RAWK goes into Meltdown 2010/2011

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Crispy71 said:
So by your thinking with the top teams not as strong & liverpool a further 20 points behind - even under king kenny laaaaa - that makes you even more shite than usual - by your thinking that is!!:wenger:
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Oh, we've been poor last couple of seasons alright, Crispy. No arguments from me there.
 
Sam.G said:
I'm drawing a distinction between competitive and quality. Of which there most definitely is one. I am sure some of the lesser European leagues are competitive but they says nothing of their quality.

But I definitely agree the strength of the league is spread across the league and not just represented by the top sides. In that sense, I guess I am comparing the quality of the top sides to their previous morphs. The top 4 teams now are weaker than 3/4 seasons ago - the results in the CL bear this out for me. And looking at their respective squads bears this out also. The bottom teams conversely appear (to me) stronger, making the league more competitive but not necessarily higher in quality. Which I really don't think it is. Definitely in the sense of winning it anyway - I really don't think you (one) needs to be as strong as in previous years. Conversely, you probably have to stronger to stay up such have the relative strengths compacted.

Does this even make sense or have I just contradicted myself all over the place? I think I still agree with my original point. It still stands. I think. Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and City are not as good as the comparative top 4 in previous seasons. Meaning you don't have be as strong as previous years to win the league.
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So the performances in the CL confirm to you that the top sides are not as strong?

Like United winning 12 of our last 13 European knock out games and getting to the semi finals of this season's Champions League conceding only 3 goals in the process?
 
Bryan_Munich said:
It's quite amusing that this is just the latest stick to beat us with.
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I'm beating the league winners with this stick.

Everyone on here seems to think that already means Utd.

Much fun will be had then, if you throw it away from here.
 
R_Nick said:
So the performances in the CL confirm to you that the top sides are not as strong?

Like United winning 12 of our last 13 European knock out games and getting to the semi finals of this season's Champions League conceding only 3 goals in the process?
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Christ, I give up.

Yep, I agree this Utd team is the best team you have ever produced. Ever. Of all time.
 
I'd definitely take our brand of 'not as good we we used to be' over yours.
 
Kraftwerker said:
You know he's lost the argument when he does this.

He makes up an extreme version of your argument, to make it seem like you were the one being irrational, not him.

Classic Sam.
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Or when the boredom of making the same point over and over again sets in of course, Red.

Not everyone has yours and the Chief's appetite for going on and on and on and on about the same thing..
 
Sam.G said:
Christ, I give up.

Yep, I agree this Utd team is the best team you have ever produced. Ever. Of all time.
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I don't remember you resorting to strawman tactics in the newbies, Sam.

Who has said anything like what you've just claimed?

You said this season's CL justifies your view that the top sides in the PL are weaker than before, I counter that with Uniteds fantastic performance in the CL this season and you now turn to this?

Why?
 
Sam.G said:
Or when the boredom of making the same point over and over again sets in of course, Red.

Not everyone has yours and the Chief's appetite for going on and on and on and on about the same thing..
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The Chief is an argumentative sort, but not even he beats you for getting into petty spats - every day your spend your life here arguing.

More fool the rest of us for getting dragged into your pointless shit, but when someone is so perennially wrong about everything, you sometimes need to show them the way.

You seem to like to criticise or assuse others of stuff you're guilty of more than anyone.

It becomes pretty difficult to take you seriously, when you're a massive hypocrite.
 
Kraftwerker said:
The Chief is an argumentative sort, but not even he beats you for getting into petty spats - every day your spend your life here arguing.

More fool the rest of us for getting dragged into your pointless shit, but when someone is so perennially wrong about everything, you sometimes need to show them the way.

You seem to like to criticise or assuse others of stuff you're guilty of more than anyone.

It becomes pretty difficult to take you seriously, when you're a massive hypocrite.
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You've only just noticed this, krafty? Or are you being tactful?
 
R_Nick said:
I don't remember you resorting to strawman tactics in the newbies, Sam.

