Quique Flores on Premier League struggles in Europe.

[prarek]

Interesting viewpoints. Fabregas also said there is more space in the premier league.


“It’s a question of space,” he said. “A Spanish-style footballer, like [David] Silva or [Mesut] Özil, if they can find two seconds to think, will see the pass because there’ll be space. … In Spain, reducing space is worked on more. In England, it’s fast, but you can find that space if you are a good player.”

http://soccer.nbcsports.com/2013/10...fferences-between-premier-league-and-la-liga/

 

[Lay]

Ogbonna has said there's more pressure in Serie A:


Everything is more relaxed,” Ogbonna added.

“There isn’t the pressure of Serie A.

"We [Italians] work more though, training sessions every day and double sessions once a week, whereas here we often rest on Wednesday.

“There’s more respect on the pitch."

 

[JPRouve]

Ah, the ol "uncultured English bastards" line

It has nothing to do with England, unculture or bastardism. Plenty of continental clubs play like that, the only problem is that when these teams face a top team they lose.
For example Lille under Garcia, they were destroying everyone in the league but they were embarrassing in CL.

 

[Lay]

Interesting viewpoints. Fabregas also said there is more space in the premier league.


“It’s a question of space,” he said. “A Spanish-style footballer, like [David] Silva or [Mesut] Özil, if they can find two seconds to think, will see the pass because there’ll be space. … In Spain, reducing space is worked on more. In England, it’s fast, but you can find that space if you are a good player.”

http://soccer.nbcsports.com/2013/10...fferences-between-premier-league-and-la-liga/

I honestly thought this was common knowledge. The pace of the Premier League means more gaps appear, meaning more space. In Spain, teams defend more as a unit and restrict space.

 

[prarek]

I honestly thought this was common knowledge. The pace of the Premier League means more gaps appear, meaning more space. In Spain, teams defend more as a unit and restrict space.

It should be a common knowledge not just in football but any team sports. In basketball it is a common knowledge. The faster a game is the more open it will be and the more space there will be. However i still see a lot of PL fans who don't watch other leagues saying there is more space in Spain. It is simply not true. It defies common logic.

 

[Crossie]

If these quotes are true it shows a complete lack of understanding of the Premier League from the man. Quite poor from him really.

I'm sure he'll happily take your wisdom if you were to offer it to him. Especially the number of Golden Boy Award winners from EPL clubs of the last 20 years will convince him that he's no understanding of the league whatsoever.

 

[Sarni]

If these quotes are true it shows a complete lack of understanding of the Premier League from the man. Quite poor from him really.

Hahahhahahahhahahahah

 

[Theonas]

I'd argue that the English dominance in Europe fell together with an incredibly strong set of defenders in English teams that allowed that style to succeed. English teams did adapt a bit for Europe during that time, played less open in the CL than in the league. But the transition from the 'usual' style in the league to the counterattacking style in Europe wasn't that big. Now no English club has that sort of defense to build upon. If you can't sustain the pressure when sitting deep, there's no success in sitting deep.

And it was rather easy for English clubs to build these defenses because every club had a strong homegrown core of defenders with the likes of Ferdinand, Campbell, Cole, Terry, Carragher providing a great foundation. Compare it to what's the foundation in the English top clubs right now and the problem becomes pretty obvious, so English clubs need to find other solutions to adapt to the European game.

I very much agree with this. It surprises me how it is forgotten the type of dominance English teams have displayed over Europe. We did not produce a team like Bayern today, let alone Barcelona's. We did not produce teams that were outplaying the best of the continent but ones that were solid enough to stop them. Our best side maybe in history could not outplay Barcelona's worst over the past decade in 2008 and had to sit deep and defend for its life. As you rightly point out, this was mainly because English teams had a solid base of defenders that it enabled them to get away with sitting deep. One can argue that there is nothing wrong with that but that's not the point. The point is English teams were not particularly good at the strategic positional game Flores is talking about. The defenders disappeared and the star game changers like Ronaldo and we immediately went back to where we were in the '90s. I myself love the English game but there is no denying for me that it asks too much from the players because it doesn't help them with the emphasis on strategy and positions you see in the continent.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I'd argue that the English dominance in Europe fell together with an incredibly strong set of defenders in English teams that allowed that style to succeed. English teams did adapt a bit for Europe during that time, played less open in the CL than in the league. But the transition from the 'usual' style in the league to the counterattacking style in Europe wasn't that big. Now no English club has that sort of defense to build upon. If you can't sustain the pressure when sitting deep, there's no success in sitting deep.

