Rio Ferdinand

[Ash_G]

That's not the same either. The message simple reads, kick racism out of football. It doesn't read 'back the people behind this campaign' which is the only message your example would directly relate to. It's not the same as wearing a badge asking people to vote conservatice or labour.

It's a tshirt with a statement. Wearing it doesn't need to insinuate that you are confident in the people behidn the message, only that you're confident in the message.

Well the point was that it's not for your boss to say that you should support x cause. The message is being run by people Ferdinand doesn't feel are doing enough, he doesn't believe in how the campaign is being run and he's fully allowed to take that stance and not take part.

No one thinks that Rio doesn't believe in the message, of course he does, but he doesn't believe in the way it's being done and the t-shirt is a direct link to that. Too him the t-shirt/message might be meaningless if the people behind it are doing enough and so by not supporting them he can put pressure on them, it might not be the best way but it's a way.

 

[antohan]

Right so you're saying that the only way Fergie could have responded was the way he did? The Terry situation has gone on for ages not and Fergie has given plenty of interviews without having to say too much on the situation. Fergie is an absolute beast in press conferences, if he doesn't want to talk about something he doesn't, if he thinks he's answered the question that he'll stop further questions.

And the way he manages not to get embroiled in it is by giving definitive clear-cut answers. McDermott can be wishy-washy because no one cares about exploring the issue further with him, that's my point.

Will be interesting to see what Anton does today as Hughes stated he understood he was wearing it.

 

[antohan]

it might not be the best way but it's a way.

That's entirely the problem, there were other ways whereby he didn't drag United and his manager along, but he chose that way.

 

[Eyepopper]

Well the point was that it's not for your boss to say that you should support x cause. .

Again people are sort of missing the point here. It's not about forcing an individual to do anything, Man Utd, right or wrong, support this campaign, Rio as a member of the team is expected to represent what ye club want.

Do you think he honestly thinks AON are the bestest insurance company in the world? Or that Rooney and Giggs love a drop of that wine they did the ad for?

Part of the responsibility of players is to support club initiatives. Of course hes entitled to take issue with something, at which point he should speak to Fergie and find a solution, not take isolated action to while representing the club.

 

[Ash_G]

And the way he manages not to get embroiled in it is by giving definitive clear-cut answers. McDermott can be wishy-washy because no one cares about exploring the issue further with him, that's my point.

Will be interesting to see what Anton does today as Hughes stated he understood he was wearing it.

Well he could have given other clear cut answers but end of the day he chose to come out and condemn Robert's for his stance and it was clearly something he wanted to say. In doing so he created a situation where Rio either had to wear the shirt or not wear it causing the issues. Saying that everyone should wear it and that all his players would, without being certain of it was definitely not the best response he could have given.

McDermott's answer wasn't wishy-washy, he backed his player to make his own choice about something that ultimately is a personal choice. Fergie chose to respond by giving his strong personal opinion and seemed oblivious to the fact that it might contrast with one of his player's opinions.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

In general Pop's I agree with your sentiments, but given how the Ferdinand's have been treated by the FA, in particular how they dropped Rio (a 100% innocent party) so that Terry wouldn't feel uncomfortable, I have to back up Rio's decision not to support the FA's lip-service efforts of combating Racism.

 

[Eyepopper]

In general Pop's I agree with your sentiments, but given how the Ferdinand's have been treated by the FA, in particular how they dropped Rio (a 100% innocent party) so that Terry wouldn't feel uncomfortable, I have to back up Rio's decision not to support the FA's lip-service efforts of combating Racism.

So do I. Just don't drag Utd into what's an argument between Rio and the FA.

 

[moses]

This is the answer to what's wrong with football at the moment; fans love exaggerated gossip.

They can both be right, Fergie wants the club to be above question on this issue and feels unity is the only way. Rio feels that this transcends his duty to the club.

Fergie made this an issue for us by having a go at Roberts, that's the only bit I can't see the logic of.

