Riots in Ferguson, St Louis

[Skizzo]

The worse thing about all this is how many people jump to conclusions without the whole story being out. Then you have the media making it into a racial issue, not to mention you then have pro sports teams trying to make their own statements on the issue and just causing further conflicts.

As an officer, you're trained to choose your use of force carefully. You're never trained to fight on an equal playing field, (eg, hands vs hands) If a person reaches for your gun on your belt, the only logical reason he would be going for it, is to use it to kill you. In that case, you have your justification for deadly force. If it's a 6'4, 300lbs man, regardless of race, one shot to center mass isn't likely to stop him. Not to mention, why fire once? If he's in a state of mind that he thinks his only option is to charge an officer, then I would certainly contemplate that he may be on drugs. I've watched countless people on drugs get shot, stabbed, hit by cars etc, and keep coming. You don't stop until the threat is gone.

 

[FCBarca]

of the laaaaaand of the freeeeeeee!!!!!!!! and the home of the whites!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly

 

[villain]

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

Malcolm X said that in the 50's and it's still relevant today.

The media have a clear bias throughout this entire story.
There was looting on ONE day (Sunday) and only a small amount of people who even took part, and not all of them were black, there's beeen none since. If you were to watch the news and read the newspapers only, they'd have you believe that there's at least hundreds of people looting every night.

And all this does is distract from the real issues, and paint the peaceful protestors as violent criminals. It tries to justify why the police officers feel "scared" to shoot unarmed teenagers. It distracts from the fact that you have police officers throwing tear gas at peaceful protestors and macing children. It illustrates black people as violent, aggressive & dangerous.

However when you go onto social media and you see actual images uploaded by people who are there all you see is nothing but peace and calm, you have people debating with some police officers about why they feel so aggrieved and frustrated in the first place.

There's a video that's doing the rounds on facebook and tumblr which shows the same CCTV footage from a different angle, and you can see Brown paying for some of the cigars - there's an exchange where Brown hands money into the clerks hands. But this is not being reported, and it seems the confrontation began when he didn't have enough money to pay for the amount he wanted so he then exchanged it for something different. - This is not being reported because the damage has already been done, he's already been labelled as an aggressive black man with a criminal record.

Members of the KKK have been to Ferguson and are actively raising money for Darren Wilson (the cop) for killing "a typical low IQ Negro" (despite the fact that Brown graduated high school and would have been attending college around this time) but again THIS isn't being reported in national media either.

Countless other examples but i'm at work so those are the only things that I can remember off the top of my head without actually looking in depth.
If you take a look on social media, and the videos and pictures people have uploaded it paints a very different picture.

 

[Skizzo]

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

Malcolm X said that in the 50's and it's still relevant today.

The media have a clear bias throughout this entire story.
There was looting on ONE day (Sunday) and only a small amount of people who even took part, and not all of them were black, there's beeen none since. If you were to watch the news and read the newspapers only, they'd have you believe that there's at least hundreds of people looting every night.

And all this does is distract from the real issues, and paint the peaceful protestors as violent criminals. It tries to justify why the police officers feel "scared" to shoot unarmed teenagers. It distracts from the fact that you have police officers throwing tear gas at peaceful protestors and macing children. It illustrates black people as violent, aggressive & dangerous.

However when you go onto social media and you see actual images uploaded by people who are there all you see is nothing but peace and calm, you have people debating with some police officers about why they feel so aggrieved and frustrated in the first place.

There's a video that's doing the rounds on facebook and tumblr which shows the same CCTV footage from a different angle, and you can see Brown paying for some of the cigars - there's an exchange where Brown hands money into the clerks hands. But this is not being reported, and it seems the confrontation began when he didn't have enough money to pay for the amount he wanted so he then exchanged it for something different. - This is not being reported because the damage has already been done, he's already been labelled as an aggressive black man with a criminal record.

Members of the KKK have been to Ferguson and are actively raising money for Darren Wilson (the cop) for killing "a typical low IQ Negro" (despite the fact that Brown graduated high school and would have been attending college around this time) but again THIS isn't being reported in national media either.