And it was rather easy for English clubs to build these defenses because every club had a strong homegrown core of defenders with the likes of Ferdinand, Campbell, Cole, Terry, Carragher providing a great foundation. Compare it to what's the foundation in the English top clubs right now and the problem becomes pretty obvious, so English clubs need to find other solutions to adapt to the European game.

I don't think it was just defenders. When the English league ruled Europe recently all the top clubs had several world class English players, money to buy top foreign imports and top class managers. Now that strong English core has disappeared while Barca and Madrid dominate the transfer market, with Bayern and PSG providing strong competition for top players too.

I think a strong core of homegrown players is crucial though. Look at Spain in recent times and Bayern's success these past few years.

 

[redmeister]

I've got a feeling the tactical differences would add up to absolutely sod all if the English clubs had Messi, Neymar, Bale and Ronaldo etc. The simple fact is, it's been a while since an English club had the best group of individuals. When you add to that the relentless drain of the Premier League it pretty much explains everything. I don't believe for a second the shape of European football would have been the same over the last decade if it wasn't for certain brilliant players being at certain clubs.

Had Bale and Suarez both joined the same Prem club, that club would be challenging in Europe.

At the moment we don't have the likes of Ferdinand, King, Terry, Vidic, Carvalho, Campbell and so on in the Prem. We don't have any Vieira, Keane, Scholes, Gerrard and Lampards etc. There are no Ronaldo's, Bergkamps or Zolas. But these things go in cycles and with the money on the Prem, we are bound to so an increase in quality, whilst the big Spanish clubs are bound to feel the effects as Ronaldo and Messi age.

 

[adexkola]

You talkin 'bout me?

I had to do it.

 

[NoLogo]

I'd argue that the English dominance in Europe fell together with an incredibly strong set of defenders in English teams that allowed that style to succeed. English teams did adapt a bit for Europe during that time, played less open in the CL than in the league. But the transition from the 'usual' style in the league to the counterattacking style in Europe wasn't that big. Now no English club has that sort of defense to build upon. If you can't sustain the pressure when sitting deep, there's no success in sitting deep.

And it was rather easy for English clubs to build these defenses because every club had a strong homegrown core of defenders with the likes of Ferdinand, Campbell, Cole, Terry, Carragher providing a great foundation. Compare it to what's the foundation in the English top clubs right now and the problem becomes pretty obvious, so English clubs need to find other solutions to adapt to the European game.

I agree the top PL teams aren't as strong anymore as they used to be. The best players usually left in the direction of Spain in the last couple of years. The thing is with all the money in the PL and the money PL spend compared to other league it's quite baffling that there isn't a single club in the league that can compete with the best teams in Europe. Somehow maybe it's worth looking at the squad building process of the top teams compared to how the best do it?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I agree the top PL teams aren't as strong anymore as they used to be. The best players usually left in the direction of Spain in the last couple of years. The thing is with all the money in the PL and the money PL spend compared to other league it's quite baffling that there isn't a single club in the league that can compete with the best teams in Europe. Somehow maybe it's worth looking at the squad building process of the top teams compared to how the best do it?

Barca and Real do it with unparalleled pulling power and top level revenues. Bayern were in the wilderness, relatively speaking, for a number of years but with the help of an exceptional group German national side players they are consolidating their position with some relatively shrewd signings. PSG is all about Paris living and lots and lots of Euros.

 

[JPRouve]

I agree the top PL teams aren't as strong anymore as they used to be. The best players usually left in the direction of Spain in the last couple of years. The thing is with all the money in the PL and the money PL spend compared to other league it's quite baffling that there isn't a single club in the league that can compete with the best teams in Europe. Somehow maybe it's worth looking at the squad building process of the top teams compared to how the best do it?

English football lacks world class homegrown players. In the case of United we haven't replaced Ferdinand, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs and Carrick all our players are a downgrade.

 

[clarkydaz]

For an alternative reading (from a manager who has won both leagues) I'd look at this quote.

"So I would look to a Spanish team - Barcelona, Real Madrid—I would look to a German team - Bayern Munich—and I would say I think they arrive in the key moment of the season in better conditions than other clubs." - Jose Mourinho.

There seems to be two schools of thought on this. One from people like Quique Flores who think that English teams are focussed on pace over skill (?)

And someone who has won both leagues suggesting it is because the other leagues are easier.

It's interesting hearing both sides though.

I think Mourinho was talking in the context those leagues have a winter break. So towards the all important end of the season they are fresher

 

[JPRouve]

I think Mourinho was talking in the context those leagues have a winter break. So towards the all important end of the season they are fresher

They don't have a winter break in Spain and they play 2 games a week in January and February. In Spain they have a 3 days break.