 

[Ash_G]

Again people are sort of missing the point here. It's not about forcing an individual to do anything, Man Utd, right or wrong, support this campaign, Rio as a member of the team is expected to represent what ye club want.

Do you think he honestly thinks AON are the bestest insurance company in the world? Or that Rooney and Giggs love a drop of that wine they did the ad for?

Part of the responsibility of players is to support club initiatives. Of course hes entitled to take issue with something, at which point he should speak to Fergie and find a solution, not take isolated action to while representing the club.

But that's the difference, the kit is something he's contractually obliged to wear in the same way that most professional workers have to wear a shirt and tie. If they don't want to wear an piece of work clothing than they should leave, just like how there are rumors some Muslim players at toon don't want to wear Wonga sponsored shirts. What he is not obliged to wear is something that supports an external cause/message. People can expect you to wear a poppy or frown when you don't but they can't make you wear it.

He does have a responsibility to the club to act in a certain way etc but it doesn't mean he has to go along with everything. and Fergie didn't seemingly give him a choice in the situation, Fergie effectively took the choice away on Friday but Ferdinand stuck to his guns. Responsibility runs both ways, it wasn't for Fergie to make the choice for Rio.

 

[Redlambs]

This is the answer to what's wrong with football at the moment; fans love exaggerated gossip.

They can both be right, Fergie wants the club to be above question on this issue and feels unity is the only way. Rio feels that this transcends his duty to the club.

Fergie made this an issue for us by having a go at Roberts, that's the only bit I can't see the logic of.

Completely agree.

 

[moses]

Again people are sort of missing the point here. It's not about forcing an individual to do anything, Man Utd, right or wrong, support this campaign, Rio as a member of the team is expected to represent what ye club want.

Do you think he honestly thinks AON are the bestest insurance company in the world? Or that Rooney and Giggs love a drop of that wine they did the ad for?

Part of the responsibility of players is to support club initiatives. Of course hes entitled to take issue with something, at which point he should speak to Fergie and find a solution, not take isolated action to while representing the club.

Agreed, but if Rio feels this is more important than doing what his employer tells him to do, then fair play. Not enough people brave enough to do that.

 

[Eyepopper]

It's for Fergie to make a choice for the team and club.

It's for Rio to highlight it if he has an issue with that in an appropriate way.

 

[Ash_G]

That's entirely the problem, there were other ways whereby he didn't drag United and his manager along, but he chose that way.

Well no because he could have not worn the shirt and it have been about him not United. Fergie by taking the stance he did and then reacting the way he did made it an internal affair. Lescott hasn't worn it for years apparently, I never knew that until today, Robert's not wearing it was about him not Reading, of course United are a much more talked about club then City or Reading but I don't think Rio not wearing it would have reflected badly on united but the player's own choice. Fergie though by publicly condemning other people for not taking part and then saying all his players would, when clearly Rio felt differently, drew attention to the club itself and then increased it by his reaction on saturday.

 

[Eyepopper]

This is the answer to what's wrong with football at the moment; fans love exaggerated gossip.

They can both be right, Fergie wants the club to be above question on this issue and feels unity is the only way. Rio feels that this transcends his duty to the club.

Fergie made this an issue for us by having a go at Roberts, that's the only bit I can't see the logic of.

Yep.

 

[SteveJ]

I don't understand how SAF can genuinely feel embarrassed about this situation - he's spent an entire career at odds with the media & generally acts like he couldn't give a damn for their opinions. I hope this isn't another instance in which he thinks that one of his players is 'old' & therefore expendable.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

I wouldn't imagine it was a flippant decision by Rio to disobey SAF's wishes like that.

Also, as I said in a separate thread, Fergie was 100% wrong to speak about Roberts, and that is what created to situation we are in now. Was Fergie asked a direct question about Roberts, or how did it come up?