Countless other examples but i'm at work so those are the only things that I can remember off the top of my head without actually looking in depth.
If you take a look on social media, and the videos and pictures people have uploaded it paints a very different picture.

Which is going both ways. Theres no story in covering the peaceful protestors, nor is there a story in police officers who save lives and put their own lives on the line for others. As long as people are willing to sensationalize news to make money, it will continue.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Which is going both ways. Theres no story in covering the peaceful protestors, nor is there a story in police officers who save lives and put their own lives on the line for others. As long as people are willing to sensationalize news to make money, it will continue.

they are paid for that "to serve and protect" not to kill and maim, and be racists

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The po-po need to review some Sir Robert Peel. I stole this from the NY Times:

PRINCIPLE 1 “The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.”

PRINCIPLE 2 “The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.”

PRINCIPLE 3 “Police must secure the willing cooperation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.”

PRINCIPLE 4 “The degree of cooperation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.”

PRINCIPLE 5 “Police seek and preserve public favor not by catering to the public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.”

PRINCIPLE 6 “Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.”

PRINCIPLE 7 “Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”

PRINCIPLE 8 “Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.”

PRINCIPLE 9 “The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.”

 

[villain]

Which is going both ways. Theres no story in covering the peaceful protestors, nor is there a story in police officers who save lives and put their own lives on the line for others. As long as people are willing to sensationalize news to make money, it will continue.

Pretty sure thats their job, and they get paid for doing it.

The protestors aren't doing this for anything other than to raise awareness and fight for justice.

And really, the media attention shouldn't be on the protestors, or good and honest police officers - but the unjustified killing of an unarmed teenager.

 

[Skizzo]

Pretty sure thats their job, and they get paid for doing it.

The protestors aren't doing this for anything other than to raise awareness and fight for justice.

And really, the media attention shouldn't be on the protestors, or good and honest police officers - but the unjustified killing of an unarmed teenager.

Which was the unjustified part? Because there's witness reports for both sides. Dozens of witness reports claiming Brown charged the officer, struck him, and tried to take his gun. At that point, there's only one likely outcome...someone is going to be shot. The narrative for this was always going to be "evil white police officer shoots innocent, unarmed black teenager." Regardless of whatever facts or story come out, people will cling to that narrative.

 

[villain]

Which was the unjustified part? Because there's witness reports for both sides. Dozens of witness reports claiming Brown charged the officer, struck him, and tried to take his gun. At that point, there's only one likely outcome...someone is going to be shot. The narrative for this was always going to be "evil white police officer shoots innocent, unarmed black teenager." Regardless of whatever facts or story come out, people will cling to that narrative.

Which eyewitnesses claim that Brown charged the officer and tried to take his gun? Aside from the police documentation of course, considering the police weren't there.
Eyewitness statements I've read refer to a struggle between both parties but none have documented Brown actually going for his gun.
So if you could reference where you got that from that would be great.

The eyewitness statement of Dorian Johnson specifically states that "Brown did not reach for his weapon at all" and he was inches away from both Brown & Wilson.

The eyewitness accounts that I've read have corroborated with the autopsy report - where they claim that Brown was shot while he was running away from the police officer. At that point the police officer would have not been in fear of his life by Brown, correct? So why is it then justifiable to shoot him at least 3/4 more times? When the person has their hands up?

 

[Sir Matt]

Isn't Johnson the one who said he got shot in the back?

 

[Skizzo]

Which eyewitnesses claim that Brown charged the officer and tried to take his gun? Aside from the police documentation of course, considering the police weren't there.
Eyewitness statements I've read refer to a struggle between both parties but none have documented Brown actually going for his gun.
So if you could reference where you got that from that would be great.

The eyewitness statement of Dorian Johnson specifically states that "Brown did not reach for his weapon at all" and he was inches away from both Brown & Wilson.

The eyewitness accounts that I've read have corroborated with the autopsy report - where they claim that Brown was shot while he was running away from the police officer. At that point the police officer would have not been in fear of his life by Brown, correct? So why is it then justifiable to shoot him at least 3/4 more times? When the person has their hands up?