 

[RK]

I think English clubs' struggles in Europe is a bit of a myth based on small sample sizes and European powerhouses (Bayern, Madrid, Barca).

Let's take Spain. Barca and Madrid simply have better players than us. The rest? How many games have been played between English and Spanish clubs? Hardly any.

 

[do.ob]

English sides just seem unorganized. Most of the continental top sides seem to have a collective understanding of what to do in certain situations, like for example "Gegenpressing" after losing the ball or when the opponents have possession in certain areas, they know when to crowd a player when to cover for players and when to close certain players down. It's why Bayern can get away with playing crazy attacking lineups. When watching PL teams I just don't see it. It seems like pressing is largely an individual effort and transitions seem mostly about teams rushing back to their designated defensive shape asap.

I don't know why it's still like that with all the foreign managers. Maybe it takes more time to replace the players of the old days, who aren't equiped for it strategically, with ones who are?
For example players like Rooney, Yaya, Terry who might have to big a name or salary got simply get axed.
Or maybe it's the quality of coaching that home grown players get?

I think English clubs' struggles in Europe is a bit of a myth based on small sample sizes and European powerhouses (Bayern, Madrid, Barca).

Let's take Spain. Barca and Madrid simply have better players than us. The rest? How many games have been played between English and Spanish clubs? Hardly any.

United struggled with PSV and Wolfsburg, City lost both games against Juventus and were quite fortunate against a rather mediocre Gladbach, Arsenal lost to Zagreb and Olympiakos before they got rekt by Barca, Chelsea had an easy group and then got outplayed by PSG twice.

 

[SirAF]

Not so long ago UEFA had to activate cheat codes to prevent a second straight United-Chelsea champions league final.

A fecking disgrace!

 

[Lurpak99]

Both should be doing much worse than the PL though. Given that the PL teams make way more money than those two leagues. Given the money in the PL they should be head and shoulders above anyone else imo.

They should do better yes, but the idea that the money should make English clubs so good that they could smash anybody is over the top. That's never going to happen unless the English clubs buy all the top players in the world, which won't happen anyway.

 

[ivaldo]

The irony of a man playing probably the most 'English' style of football in the league talking up its tactical nativity.

Why aren't English teams doing better in Europe? Because the players aren't good enough, it's that simple. You can talk about tactical nouse all you like but when Arsenal line up with Walcott, Giroud and Campbell against Barcas Neymar, Saurez and Messi 9 times out of 10 they are going to lose to the superior set of players.

We weren't talking about the continents inferior passive no contact football or some other insulting descriptive when they were getting smashed by English sides on a regular basis were we? When Real Madrid went 8 seasons and Bayern went 7 without getting beyond the quarter finals it wasn't because they weren't as efficient at adapting to European competition as English teams, was it?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think English clubs' struggles in Europe is a bit of a myth based on small sample sizes and European powerhouses (Bayern, Madrid, Barca).

I don't think it's a myth, but the perception is nevertheless largely based on the gap in quality between the top teams in England - and those three, plus a small handful of other teams. If that gap hadn't been there, people wouldn't discuss this endlessly.

And the main reason for the gap is much simpler than tactics or an over-emphasis on physical, fast paced football. It's exactly what you say: They have better players.

At the end of the day, that matters quite alot. Tactics are obviously important, but it's not like English teams are set up by tactically clueless brutes who haven't realized that continental teams tend to play in a less frenetic manner. Nor do they all set up in an identical fashion, so the idea that some sort of unified "English" approach is holding them back seems rather far fetched.

Side note: In theory you can capitalize on both speed and physicality, as demonstrated in most sports countless times. These aren't traits that will necessarily be detrimental regardless of how you set up and who you happen to play against. You have to be good enough overall to make any approach work at the highest level, though.

 

[space]

The irony of a man playing probably the most 'English' style of football in the league talking up its tactical nativity.

Why aren't English teams doing better in Europe? Because the players aren't good enough, it's that simple. You can talk about tactical nouse all you like but when Arsenal line up with Walcott, Giroud and Campbell against Barcas Neymar, Saurez and Messi 9 times out of 10 they are going to lose to the superior set of players.

We weren't talking about the continents inferior passive no contact football or some other insulting descriptive when they were getting smashed by English sides on a regular basis were we? When Real Madrid went 8 seasons and Bayern went 7 without getting beyond the quarter finals it wasn't because they weren't as efficient at adapting to European competition as English teams, was it?