 

[Redlambs]

I don't understand how SAF can genuinely feel embarrassed about this situation - he's spent an entire career at odds with the media & generally acts like he couldn't give a damn for their opinions. I hope this isn't another instance in which he thinks that one of his players is 'old' & therefore expendable.

I was saying that when this started, something seems off about it all.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

I was saying that when this started, something seems off about it all.

Nah, couldn't be. We're way too short in numbers to have a centrehalf like Rio considered expendable.

 

[Eyepopper]

Maybe Fergie was a bit pissed that Rios two most notable contributions to the day were creating a media storm and being left flat on his arse for their second.

 

[antohan]

Well he could have given other clear cut answers but end of the day he chose to come out and condemn Robert's for his stance and it was clearly something he wanted to say. In doing so he created a situation where Rio either had to wear the shirt or not wear it causing the issues.

So Rio should go and wear it, simple.

Saying that everyone should wear it and that all his players would, without being certain of it was definitely not the best response he could have given.

Should he say "I don't know if all the players are going to wear it?".

McDermott's answer wasn't wishy-washy, he backed his player to make his own choice about something that ultimately is a personal choice. Fergie chose to respond by giving his strong personal opinion and seemed oblivious to the fact that it might contrast with one of his player's opinions.

By wishy-washy I meant answering "they can do whatever they want" because no one was ever going to explore his opinions or make a big deal of them. No one would buy Fergie not having a strong opinion and everyone would expect his opinion to be one of support, he was consistent with that. It follows that if Fergie has a strong opinion the players will wear the t-shirts.

Everyone banging on about Fergie fecking up by not knowing Rio wouldn't wear it. It's simple, every single player knows he is expected to, if he plans not to it is for the player to let the manager know, not for the manager to call the players and ask them if they will.

Does your boss call you every day asking whether you are going to work today? No, you call him if what is expected isn't going to happen.

The only scenario where Fergie is in the wrong is if Rio let him know in advance and I cannot see why he would handle things that way and invite all this media attention if he did.

Ferdinand failed in his duty of letting his employers know he was planning not to do something which was expected of him. There is no way someone of his experience didn't foresee that becoming an issue. One week's wages, fair.

 

[Ash_G]

I wouldn't imagine it was a flippant decision by Rio to disobey SAF's wishes like that.

Also, as I said in a separate thread, Fergie was 100% wrong to speak about Roberts, and that is what created to situation we are in now. Was Fergie asked a direct question about Roberts, or how did it come up?

Think he was directly asked about Robert's from memory.

And yeah I agree, Fergie was the one who drew attention to the club. Thing is we don't know what happened in the build up, maybe Rio should have communicated that he wouldn't be wearing it before the press conference, but at the same time Fergie without being certain that he would shouldn't have taken such a strong stance. There were rumors he wouldn't before the press conference so without being sure Fergie shouldn't have been so assertive that everyone would wear it and condemning Robert's for not.

 

[Ash_G]

So Rio should go and wear it, simple.

Why? Rio might feel this is a bigger issue than upsetting Fergie, he's an adult and allowed to support or not support a cause.

Should he say "I don't know if all the players are going to wear it?".

He could have said. "I think showing unity is the best way forward but I appreciate it's down to individual choice and I support Rio to make his own decision." etc. There were loads of different things he could have said.

By wishy-washy I meant answering "they can do whatever they want" because no one was ever going to explore his opinions or make a big deal of them. No one would buy Fergie not having a strong opinion and everyone would expect his opinion to be one of support, he was consistent with that. It follows that if Fergie has a strong opinion the players will wear the t-shirts.

Everyone banging on about Fergie fecking up by not knowing Rio wouldn't wear it. It's simple, every single player knows he is expected to, if he plans not to it is for the player to let the manager know, not for the manager to call the players and ask them if they will.

Does your boss call you every day asking whether you are going to work today? No, you call him if what is expected isn't going to happen.