None of the autopsy reports ive seen show Brown shot in the back. There were multiple shots on his arm, and the fatal head shot. The shots to the arm are consistent with the injuries sustained from the officer who had his eye socket fractured, so he would have had a hard time aiming, hence the multiple shots.

ill see if I can dig the other information back up and link it.

 

[Goalfather]

None of the autopsy reports ive seen show Brown shot in the back. There were multiple shots on his arm, and the fatal head shot. The shots to the arm are consistent with the injuries sustained from the officer who had his eye socket fractured, so he would have had a hard time aiming, hence the multiple shots.

ill see if I can dig the other information back up and link it.

Dorian Johnson was not the only witness to the shooting and whilst there may be some argument as to what happened prior to the shots being fired, one thing is clear that just before Michael Brown was fatally shot, he was about to surrender. There is no mention of Brown charging the police officer in any of the witness statements.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/cul...ess_accounts_of_michael_brown_s_shooting.html

 

[Eriku]

It kind of also screws up the credibility of the police that they've been trying to claim that they were going for Brown over his stealing from a store, which they definitely were not, seeing as nobody from the store called the police regarding that.

There's clearly nobody who watches the watchers. This is becoming so routine, and generally against the underpriveleged... The US is in the turmoils of class warfare, essentially.

 

[Sir Matt]

It kind of also screws up the credibility of the police that they've been trying to claim that they were going for Brown over his stealing from a store, which they definitely were not, seeing as nobody from the store called the police regarding that.

There's clearly nobody who watches the watchers. This is becoming so routine, and generally against the underpriveleged... The US is in the turmoils of class warfare, essentially.

They haven't said they were going after him because he stole the cigars. They just released the video at the press conference but said that it wasn't related to the shooting.

He was stopped because he was walking down the middle of the street.

 

[Eriku]

They haven't said they were going after him because he stole the cigars. They just released the video at the press conference but said that it wasn't related to the shooting.

He was stopped because he was walking down the middle of the street.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...asing-name-of-officer-who-shot-michael-brown/

There's been some backing and forthing on this one.

You can find plenty of other sources stating the same thing, that there were documents released outlining that he was a suspect and that this was part of the reason for the altercation.

 

[Sir Matt]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...asing-name-of-officer-who-shot-michael-brown/

There's been some backing and forthing on this one.

You can find plenty of other sources stating the same thing, that there were documents released outlining that he was a suspect and that this was part of the reason for the altercation.

The article you linked shows that the police didn't say he was stopped for the robbery. Initially, they released the officer's name and the video/story of the robbery at the same time and didn't say that they were connected. Most of the media jumped to the conclusion, despite it never being stated, that the two were related. It may have been intentional that they let people assume that, even if they say it was related to media requests. Letting people infer something isn't the same as telling them.

While this corresponds with what Brown’s friend, Dorian Johnson, had been telling media outlets, it does appear to contradict the conclusion that many had drawn from a news conference Jackson had held earlier in the day. Jackson had said that Brown was the suspect in a robbery that occurred not far from where he was killed, releasing a police report and video footage connected to the robbery.

 

[Eriku]

The article you linked shows that the police didn't say he was stopped for the robbery. Initially, they released the officer's name and the video/story of the robbery at the same time and didn't say that they were connected. Most of the media jumped to the conclusion, despite it never being stated, that the two were related. It may have been intentional that they let people assume that, even if they say it was related to media requests. Letting people infer something isn't the same as telling them.

You don't find it disingenuous for the police to drum up this stolen cigar case, when the store owner placed no call or report on this, right after they'd shot and killed the boy? Whatever the sequence of events, they've clearly tried to create a dishonest narrative that justifies their actions.

 

[Sir Matt]

You don't find it disingenuous for the police to drum up this stolen cigar case, when the store owner placed no call or report on this, right after they'd shot and killed the boy? Whatever the sequence of events, they've clearly tried to create a dishonest narrative that justifies their actions.

From your article:

According to the report, Ferguson police officers received a call at 11:51 a.m. about a robbery in progress at a convenience store and were given the description of a suspect.

