pep has spoken about "winning mentality and self belief".

I know we've won 2 titles but on a whole we're not serial winners and we never kicked on from two dramatic title wins because we lack that ruthless mentality.

Theres a nervousness in Spurs, City, Arsenal and Liverpool that's not in Chelsea and United when going for the prize. The first 4 teams can blow teams away but if a game is 0-0 with alot on the line and 5 minutes to play those 4 including my own beloved club; you can't wager on the winning goal, it could go either for or against them.

The great United teams and current Chelsea (the serial winners who retain titles), you just know if that goal is coming more often than not its coming for them.
Today was an example of it, Spurs controlled much of the game second half and with their first real chance Chelsea have the confidence/ruthlessness and killer instinct to get the job done. They did it to us at City in the league recently.

Its something Real have made a habit of under Zidane, when things are tight and close, the winners step up where the less confident flounder.
 
Really good post, and most of your points remind me to your mindset, and I do understand why it's a different mindset.

Regarding the bold, I'm a firm believer that attitude runs from the top down, and that institutions will often end up reflecting the mindset of their ownership even if they don't want to. Few examples...

Fergie's United - A pressure cooker environment in the stadium based solely on winning, pressurizing opponents and almost giving other teams the 'hairdryer treatment' on the pitch via the relentless, wave after wave of attack. And he did this with team after team, it came from his mindset.

Abramovich Chelsea - What's the word people use to describe Chelsea over and over again during his reign...? 'Ruthless'. Read the guy's backstory - 'ruthless'. It makes it's way down onto the pitch but it comes from the decisions that are shaping the club from the top down.

Post Fergie United - people who mean well, but know very little about football but know a lot about money and 'branding'... and what does United look like now? Directionless football, lots of money spent, lots of money in, lots of wages spent, branding-crazy.

Modern Arsenal - Message from the top - "If you get Top 4 we're happy", and then slowly that culture spreads throughout the whole club! Even if the players themselves don't consciously sit around thinking Top 4 is good enough, they just can't help but to find themselves mirroring the attitude.

Now, I'm not saying that Levy is a 'loser', or anything like that. In fact, I respect Levy greatly as a businessman. But somewhere, around the top of the club there needs to be a strong sentiment of, "this ISN'T good enough", rather than back-patting for coming close, a sentiment of "we should have won that trophy", rather than acknowledging any accomplishment below that.

Think about this, now very regular, media phrase of 'credit to Spurs' - how many times have we all heard that phrase over the last 3 seasons? That's another issue.

'Credit to Spurs' is NOT your friend, it's just patronizing to you as a club. You guys need a mindset of 'feck off, we don't want credit, we want a trophy, now'.

I just feel that until that mindset, described above, begins to permeate throughout the whole club, on all levels, the falling short will continue.
While I agree with your points here regarding the mentality aspect. I don't think Tottenham & Levy are in position to push for winning. Yes it reflects on the team. What I meant is they're happy to just be in inclusion (top 4), and only push on when the momentum is on their side, because they don't have the resource for top players. They're trying to develop their team, a coach who is also developing.

It does sound like Arsenal but they have no other choice or they risk doing a Leeds with their resource in high stake game. They have a stadium project to deal with. IMO though the stadium project is terrible idea at the moment. As a club they need to win things with the momentum they have with the team & the coach. A tight budget would limit their team growth, and it's a big risk coming out of the project with same momentum given thing can change fast in football. Arsenal had good challenging team base pre Emirates project, yet they came out of it different team & hasn't recovered since.
 
Giving away a stupid free-kick, giving away a ridiculous penalty and giving Hazard stupid amounts of space on the edge of the box.
The first two mistakes they responded and cancelled them out, while the Hazard goal the ball fell to him after a header out in the box from a well defended corner and he hit it cleanly to the far corner through a bunch of bodies. I guess if you're being extra critical someone should have been on him the whole time but I wouldn't call it a bottle job at all.
 