The only scenario where Fergie is in the wrong is if Rio let him know in advance and I cannot see why he would handle things that way and invite all this media attention if he did.

Ferdinand failed in his duty of letting his employers know he was planning not to do something which was expected of him. There is no way someone of his experience didn't foresee that becoming an issue. One week's wages, fair.

Ferdinand didn't fail anything. It's not your employer's decision what you should and shouldn't support. They can expect something of you, or frown upon you for not doing something but they can't demand it off you.

Your employer can only demand that you act in a way that your contract dictates. That means you act in a certain way, turn up for work etc. Rio did all that, he was there, training, wearing the official united training kit that he is obliged to wear. He's not obliged to wear a t-shirt promoting another organization/cause.

It wasn't for Fergie to come out and say his players will all wear the t-shirts, that's not his choice to make. He could chose not to involve Rio unless he wore it, although even that probably wouldn't be allowed, but he can't force him to wear something.

The only way Rio is wrong is if he told people at unted that he would wear it and then didn't, but other then that it's personal choice and Fergie should have accepted and respected that.

 

[antohan]

Think he was directly asked about Robert's from memory.

It was a direct question

And yeah I agree, Fergie was the one who drew attention to the club. Thing is we don't know what happened in the build up, maybe Rio should have communicated that he wouldn't be wearing it before the press conference, but at the same time Fergie without being certain that he would shouldn't have taken such a strong stance. There were rumors he wouldn't before the press conference so without being sure Fergie shouldn't have been so assertive that everyone would wear it and condemning Robert's for not.

Again, it is for Rio to communicate that he will not do something that is expected. If he doesn't SAF is entitled to say whatever he feels like and Rio should have realised he had put his boss and club in a difficult position and not gone ahead with it.

Going back to work. A couple of weeks ago I had some HR person come ask me why so and so hadn't been to work for two days. I have about 20 people reporting to me, some on the road, the rest in two separate offices... I basically had no idea she hadn't, which made me look like a complete mug. As it turns out she was feeling poorly and had been working from home, which would be perfectly fine if he had made me aware of it. Since she didn't, the HR person is now entitled to wonder how much she actually "works from home".

All completely unnecessary.

 

[Andrew~]

Shocked by Fergie's dealing of this whole issue. He never needed to wade into the issue and make stupid guarantees to begin with, and going further to fine a player for making a principled stand is, quite frankly, insane.

There are some things that go above company loyalty, and Fergie should understand that.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Even with a direct question, his response about Roberts was OTT. Do they have history? I can't think of anything but why did he have a pop at him over his MOTD career?

 

[Eyepopper]

And I'm sure he does.

But there's also a way to go about dealing with things and he's never been a big fan of players flying solo missions, particularly when they then end up on their arse watching an opposition player score during the actual game.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Rio on his arse was a bigger issue for me than the lack of t-shirt.

 

[Ash_G]

It was a direct question



Again, it is for Rio to communicate that he will not do something that is expected. If he doesn't SAF is entitled to say whatever he feels like and Rio should have realised he had put his boss and club in a difficult position and not gone ahead with it.

Going back to work. A couple of weeks ago I had some HR person come ask me why so and so hadn't been to work for two days. I have about 20 people reporting to me, some on the road, the rest in two separate offices... I basically had no idea she hadn't, which made me look like a complete mug. As it turns out she was feeling poorly and had been working from home, which would be perfectly fine if he had made me aware of it. Since she didn't, the HR person is now entitled to wonder how much she actually "works from home".

All completely unnecessary.

But that's something completely different, that person didn't fufill their work obligations, Rio did. He was there, ready to play, wearing official united kit, he didn't wear a 3rd party t-shirt that he wasn't obliged to wear. He didn't come out and give an interview at the game promoting his own message or wear a t-shirt of his own.

What was unnecessary was Fergie stating that his players would do something without being certain that they would and failing to accept that this sort of situation in a personal matter.