Who has said anything like what you've just claimed?

You said this season's CL justifies your view that the top sides in the PL are weaker than before, I counter that with Uniteds fantastic performance in the CL this season and you now turn to this?

Why?
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Because we're going away from my initial point, Nick, which is that whoever wins the league does not need to be as strong as in previous years because of the relative diminishing of strength of the top teams. This, to me, is borne out by the CL results and England only having one semi finalist.

The point you and others seem to have taken umbrage with is me saying this Utd (or Arsenal or Chelsea) side is not as strong as in previous years. Hence, as I was tired of making the same point over and over I decided (rather facetiously) just to agree with you that this actually is the strongest Utd team of all time. And if you don't think it is, then what are we discussing? Because that was the point I was making and the one I thought everyone was countering.
 
Sam.G said:
I'm beating the league winners with this stick.

Everyone on here seems to think that already means Utd.

Much fun will be had then, if you throw it away from here.
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You know as well as I do that's unlikely to happen under Ferguson.

Personally I find Micky Quinn telling us that Liverpool will definitely win the league next season even more amusing.
 
Sam.G said:
Because we're going away from my initial point, Nick, which is that whoever wins the league does not need to be as strong as in previous years because of the relative diminishing of strength of the top teams. This, to me, is borne out by the CL results and England only having one semi finalist.

The point you and others seem to have taken umbrage with is me saying this Utd (or Arsenal or Chelsea) side is not as strong as in previous years. Hence, as I was tired of making the same point over and over I decided (rather facetiously) just to agree with you that this actually is the strongest Utd team of all time. And if you don't think it is, then what are we discussing? Because that was the point I was making and the one I thought everyone was countering.
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The conversation started with your absurd notion that the league winners this year will be 'the best of an average bunch', and you suggesting that the overall quality of the league is poorer than previous years. This is a notion that has been running through the media as well of late and it's something I have a problem with, so I countered your point with my own feelings on the matter.

You have since descended to making rather odd claims and contradicting yourself all over the show whilst attempting to back up your point.

You say that the CL performances this year prove that the top teams this season are not as good as previously. Well United's results, as I've already mentioned, completely ruin this theory, and your latest suggestion that there only being one English team in the semi's proves your point is also daft when you consider them being drawn against another English team in the QF which make it impossible for both to go through. Spurs did remarkably well for a debut season and the less said about Arsenal the better.

Rather than sticking to this fallacy that the top teams have all of a sudden gone to shit and the winners of the league will simply be the least rubbish, why don't you stop and consider the points everybody is making?

If United beat Shalke over two legs we're in the CL final. If we beat City at Wembley we're in the FA cup final, how does that stand up to your assertion that if we win the league we'll have just been less rubbish than the rest?


edit: sorry for the delayed reply, went for a shit half way through.
 
Our current squad is one of Fergie's strongest ever in squad depth but no where near the best when it comes to the quality of the starting 11. People will talk about the strength of the other teams, but this team will very likely end up winning more trophies because football is mostly a squad game now.
 
Sam.G said:
Because we're going away from my initial point, Nick, which is that whoever wins the league does not need to be as strong as in previous years because of the relative diminishing of strength of the top teams. This, to me, is borne out by the CL results and England only having one semi finalist.

The point you and others seem to have taken umbrage with is me saying this Utd (or Arsenal or Chelsea) side is not as strong as in previous years. Hence, as I was tired of making the same point over and over I decided (rather facetiously) just to agree with you that this actually is the strongest Utd team of all time. And if you don't think it is, then what are we discussing? Because that was the point I was making and the one I thought everyone was countering.
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You're tying yourself in all sorts of knots here, as usual.

So what's your criteria for a high quality league - 2 English semi-finalists? 3?

If that's the case, surely there's only been maybe 2 or 3 high quality league years in the last 10 years or so?

The rest have been best of bad bunch, including Arsenal's Invincibles, Mourinho's 96 point Chelsea team, and United's treble team. Sounds retarded to me, but this your logic I'm following.