Pretty much this

 

[prarek]

We weren't talking about the continents inferior passive no contact football or some other insulting descriptive when they were getting smashed by English sides on a regular basis were we? When Real Madrid went 8 seasons and Bayern went 7 without getting beyond the quarter finals it wasn't because they weren't as efficient at adapting to European competition as English teams, was it?

Yes we were tbh. Not a day went by when i didn't hear how the PL was the best because it was outperforming everyone in europe and how the other leagues were shit. Some went so far as to compare them to the championship.

 

[ivaldo]

Yes we were tbh. Not a day went by when i didn't hear how the PL was the best because it was outperforming everyone in europe and how the other leagues were shit. Some went so far as to compare them to the championship.

Right sooooo you agree then? English teams were winning in Europe because they were the better teams, no? It wasn't because everyone else was tactically naive.

 

[JPRouve]

Right sooooo you agree then? English teams were winning in Europe because they were the better teams, no? It wasn't because everyone else was tactically naive.

It's a combination of great players, great managers and managers being tactically astute. Ferguson, Mourinho and Benitez were successful because they were able to adapt to the opposition, Wenger has been underwhelming because he can't adapt.

 

[prarek]

Right sooooo you agree then? English teams were winning in Europe because they were the better teams, no? It wasn't because everyone else was tactically naive.

I think it is a combination of multiple factors. There are some very good posts in here. The best players are not playing for top english teams. Balu also made a great point about the defense being much better in that era. The teams were also built around a very good core of english players. So they had a good balance between the english 'toughness' and continental technique. Tactics also come into part mostly that bottom english teams provide a different kind of challenge than european teams. But it's only small part of the reason imho.

 

[Gio]

You have to be good enough overall to make any approach work at the highest level, though.

Picking up on that there's a quality threshold for any style of play to succeed. Probably the best example from recent times would be Spain. They always played attractive passing football, but were usually undone through a lack of physicality or defensive robustness. But when they got beyond that quality threshold, played even more incisive passing football and backed it up with energy and a solid base, they became winners. The English teams in the Champions League would be another example. Their players were suited to compact defending and counter-attacking football and for a number of years their top teams had the players in defence (Terry, Rio, Carvalho, Cole, Vidic, Sol, Toure) and midfield (Lampard, Essien, Makelele, Gerrard, Alonso, Fletcher, Ballack) who were custom-designed for such an approach.

 

[ivaldo]

It's a combination of great players, great managers and managers being tactically astute. Ferguson, Mourinho and Benitez were successful because they were able to adapt to the opposition, Wenger has been underwhelming because he can't adapt.

Ultimately no matter what way you look at it the playing staff are the biggest factor in succeeding. Astute managers can get an extra level or two out of players but they have to have that ability in them to begin with. Even without a manager I would still back Barca to beat that Arsenal team, wouldn't you?

I think it is a combination of multiple factors. There are some very good posts in here. The best players are not playing for top english teams. Balu also made a great point about the defense being much better in that era. The teams were also built around a very good core of english players. So they had a good balance between the english 'toughness' and continental technique. Tactics also come into part mostly that bottom english teams provide a different kind of challenge than european teams. But it's only small part of the reason imho.

Yup and Balu's point still comes back to having better players, English sides were built on having world class defenders, Barcelona's side is built on having world class attackers. The crux of Flores' point was that English teams are failing because they were tactically naive, to blame it solely on that is just wrong.

 

[Ramshock]

Interesting to see if many on this board back Flores comments considering how negative LVG is with his team selections.

 

[LARulz]

He's right to a degree but a lot of tactical managers have failed here too - case and point Van Gaal

 

[do.ob]

He's right to a degree but a lot of tactical managers have failed here too - case and point Van Gaal

Van Gaal failed in Spain and Germany too, I don't think he's the best PL-specific example.

 

[Theonas]

English sides just seem unorganized. Most of the continental top sides seem to have a collective understanding of what to do in certain situations, like for example "Gegenpressing" after losing the ball or when the opponents have possession in certain areas, they know when to crowd a player when to cover for players and when to close certain players down. It's why Bayern can get away with playing crazy attacking lineups. When watching PL teams I just don't see it. It seems like pressing is largely an individual effort and transitions seem mostly about teams rushing back to their designated defensive shape asap.
.

A theory for why this is still happening despite the foreign managers is that playing that way is actually the most efficient way in the PL. Sir Alex is a good example of that. There is the perception that he was not very good tactically and I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle in the sense that it's true he did not show that much tactical nous but it was also because overly tactical approaches are not efficient in England. When you are facing Continental sides who work more on reducing space and positioning, you need to work as much as they do on these things and when our teams come up against them, they either have to sit deep or get outsmarted. But against English teams who play the same way, you end up looking slow and tumescent like our current team. Another example of this would be what Ranieri said earlier this season about how he felt the Leicester players were worried he was going to introduce too much tactical work. He backed down and was justified. It's a dilemma for English clubs alright and I can't wait to see how Pep will deal it next year.