Spurs have not bottled anything today. They've come from behind twice and then lost to a pretty decent side.

I agree I thought Chelsea got out played and scored a screamer and from 3 set pieces. Conte came up short and individual brilliance pulled him through. Nothing to do with tactics from him.
 
You chose the wrong season to make your point since we also won the CL that season :D

But I agree that people are being a bit harsh on Spurs. Majority of people on here did even not think you lot would even finish in top 4, so it's a bit odd. I will say if you don't make progress in next 2 seasons then this kind of criticism would be warranted.

Ha fair enough, very good point. Though I'm sure you appreciate the sentiment!

Agreed on the second point. It may well have been more beneficial to the club's long term future if this does happen but if (for example) Poch and the team qualify for the CL next two upcoming seasons (after this one) without winning anything, his five years would be classed as a disappointment imo. Not because we should be going into seasons thinking we should win the league but because that is how teams are remembered.
 
Don't be too harsh on your team, it is youth the key factor. If Spurs are able to keep their core for 2-3 years more and complete the development of the very numerous skillful players, you will become a winning force domestically and abroad.

Very true and thanks, thats the hope! As I said earlier, this whole process has been a long evolution and things like Davids had a big impact at the time. I wonder whether we need another signing like that. Someone with more winning experience.
 
I don't understand where you're coming from. I'm not comparing you to United...or any other club for that matter. Finances have nothing to do with it. Our positions over the last three years and Leicester's last season will verify that.

All I'm saying is that with the Europa League this season, you had the chance to have a real go at it but Poch didn't take it seriously enough. That's nothing to do with finances. Liverpool weren't in Europe but they got knocked out of two competitions in a week....again because Klopp didn't take the competitions seriously. Nothing to do with finances.

It's been a struggle taking on four competitions and we've lost players along the way just like everyone else. But we've already had the best season out of the Premier League so far. Spurs had a real chance for silverware and they fecked up.

Surely you did when you said you've had a better season than us (which I would agree with when you win the EL, which you will). All I was saying was when you look at the finances of the clubs, the sizes and quality of the squad players, it is not a surprise that Man Utd can approach every competition with more force. Finances over a prolonged period decides all surely? Leicester had a one off season, in which they completely ignored all other competitions and in which a perfect storm came together. They won't repeat that. Similarly, we all know that Man Utd will eventually get to the top again. Not because the club is making amazing decisions in recruitment necessarily but because there is too much money and stature not to.

As I said earlier, you won't find argument from me that we should have done better in the EL.
 
Really good post, and most of your points remind me to your mindset, and I do understand why it's a different mindset.

Regarding the bold, I'm a firm believer that attitude runs from the top down, and that institutions will often end up reflecting the mindset of their ownership even if they don't want to. Few examples...

Fergie's United - A pressure cooker environment in the stadium based solely on winning, pressurizing opponents and almost giving other teams the 'hairdryer treatment' on the pitch via the relentless, wave after wave of attack. And he did this with team after team, it came from his mindset.

Abramovich Chelsea - What's the word people use to describe Chelsea over and over again during his reign...? 'Ruthless'. Read the guy's backstory - 'ruthless'. It makes it's way down onto the pitch but it comes from the decisions that are shaping the club from the top down.

Post Fergie United - people who mean well, but know very little about football but know a lot about money and 'branding'... and what does United look like now? Directionless football, lots of money spent, lots of money in, lots of wages spent, branding-crazy.

Modern Arsenal - Message from the top - "If you get Top 4 we're happy", and then slowly that culture spreads throughout the whole club! Even if the players themselves don't consciously sit around thinking Top 4 is good enough, they just can't help but to find themselves mirroring the attitude.

Now, I'm not saying that Levy is a 'loser', or anything like that. In fact, I respect Levy greatly as a businessman. But somewhere, around the top of the club there needs to be a strong sentiment of, "this ISN'T good enough", rather than back-patting for coming close, a sentiment of "we should have won that trophy", rather than acknowledging any accomplishment below that.