Do you agree with that?
 
'the quality of the league', point tallies, etc. doesn't even need to factor into this.

Look at your team, man for man. Now look at how it has performed this season on the pitch.

Then compare to the champions of previous seasons in both respects.

Whoever wins will be the best of a bad bunch compared to previous seasons. Football can be a lot better than what the top teams have mustered this year.
 
Oh for god sake, benine, read the thread and post something that Sam hasn't already said and had countered.
 
B9 said:
'the quality of the league', point tallies, etc. doesn't even need to factor into this.

Look at your team, man for man. Now look at how it has performed this season on the pitch.

Then compare to the champions of previous seasons in both respects.

Whoever wins will be the best of a bad bunch compared to previous seasons. Football can be a lot better than what the top teams have mustered this year.
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Is this what you're trying to say?

Everyone's shit, your shit is less shit. :smirk:
 
B9 said:
'the quality of the league', point tallies, etc. doesn't even need to factor into this.

Look at your team, man for man. Now look at how it has performed this season on the pitch.

Then compare to the champions of previous seasons in both respects.

Whoever wins will be the best of a bad bunch compared to previous seasons. Football can be a lot better than what the top teams have mustered this year.
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This United team is just as good if not better than the previous two champions.
 
R_Nick said:
The conversation started with your absurd notion that the league winners this year will be 'the best of an average bunch', and you suggesting that the overall quality of the league is poorer than previous years. This is a notion that has been running through the media as well of late and it's something I have a problem with, so I countered your point with my own feelings on the matter.

You have since descended to making rather odd claims and contradicting yourself all over the show whilst attempting to back up your point.

You say that the CL performances this year prove that the top teams this season are not as good as previously. Well United's results, as I've already mentioned, completely ruin this theory, and your latest suggestion that there only being one English team in the semi's proves your point is also daft when you consider them being drawn against another English team in the QF which make it impossible for both to go through. Spurs did remarkably well for a debut season and the less said about Arsenal the better.

Rather than sticking to this fallacy that the top teams have all of a sudden gone to shit and the winners of the league will simply be the least rubbish, why don't you stop and consider the points everybody is making?

If United beat Shalke over two legs we're in the CL final. If we beat City at Wembley we're in the FA cup final, how does that stand up to your assertion that if we win the league we'll have just been less rubbish than the rest?


edit: sorry for the delayed reply, went for a shit half way through.
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I'm not actually sure I have contradicted myself, Nick. By all means, point it out and perhaps I can clear it up.

As for your last question, obviously the route to any cup final has to be considered, no? That said, you've definitely done well in Europe (again) and if you reach another final it will be a great, great achievement. Does it tell me it is a better squad than it's 2008, 2007 or 1999 counterparts? Or Chelsea under Jose? No, not for me, it doesn't.

But the bottom line is I look at your squad, Chelsea's, Arsenal's and ours and they are simply not as strong as they were in previous seasons for me, ergo the league winners will not be as strong as previous years. Not a lot will be able to sway me from that particular view, Nick, and if you think it's nonsense then, so be it, and I have no problem with that. It's all about opinions after all.
 
Ffs this thread in the past was used to be a good laugh.
 
Sam, you seem to avoid points you can't answer.

If CL performance is the barometer of a high quality league, does that mean Arsenal's Invincibles, Mourinho's 2006 team, and United's treble winners were just the best of an average bunch, like the current teams?

Afterall, the league strength can't have been up to much those years when there were few if any CL semi-finalists.
 
Sam.G said:
I'm not actually sure I have contradicted myself, Nick. By all means, point it out and perhaps I can clear it up.

As for your last question, obviously the route to any cup final has to be considered, no? That said, you've definitely done well in Europe (again) and if you reach another final it will be a great, great achievement. Does it tell me it is a better squad than it's 2008, 2007 or 1999 counterparts? Or Chelsea under Jose? No, not for me, it doesn't.