I'm not saying their release isn't disingenuous or that it was intended to allow for certain inferences, but they didn't say that they were related.

 

[Eriku]

From your article:



I'm not saying their release isn't disingenuous or that it was intended to allow for certain inferences, but they didn't say that they were related.

Ah, sorry, I was fetching the article solely to corroborate the police's using the cigar incident to partially justify their actions (indirectly), I didn't read the whole thing. I'd previously read about how the store owner, through his attorney, stated that they never called the police, and I wasn't aware that a customer had done so.

 

[villain]

None of the autopsy reports ive seen show Brown shot in the back. There were multiple shots on his arm, and the fatal head shot. The shots to the arm are consistent with the injuries sustained from the officer who had his eye socket fractured, so he would have had a hard time aiming, hence the multiple shots.

ill see if I can dig the other information back up and link it.

Only one eyewitness claimed he was shot while running with his back to the police officer.
The rest say he was shot approx 6 or 7 feet away while his hands up facing Wilson - hence why there were so many bullets in his arm, and the fatal shot that killed him hit his head at an angle that would've most likely have meant that Brown's head was tilted downward.

 

[Skizzo]

Dorian Johnson was not the only witness to the shooting and whilst there may be some argument as to what happened prior to the shots being fired, one thing is clear that just before Michael Brown was fatally shot, he was about to surrender. There is no mention of Brown charging the police officer in any of the witness statements.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/cul...ess_accounts_of_michael_brown_s_shooting.html

Well considering Johnson has a prior theft, and has lied to officers in the past...he probably wont make the best star witness. Shame his statements already incited the race based riots everyone seemed to want.

http://wtkr.com/2014/08/18/michael-brown-rushed-officer-before-he-was-shot-report-says/

Truth is, very few people know what actually happened, and they will all be skewed a certain way based on everyones agenda.

 

[Sherzad]

LiveLeak.com - St. Louis police release video, audio of deadly police shooting (graphic) http://po.st/6hpG4x via @po_st

 

[Goalfather]

Well considering Johnson has a prior theft, and has lied to officers in the past...he probably wont make the best star witness. Shame his statements already incited the race based riots everyone seemed to want.

http://wtkr.com/2014/08/18/michael-brown-rushed-officer-before-he-was-shot-report-says/

Truth is, very few people know what actually happened, and they will all be skewed a certain way based on everyones agenda.

Quite understandable if Johnson's statement is questioned but what about the other witnesses who more or less confirm that Brown was actually surrendering when he was shot. What was their agenda?

 

[Skizzo]

Quite understandable if Johnson's statement is questioned but what about the other witnesses who more or less confirm that Brown was actually surrendering when he was shot. What was their agenda?

Depends what "more or less surrendering" means. The placement of the shots makes me find it hard to believe that he had his arms up surrendering, since one of the bullets pierced his arm and into his torso. If I charge at someone, I'd lower my head to try and protect myself while closing the distance. No reason to think he wouldn't do the same. I'm not saying every witness has some "agenda" as to their statements, but I also know in the heat of the moment, people can be unsure of what they really saw. Especially when it comes to racial issues. How many of those important witness testimonies suddenly fell apart after their first hand view of Brown being shot in the back while running away was debunked by an autopsy?

 

[Goalfather]

Depends what "more or less surrendering" means. The placement of the shots makes me find it hard to believe that he had his arms up surrendering, since one of the bullets pierced his arm and into his torso. If I charge at someone, I'd lower my head to try and protect myself while closing the distance. No reason to think he wouldn't do the same. I'm not saying every witness has some "agenda" as to their statements, but I also know in the heat of the moment, people can be unsure of what they really saw. Especially when it comes to racial issues. How many of those important witness testimonies suddenly fell apart after their first hand view of Brown being shot in the back while running away was debunked by an autopsy?

So are you saying that the eye witness testimony should be discredited because the eyewitnesses are black!

 

[Skizzo]

So are you saying that the eye witness testimony should be discredited because the eyewitnesses are black!