 

[antohan]

He could have said. "I think showing unity is the best way forward but I appreciate it's down to individual choice and I support Rio to make his own decision." etc.

That invariably leads the questions towards the sore point.

Ferdinand didn't fail anything. It's not your employer's decision what you should and shouldn't support. They can expect something of you, or frown upon you for not doing something but they can't demand it off you.

Precisely, and he failed at making it clear the expectations were wrong. This is not a random event, it happens every fecking year.

It wasn't for Fergie to come out and say his players will all wear the t-shirts, that's not his choice to make.

They always have in the past and no one indicated to him they would do otherwise, of course he is entitled to say that.

He could chose not to involve Rio unless he wore it, although even that probably wouldn't be allowed

 

[Eyepopper]

Rio on his arse was a bigger issue for me than the lack of t-shirt.

Me too and could well have had something to do with Fergies reaction.

 

[antohan]

But that's something completely different, that person didn't fufill their work obligations, Rio did. He was there, ready to play, wearing official united kit, he didn't wear a 3rd party t-shirt that he wasn't obliged to wear. He didn't come out and give an interview at the game promoting his own message or wear a t-shirt of his own.

What was unnecessary was Fergie stating that his players would do something without being certain that they would and failing to accept that this sort of situation in a personal matter.

Rio knew full well that the t-shirts would be worn. He knows they have always worn them in the past. He has worn them in the past. Thus it is expected that he will.

If he plans not to he has to let management know. It's not a contractual obligation, it's basic common sense that should be expected from such an experienced player.

The moment he heard about Roberts' stance the first thing he did was go and twit shit around. The first thing he should have done is realise the shirts would be an issue that weekend and if he was planning not to wear one let his manager know. Clearly he did not.

 

[Ash_G]

That invariably leads the questions towards the sore point.



Precisely, and he failed at making it clear the expectations were wrong. This is not a random event, it happens every fecking year.



They always have in the past and no one indicated to him they would do otherwise, of course he is entitled to say that.

Last point is about your employer excluding you for not wearing something you're not contractually obliged to wear.

With the other points it's one thing that Rio could have communicated that he would or wouldn't wear something but end of the day Fergie should have known for certain that he would wear it before he said what he did and that's more wrong than Rio not wearing it imo and ultimately what's led to it being such an issue.

Just cause they have in the past doens't mean anything. Maybe in the past Rio thought the organization wasn't doing enough, maybe he's become disillusioned with them cause of recent events. Regardless that's his choice to make and it wasn't for Fergie to make it for him.

 

[Platato]

It's great though isn't it?

Another weekend where Sundays sport sections are dominated by everything but what actually happened during the game.

Yep. Hence, why I avoid this place when such "issues" arise. That Clough video is so telling. This is the kind of shit discussed in the workplace as if it's something important. Heck, we do this with so many other issues outside of football. It becomes a bit dry. Fact of the matter is, a resolution will be found, and because of the nature of football, this incident will move to the back of everyone's minds. Once the Chelsea match comes around, will such a situation be so important?

The fact Gary Neville is lauded for his analysis says it all for me. We should have more people like him on the TV screen. It would actually make post-match analysis somewhat refreshing. Instead we have numpties who think mentioning a keeper flapping at a cross is analysis and are more interested in picking out little things as if they're psychoanalysts when they have no business talking about such things. Big reason why I rarely watch Sky anymore.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Rio should have made it known to the club that he wasn't going to wear it.

 

[Ash_G]

Rio knew full well that the t-shirts would be worn. He knows they have always worn them in the past. He has worn them in the past. Thus it is expected that he will.

If he plans not to he has to let management know. It's not a contractual obligation, it's basic common sense that should be expected from such an experienced player.

The moment he heard about Roberts' stance the first thing he did was go and twit shit around. The first thing he should have done is realise the shirts would be an issue that weekend and if he was planning not to wear one let his manager know. Clearly he did not.