 

[Oddboy]

If you're talking about top class footballers, something that can't be overlooked is Spain's pulling power with South American Players. When you have a whole continent of youngsters who'd prefer to move to Barca/Madrid over Northern European teams then you're always going to be playing second fiddle. Bayern seem to overcome this somewhat by hoovering up all of the local talent (though this seems less pronounced recently).

Personally I take the view that due to having tougher fixtures in the Premier League nowadays, it is much harder to rotate your squad effectively and have enough in the tank for European games. Madrid put 7 past Celta Vigo and they're 5th in the league ffs.

 

[LARulz]

Van Gaal failed in Spain and Germany too, I don't think he's the best PL-specific example.

He still won league titles there and did far better than he did here

 

[Theonas]

Ultimately no matter what way you look at it the playing staff are the biggest factor in succeeding. Astute managers can get an extra level or two out of players but they have to have that ability in them to begin with. Even without a manager I would still back Barca to beat that Arsenal team, wouldn't you?

Yup and Balu's point still comes back to having better players, English sides were built on having world class defenders, Barcelona's side is built on having world class attackers. The crux of Flores' point was that English teams are failing because they were tactically naive, to blame it solely on that is just wrong.

Well of course it's never about just one factor. Almost nothing is really. I feel what backs up that point though is not the elite team but when you compare our Everton, West Ham, Southampton to the likes Villarreal, Sevilla and co. It's naïve to think that they just happen to keep unearthing gems year after year. When players talk specifically about how much less tactical work they do in England, it has to have an effect.

 

[prarek]

Yup and Balu's point still comes back to having better players, English sides were built on having world class defenders, Barcelona's side is built on having world class attackers. The crux of Flores' point was that English teams are failing because they were tactically naive, to blame it solely on that is just wrong.

To blame it solely on one reason is wrong. I don't agree that it is the main reason english teams are not doing well. Managers only see what they experience. He is merely experiencing the difference between the leagues. He has not managed a team in the CL or Europa for a long long time. Others like Mourinho and Guardiola have also not managed a midtable team in the top 3 leagues so their experience might be different to Flores as they have had the luxury of managing top teams. They might see things a bit differently had they been in charge of a small team in Spain, England or Germany.

 

[prarek]

Personally I take the view that due to having tougher fixtures in the Premier League nowadays, it is much harder to rotate your squad effectively and have enough in the tank for European games. Madrid put 7 past Celta Vigo and they're 5th in the league ffs.

Then how does this explain Barcelona beating Arsenal at the Emirats despite playing 2 away league games in 5 days prior while Arsenal played 1 cup game at home in the same time frame and that too they rested all their first teamers. So basically Arsenal's players had more than 1 week rest while Barca players were on the road playing 2 games before visiting Emirates. Don't tell me even resting is tougher than La Liga fixtures.

 

[ivaldo]

Well of course it's never about just one factor. Almost nothing is really. I feel what backs up that point though is not the elite team but when you compare our Everton, West Ham, Southampton to the likes Villarreal, Sevilla and co. It's naïve to think that they just happen to keep unearthing gems year after year. When players talk specifically about how much less tactical work they do in England, it has to have an effect.

A little strange to put Everton and Southampton in that category; Barkley, Stones, Coleman, Baines, Schneiderlin, Shaw etc all academy or peanuts. Those midtable sides are no better than the English sides, all of which have a foreign manager anyway. Besides, mastering the physical side of the game isn't just a case of being faster and stronger, it's knowing how to use that physicality, Carvalho was an example of what an art form it is. It's a different type of tactic, that's all.

 

[ATXRedDevil]

It should be a common knowledge not just in football but any team sports. In basketball it is a common knowledge. The faster a game is the more open it will be and the more space there will be. However i still see a lot of PL fans who don't watch other leagues saying there is more space in Spain. It is simply not true. It defies common logic.

I think there's more space in the English league but that also translates to more time on the ball in Europe. There's less space in behind because players with the ball aren't harassed as frequently and vigorously. This allows more technical players more room and time to shine on the ball and this is where creativity becomes so crucial in unlocking defenses since the big gaps aren't there. Look at the graph for ground/heading duels here: http://www.rafabenitez.com/web/in/blog/liga-better-than-the-premier-league/16/pag/10/