Absolutely not. Their testimony shouldn't be discredited due to their race. My first point said things happen in the heat of the moment, and memories can be skewed. My last part said that lots of the witnesses suddenly looked foolish because their "eye witness reports" didn't match the facts coming out. The point I was making in regards to racial issues playing a factor was in regards to how many people blindly started protesting and jumping on the bandwagon just because of the race of the involved parties. How many people do you think jumped into the protests based solely on the report of Brown's friend at the scene, and he didn't even get his story straight.

 

[villain]

Absolutely not. Their testimony shouldn't be discredited due to their race. My first point said things happen in the heat of the moment, and memories can be skewed. My last part said that lots of the witnesses suddenly looked foolish because their "eye witness reports" didn't match the facts coming out. The point I was making in regards to racial issues playing a factor was in regards to how many people blindly started protesting and jumping on the bandwagon just because of the race of the involved parties. How many people do you think jumped into the protests based solely on the report of Brown's friend at the scene, and he didn't even get his story straight.

Which eyewitnesses again? I thought you were going to find this out.

Because the only eyewitness report that I read that said he was shot in the back was from one person - Johnson - who you already discredited yourself due to his prior criminal history.

What other eyewitnesses claim he was shot in the back?
Once you make a statement to the cops you can't make changes or alterations.

Edit - also the autopsy backed up the eyewitness reports, because the 3/4 bullets entered at an angle on his inner arm (unless the officer could literally fire multiple bullets within the crevice of your arm when its by your side) so his arms were most likely to have been raised - not necessarily above his head but certainly raised in the air palm facing Wilson. Palm facing because one bullet entered his hand on the palm facing side.

 

[Nobby style]

 

[Snowjoe]

While that's all well and good, and while in this case the guy killed was unarmed, the general population of America is more highly armed than you will find in the UK. I'd expect to see many more shots fired in the US. The population is much much higher too.

 

[Nobby style]

Everybody says pretty much the same thing.

 

[Nobby style]

While that's all well and good, and while in this case the guy killed was unarmed, the general population of America is more highly armed than you will find in the UK. I'd expect to see many more shots fired in the US. The population is much much higher too.

But jesus, it's one single shooting of an unarmed man vs one western, industrial multi cultured and multi ethnic country in an entire year. I mean, what the feck?

 

[Snowjoe]

But jesus, it's one single shooting of an unarmed man vs one western, industrial multi cultured and multi ethnic country in an entire year. I mean, what the feck?

I'm missing your point here completely? I wasn't commenting on this case, just on the difference in shots between the two countries.

 

[villain]

Everybody says pretty much the same thing.

So all the eyewitness reports say pretty much the same thing.

Brown was running away, the police man was actually firing shots while his back was turned he just didn't hit his target.
He then turned around, had his hands up, told the officer he wasn't armed and the officer still shot him many times.

Why he didn't arrest him or put him in handcuffs is beyond me, but seemingly the price of a human being's life must mean so little, or what Brown did was so horrible he was deserving of death.

And some people actually see nothing wrong with this, baffling.

 

[Nobby style]

The worse thing about all this is how many people jump to conclusions without the whole story being out. Then you have the media making it into a racial issue, not to mention you then have pro sports teams trying to make their own statements on the issue and just causing further conflicts.

As an officer, you're trained to choose your use of force carefully. You're never trained to fight on an equal playing field, (eg, hands vs hands) If a person reaches for your gun on your belt, the only logical reason he would be going for it, is to use it to kill you. In that case, you have your justification for deadly force. If it's a 6'4, 300lbs man, regardless of race, one shot to center mass isn't likely to stop him. Not to mention, why fire once? If he's in a state of mind that he thinks his only option is to charge an officer, then I would certainly contemplate that he may be on drugs. I've watched countless people on drugs get shot, stabbed, hit by cars etc, and keep coming. You don't stop until the threat is gone.