But the bottom line is I look at your squad, Chelsea's, Arsenal's and ours and they are simply not as strong as they were in previous seasons for me, ergo the league winners will not be as strong as previous years. Not a lot will be able to sway me from that particular view, Nick, and if you think it's nonsense then, so be it, and I have no problem with that. It's all about opinions after all.
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So if all these top teams are weaker, does that mean that you lot are even worse than usual then, Sam?
 
This thread has certainly gone out of topic. I thought this thread was created to laugh at the hypocritical views of the scousers at RAWK, you could very easily create another thread where you could discuss the quality of the teams currently plying their trade in the premier league.

I for one don't laugh at Liverpool Football Club, they have great history behind them and it'd be more fun for us to actually play against a Liverpool team that doesn't take their match against us to be their Cup Final. I do however laugh at the bitter scousers over at RAWK, some ironic comments here and there, a little belittlement and constant amusement. I suggest we either get back to laughing at RAWK or change the title to A Liverpudlian Point of View by Sam.G
 
If he means the individuals in the team aren't as good as previous years then maybe Sam might have a point. If he does mean that he's doing a rubbish job of getting that down in words.

However, I feel this current crop of United players are one of the better teams we're produced in terms of finding the right balance of the players.

I do think the league is a lot more competitive this year which is why the top four teams haven't amassed as much points. Not to mention the likes of Spurs and Man City have become good teams within their own right.
 
EricaNo7 said:
So if all these top teams are weaker, does that mean that you lot are even worse than usual then, Sam?
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Yep, it does unfortunately, Erica.

This season has been a bit of a mare. Things are coming right under Kenny now though.
 
Sam.G said:
Yep, it does unfortunately, Erica.

This season has been a bit of a mare. Things are coming right under Kenny now though.
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Things may be coming right but I guess given the poor standard of this league then there's little credit in winning matches in it anyway.
 
Sam.G said:
My actual quote was "the winners of the league will be the best of an average bunch".
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Sam, where is your evidence that the league is average?


I know that the media have hyped up this angle half of the season simply because their own predictions for this season have not worked out. But apart from that what or where is you evidence for this?

I'd argue the opposite ie the Premier league is actually very competitive and of a very high standard. My evidence? Here it is:

- Three Premiership teams reached the CL quarter finals
On their way to the quarters, they have defeated some of the best teams in Europe

- The Premier League is arguably the best in the world
the competition is very fierce. It's the reason that there are only 4pts separating the bottom six teams and only 9pts separating the bottom twelve teams.

- If the leaders (United) are so average, then what does that say about Liverpool?
Liverpool are 21pts behind United. They are also out of all the domestic and European competitions a while back. Now that's what can be called average! United on the other hand, are top of the Premiership and in the semi-finals of both the CL and FA Cup. Already Chelsea, Spurs and United are amongst the elite of European and world football - the best of the best group.

- Top Four clubs have some of the best players in the world:

Arsenal - Fabregas, van Persie, Nasri, Wilshere
Chelsea - Drogba, Cole, Luiz, Terry, Lampard, Torres (yes Torres)
Man City - Tevez, Silva, Dzeko,
Man United - VdSar, Vidic, Nani, Valencia, Giggs, Rooney, Hernandez

even Liverpool have Gerrard, Suarez, Carroll

For me, the league and its leading clubs are anything but average.
 
Sam.G said:
What do you find strange, TR?

You think the top teams are as strong as they ever were?
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That's not what people are animated against though Sam, it's the best of an average bunch nonsense.


We are not as bucanneering as previous sides or as icon filled but the squad has super players, and is possibly the best squad we've had in terms of overall balance. What other squad would be able to make 8 changes from a champs league game and stroll past Fulham? Or beat the second placed team with 7 defenders including a hatful of changes from the previous game.

Your two best achievements as a club was 2005 and second a few years ago, in both seasons that was your only involvement as the season progressed. We are still in all 3, to say that is the work of an average team is clueless. It's time to reapraise, not dig in. Read around the papers, more famous and more bitter commenators than you have already started.
 
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