Think about this, now very regular, media phrase of 'credit to Spurs' - how many times have we all heard that phrase over the last 3 seasons? That's another issue.

'Credit to Spurs' is NOT your friend, it's just patronizing to you as a club. You guys need a mindset of 'feck off, we don't want credit, we want a trophy, now'.

I just feel that until that mindset, described above, begins to permeate throughout the whole club, on all levels, the falling short will continue.

That is fair enough. Can't say I agree with all you've said but I see where you're coming from.

The final point I have to say though is completely spot on and I can't agree more really. I've seen a few Spurs fans today say they're 'proud' of the team. There is nothing to be proud about. A few years ago maybe, little plucky Spurs failing valiantly in the SF. We went into that game 4 points behind this team. To concede 4 for the first time this season (in fact, to concede more than 2 for the first time this whole season), wtf? To play well and be undone with pretty much every attack of Chelsea's? Yeah they could bring on Costa and Hazard etc etc but for me, that wasn't something to be proud of.

I just hope the players use these disappointments in a positive manner. Nothing better to motivate you to win than having experienced the horrible taste of defeat.
 
That is fair enough. Can't say I agree with all you've said but I see where you're coming from.

The final point I have to say though is completely spot on and I can't agree more really. I've seen a few Spurs fans today say they're 'proud' of the team. There is nothing to be proud about. A few years ago maybe, little plucky Spurs failing valiantly in the SF. We went into that game 4 points behind this team. To concede 4 for the first time this season (in fact, to concede more than 2 for the first time this whole season), wtf? To play well and be undone with pretty much every attack of Chelsea's? Yeah they could bring on Costa and Hazard etc etc but for me, that wasn't something to be proud of.

I just hope the players use these disappointments in a positive manner. Nothing better to motivate you to win than having experienced the horrible taste of defeat.

That's what I'm talking about, yeah.

On the one hand you could say that it takes time to instill a winning mentality and Spurs are gradually getting there, but then, look at Foxes - one chance at the ultimate in English footy and they just took it, with no build up, no practice at winning things etc.

One thing I do think needs saying, is that you're a really good poster mate, and to show such class in your messages after a big defeat is real marker of character, so I hope you enjoy the title run-in, whichever way it goes.
 
Really good post, and most of your points remind me to your mindset, and I do understand why it's a different mindset.

Regarding the bold, I'm a firm believer that attitude runs from the top down, and that institutions will often end up reflecting the mindset of their ownership even if they don't want to. Few examples...

Fergie's United - A pressure cooker environment in the stadium based solely on winning, pressurizing opponents and almost giving other teams the 'hairdryer treatment' on the pitch via the relentless, wave after wave of attack. And he did this with team after team, it came from his mindset.

Abramovich Chelsea - What's the word people use to describe Chelsea over and over again during his reign...? 'Ruthless'. Read the guy's backstory - 'ruthless'. It makes it's way down onto the pitch but it comes from the decisions that are shaping the club from the top down.

Post Fergie United - people who mean well, but know very little about football but know a lot about money and 'branding'... and what does United look like now? Directionless football, lots of money spent, lots of money in, lots of wages spent, branding-crazy.

Modern Arsenal - Message from the top - "If you get Top 4 we're happy", and then slowly that culture spreads throughout the whole club! Even if the players themselves don't consciously sit around thinking Top 4 is good enough, they just can't help but to find themselves mirroring the attitude.

Now, I'm not saying that Levy is a 'loser', or anything like that. In fact, I respect Levy greatly as a businessman. But somewhere, around the top of the club there needs to be a strong sentiment of, "this ISN'T good enough", rather than back-patting for coming close, a sentiment of "we should have won that trophy", rather than acknowledging any accomplishment below that.

Think about this, now very regular, media phrase of 'credit to Spurs' - how many times have we all heard that phrase over the last 3 seasons? That's another issue.