Ferige too should equally be aware that the situation is delicate at the moment, that there were already rumors that he wouldn't wear it etc and that before he comes out and gives such a strong statement he should ensure that Rio will wear it. For all we know Fergie knew that Rio wasn't planning to wear it and said what he did to try and force him to. But that's not really the issue, Ferdinand could have communicated that he wouldn't wear it but Fergie shouldn't have made the statements he did without being sure, and unless Rio lied to him which I highly doubt than he clearly didn't know and thus shouldn't have said what he did.

Having said it though he could have tried to play it down yesterday but he chose to take it as a personal affront and now it's on all the back pages.

 

[Platato]

This is the answer to what's wrong with football at the moment; fans love exaggerated gossip.

They can both be right, Fergie wants the club to be above question on this issue and feels unity is the only way. Rio feels that this transcends his duty to the club.

Fergie made this an issue for us by having a go at Roberts, that's the only bit I can't see the logic of.

Indeed. It was really unnecessary and for someone so calculated, quite surprising. Just amazing how we can choose to expend our time and energy on what you say is "exaggerated gossip".

 

[Platato]

Rio should have made it known to the club that he wasn't going to wear it.

And Fergie unnecessarily criticised Roberts which put Rio in a precarious situation. Hindsight is 20/20. There are a lot of ifs,buts,ands, coulds, woulds and shoulds.

As others have mentioned, both Rio and SAF could have dealt with the situation better. To me, this is where the discussion should stop. Instead what seems to be a misunderstanding is now being exaggerated as a major fall-out between manager and player.

 

[Andrew~]

And I'm sure he does.

But there's also a way to go about dealing with things and he's never been a big fan of players flying solo missions, particularly when they then end up on their arse watching an opposition player score during the actual game.

So what? Criticise the performance on the pitch all day. But, in the first place, Fergie shouldn't have said what he said about Roberts; and in the second place, offering guarantees to the press over something so extremely sensitive while fully knowing one of his own players is not only black, but directly related to an incident of racial abuse, was very stupid.

And lastly, making public comments like "he embarrassed me" and "he'll be dealt with" is extremely poor form. If he wanted to keep the club's good image, then everything he has done regarding the racism issue in the last couple of days has been counter-productive.

He made a mistake in the first instance getting involved, and now he just needs to back off because any action taken against Rio now will look bad to anyone who's not in love with Fergie.

 

[Eyepopper]

So what? Criticise the performance on the pitch all day. But, in the first place, Fergie shouldn't have said what he said about Roberts; and in the second place, offering guarantees to the press over something so extremely sensitive while fully knowing one of his own players is not only black, but directly related to an incident of racial abuse, was very stupid.

And lastly, making public comments like "he embarrassed me" and "he'll be dealt with" is extremely poor form. If he wanted to keep the club's good image, then everything he has done regarding the racism issue in the last couple of days has been counter-productive.

He made a mistake in the first instance getting involved, and now he just needs to back off because any action taken against Rio now will look bad to anyone who's not in love with Fergie.

Well what I'm suggesting is that perhaps Rios performance during the game had something to do with Fergies reaction.

 

[Platato]

Ever since the 'choc ice' retweet, which was more racially offensive than 'black cnut' in my book, I've had no time for Rio on this matter. It won't be long before I have no time for him at all.

Even if SAF hadn't said what he did during Friday's press conference, Rio's belief that he has the moral high ground and is fighting the good fight is cringeworthy. If he played for any other club, I think we'd be disgusted that he wasn't banned for his Twitter drama. His 'it's not what I thought it meant' defence is no more relevant than Suarez's 'cultural differences' when it comes to offence caused.

Just awful. What you said there is also cringeworthy. The chairman of KIO said Rio was well within his right to not wear the shirt. Are you going to allow your dislike of Rio overshadow the reasons why he chose not to wear the shirt which actually might be reasonable? Think of what he and his family has been through.