Countless??? Just curious, where do you live? Sounds pretty rough.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Countless??? Just curious, where do you live? Sounds pretty rough.

he watches "real tv" 24/7

 

[Grinner]

'I've killed a lot. And if I need to, I'll kill a whole bunch more': Racist, sexist, homophobic speech from St Louis County police officer in Ferguson who pushed CNN's Don Lemon live on-air

• St Louis County police officer Dan Page has been suspended after a video of him giving a hate-filled speech to far-right group surfaced
• Page was seen on CNN on Monday pushing anchor Don Lemon as he reported live from Ferguson
• Page spews vitriol about black people, gay people, President Obama, Muslims and more
• His extreme views include that the government is trying to indoctrinate children to spy on their parents at public schools
• He claims there are 'four sodomites in the Supreme Court' as he rages against hate-laws
• He says, 'I personally believe in Jesus Christ as my lord savior, but I'm also a killer. I’ve killed a lot. And if I need to, I'll kill a whole bunch more'
• Page calls Obama 'my undocumented president'
• He claims to be a Vietnam veteran and has 35 years with the St Louis County police
• An investigation is pending

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-CNN-s-Don-Lemon-live-air.html#ixzz3BE9pm9Id


There is actually a reporter called Don Lemon? Cool.

 

[Marcosdeto]

'I've killed a lot. And if I need to, I'll kill a whole bunch more': Racist, sexist, homophobic speech from St Louis County police officer in Ferguson who pushed CNN's Don Lemon live on-air

• St Louis County police officer Dan Page has been suspended after a video of him giving a hate-filled speech to far-right group surfaced
• Page was seen on CNN on Monday pushing anchor Don Lemon as he reported live from Ferguson
• Page spews vitriol about black people, gay people, President Obama, Muslims and more
• His extreme views include that the government is trying to indoctrinate children to spy on their parents at public schools
• He claims there are 'four sodomites in the Supreme Court' as he rages against hate-laws
• He says, 'I personally believe in Jesus Christ as my lord savior, but I'm also a killer. I’ve killed a lot. And if I need to, I'll kill a whole bunch more'
• Page calls Obama 'my undocumented president'
• He claims to be a Vietnam veteran and has 35 years with the St Louis County police
• An investigation is pending

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-CNN-s-Don-Lemon-live-air.html#ixzz3BE9pm9Id


There is actually a reporter called Don Lemon? Cool.

somehow, some caffite will come and justify him and the sistem that allows people like him become police officers

 

[Yorkeontop]

So the police report is missing information. I've been alarmed by that departments lack of transparency in regards to what actually happened. Its as if they don't feel comfortable with their story. Maybe I'm ignorant and the story is out there.

 

[Skizzo]

somehow, some caffite will come and justify him and the sistem that allows people like him become police officers

If that's supposed to be in regards to me, then no, I wouldn't justify power hungry officials or people who get a badge and a gun and suddenly think they're untouchable. All I've done in this thread is discuss the other side of the coin and try and offer a perspective from a law enforcement side. The facts from both sides have been disputed, and the narratives will change the more facts that come out. All ive done is try and offer more to the discussion that your condescending comments about racist cops and what tv I watch. Apologies for trying to actually have a discussion on here with people about an incident rather than just bashing based on the races involved.

 

[Skizzo]

So all the eyewitness reports say pretty much the same thing.

Brown was running away, the police man was actually firing shots while his back was turned he just didn't hit his target.
He then turned around, had his hands up, told the officer he wasn't armed and the officer still shot him many times.

Why he didn't arrest him or put him in handcuffs is beyond me, but seemingly the price of a human being's life must mean so little, or what Brown did was so horrible he was deserving of death.

And some people actually see nothing wrong with this, baffling.

Sorry for taking a while to reply, cranky newborn demands attention...who knew

Anyway, not all witnesses have said the same thing. A lot more have backed up the officers story than have backed up Johnson's version.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/19/p...nxEXvg-g9pX49mk3XlxHVpQ&bvm=bv.73612305,d.b2U

http://buzzpo.com/breaking-news-new-witness-blows-huge-hole-michael-brown-case/

like I said before, people are going have different views, vantage points, and agendas. All ive tried to offer is information like you have so we can have a discussion about it. We arent going to solve the case, but I do appreciate you being able to actually discuss it and put your tthoughts across. ....even if you will never agree with anything I have to say about it