'Credit to Spurs' is NOT your friend, it's just patronizing to you as a club. You guys need a mindset of 'feck off, we don't want credit, we want a trophy, now'.

I just feel that until that mindset, described above, begins to permeate throughout the whole club, on all levels, the falling short will continue.
This an excellent post and rings very true. Your surmise of Roman's Chelsea is spot on. It's funny as it could've been Roman's Spurs. We are known as a ruthless club due to our ruthless owner. It goes down all the way to how we play - always have been efficient, ruthless side. Even earlier today, it was the same. We scored 4 goals in a very ruthless manner - Matic's goal encapsulates what Chelsea are all about. Nemanja was having a terrible game before that but it doesn't matter - expectations have to be met. He then delivered the dagger.
 
Really good post, and most of your points remind me to your mindset, and I do understand why it's a different mindset.

Regarding the bold, I'm a firm believer that attitude runs from the top down, and that institutions will often end up reflecting the mindset of their ownership even if they don't want to. Few examples...

Fergie's United - A pressure cooker environment in the stadium based solely on winning, pressurizing opponents and almost giving other teams the 'hairdryer treatment' on the pitch via the relentless, wave after wave of attack. And he did this with team after team, it came from his mindset.

Abramovich Chelsea - What's the word people use to describe Chelsea over and over again during his reign...? 'Ruthless'. Read the guy's backstory - 'ruthless'. It makes it's way down onto the pitch but it comes from the decisions that are shaping the club from the top down.

Post Fergie United - people who mean well, but know very little about football but know a lot about money and 'branding'... and what does United look like now? Directionless football, lots of money spent, lots of money in, lots of wages spent, branding-crazy.

Modern Arsenal - Message from the top - "If you get Top 4 we're happy", and then slowly that culture spreads throughout the whole club! Even if the players themselves don't consciously sit around thinking Top 4 is good enough, they just can't help but to find themselves mirroring the attitude.

Now, I'm not saying that Levy is a 'loser', or anything like that. In fact, I respect Levy greatly as a businessman. But somewhere, around the top of the club there needs to be a strong sentiment of, "this ISN'T good enough", rather than back-patting for coming close, a sentiment of "we should have won that trophy", rather than acknowledging any accomplishment below that.

Think about this, now very regular, media phrase of 'credit to Spurs' - how many times have we all heard that phrase over the last 3 seasons? That's another issue.

'Credit to Spurs' is NOT your friend, it's just patronizing to you as a club. You guys need a mindset of 'feck off, we don't want credit, we want a trophy, now'.

I just feel that until that mindset, described above, begins to permeate throughout the whole club, on all levels, the falling short will continue.
africanspur is probably the ONLY Spurs fan I respect, even though I've never met him before in person.

Have you seen the Spurs fans generally in London? They always thought that they are the best club in London, especially North London despite winning nada. Coming with every excuse in the book. "Rose didn't play today, if he did we would had smashed you" etc. The ignorance in them is unreal. They are more like GlastonSpur.
 
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So much football today...

Celtic/Rangers,United/Burnley,Arsenal/City,Lyon/Monaco,Madrid/Barcelona
 
So much football today...
Celtic/Rangers,United/Burnley,Arsenal/City,Lyon/Monaco,Madrid/Barcelona
Plus the Birmingham derby, which is always good for some yummy hate and incident, love it! If we were friends, I'd invite you round. Coming to the end of the season now. Got to enjoy these days.
 
Great sunday!
Only problem is I can't watch them all :(

Plus the Birmingham derby, which is always good for some yummy hate and incident, love it! If we were friends, I'd invite you round. Coming to the end of the season now. Got to enjoy these days.
Yes, another good game! Shame it's on the same time as Celtic/Rangers.

"If we were friends..."?! I'm hurt.
 
Only problem is I can't watch them all :(
Yes, another good game! Shame it's on the same time as Celtic/Rangers.
"If we were friends..."?! I'm hurt.
Just do what every one else on these boards does, split your monitor up between illegal streams.