Doesn't matter if he was the best of a bad bunch. You just implied Moyes got sacked because of him now you're saying he didn't? Empty comments as usual. Truth is 6 managers (3 of them considered best of the modern era) believed Rooney was important for the team.
Rooney Contract Haggling / Transfer Requests Revisited
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Doesn't matter if he was the best of a bad bunch. You just implied Moyes got sacked because of him now you're saying he didn't? Empty comments as usual. Truth is 6 managers (3 of them considered best of the modern era) believed Rooney was important for the team.
You are the one that cooked "Moyes getting sacked because of him". I'll the comment synthesis to you! You were adamant that because certain managers put their trust in him, he is the truth. All I said was that 3 of those failed if not miserably, so I'm not sure why anyone should be using these manager's (Moyes, LvG and Hodgson) trust in a player that never yield positive results in their regime as a reason to justify Rooney. Manager's that looked out of their depth half the time!
Fergie never treated Rooney like the way these other managers did, I guess he was just smarter! That leaves us with Allardyce and José. No point commenting on the former and there is little to suggest José "believes" as you say, in Rooney, other than the fact that he is the captain. Until then time will tell.
Feel free to deduce another comment from this one too!
You're going around in circles. Your logic is based on "managers failed so if they trusted Rooney it doesn't matter". That makes no sense. If it was one or two managers fair enough but 6 managers believe Rooney is worth starting but mister dichinero and some others on the CAF think they are all wrong.
EDIT: Also Fergie didn't fail.
I think I remember his camp after the saga coming out with comments that the 'ambition' reason was just a feint, what he really wanted was more money which he ended up getting in the end. The second time I can't really blame Moyes much tbh, Fergie had just retired and if we had just sold our talisman to Chelsea for 50mn after it would not have reflected well on us. It explains why every subsequent manager has been mildly pandering towards his wishes.
this is on a slight tangent as what Ronaldo once did has no bearing on our current handling of Rooney but i agree with this, right from the 2006 WC saga to his behavior during the 2008 summer onwards Ronaldo's behaviour was disgraceful. It tarnished an entire summer of what should have been celebrations after we had won the CL.
When it suits you, LvG becomes the best of the modern era and when it doesn't, he's an old plonker. Isn't he?the season Fergie retired he was set to replace Rooney with Ozil in the summer
No I really dislike the guy and think he was a dinosaur but he wasn't a nobody like your or I. After all he is a professional Football manager. The point I'm trying to make (and which should be obvious) is that it is unlikely any manager would drop/replace Rooney right now. If you can't see that with how the managers have trusted in his abilities and seen his worth I don't know how you will.
Let's not go ott. He is doing ok, he isn't playing very well
The term doesn't matter. Point is he deserves his spot.
Critical goal in the first match, great assists in the second and third match so far. He isn't getting dropped for the Manchester Derby, although it's funny that the amount of stick he gave to Nani in his time here, he seems to have become just like him. Inconsistent throughout the whole match but having one moment of brilliance.
I'll ask again, could anyone tell me what is qualities as a footballer are? The qualities that made Rooney a special player when he was younger have disappeared.
Qualities - he still is an excellent finisher. He seems to have a good passing ability. He also has the ability to conjure up the extra magic when we need it
What he lost - acceleration (even though apparently he is quite fast), agility (he doesnt have the same agility he had years back), free kick and set piece ability (he was an excellent FK taker till about 2013. now he is poor at it).
None of it seem to be ignored by anyone, mourinho took him off FKs and even penalties it seems. Corners yes but he is the shortest so it makes sense for him to take it i guess. Mata takes from the other side for the same reason even though he isnt all that better. Most rooney "supporters" or "fanboys" accept that he is in decline but that doesnt mean he is useless though.
Nani's issues were mostly dire decision making at times, he could always control a ball tbf.
The problem is that those contract renewal methods got him more money but he truly lost the love of many fans. No one wants a mercenary. From that moment it became a business relationship.
Another problem with such behaviour is that fans aren't as willing to cut him slack. He demanded some of the highest wages in world football on par with the Messi and Ronaldo's of this world. That he hasn't been even been the best player in Manchester over most of that period stings. I don't think it's necessarily about money. For many,it's the undeserved privilleges he gets as a result of being out highest paid player.
As for not selling to Chelsea,I completely agree. We couldn't afford to sell our biggest name to our biggest rivals over the last decade on the same summer we lost Sir Alex.
I think the contract length was a problem though. I thought he was in decline in 2013 so a 5 year contract felt excessive. But we had to keep him then,or at least sell him to the continent.
Not sure about that. He doesn't get into finishing positions enough these days and honestly was never an 'excellent' finisher anyway. In 11 seasons he only scored more than 20 goals 3 times with us.
His biggest quality for me these days is that he never shy's away from the ball. If only his use of it was as great as his desire of it.
I keep seeing that he is still an excellent finisher, really? Messi, Aguero, Lewandowski etc are excellent finishers. Heck, Defoe and Rashford are better finishers than Rooney and I would not even call them excellent finishers. Maybe a good finisher and even then he will have to be in the box more than 0 times in a match to start a discussion on his current level of finishing.
An excellent post. I constantly yo-yo on my feelings towards Rooney.
For so long Rooney was our 'heartbeat', he personally won us many games and a few cups and we all loved him for that.
But as fans, we have a singular and undiluted love for our club, and we identify with players who demonstrate similar. And you correctly identity the moments when Rooney demonstrated his relationship was conditional. On that day, many fans responded accordingly with an equally conditional relationship based purely on value for money.
And on that basis, I reject many of his personal misdemeaners and do not believe he justifies his wages or status at the club. This assessment comes from a transactional point of view, which is how Rooney has forced my assessment of him.
And yet, I'm also mindful that 6 highly knowledgable managers have lauded his contributions to their team, he is respected by his peer group, he has contributed virtually all his professional life to our cause and he remains inconsistently effective and capable of singularly winning games.
Its a complicated and oscillating relationship which on balance I think the managers have called right: Its still hugely advantageous to have Rooney in the mix, despite the fact that we are handicapped with him due to his monstrous contract.
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Fecking hell mate he's scored 246 goals in 12 years for us despite only ever really playing one full season as an out and out striker in 2009/10.
It's safe to say the guy's an excellent finisher. Shouldn't really be debatable but with it being Rooney there will always be someone ready to argue about every compliment he is given.
he is the country and club top scorer though? Surely you have to be more than just a good finisher to be that? THese days i agree he lost that pace he had to get away from his defenders or to get to 50/50s considerably reducing his shots but if he gets 3 or 4 shots there is a very good chance one of them would be a goal, which I doubt is any different to many strikers (other than Messi and the likes of course). His problem these days seem to be his ability to get such chances rather than finishing chances. Basically he is the opposite of Torres at chelsea who while he got excellent chances could barely finish them.
Finishing ability isn't static, it can change over time. There's more to it than just putting the ball in the back of the net. Of those 246 goals how many needed his athleticism, speed, strength, quick feet, a left foot? If you haven't got those attributes anymore your finishing is affected.
A- In 2009 Ronaldo left to Real Madrid. That was a double hit for United (we lost our main poster boy and gave it to our direct rivals)
B- In 2010, Rooney (our main poster boy at the time) threw the dummy during contract negotiations. The club who was desperate not to lose their main guy after having lost Ronaldo just a year before, threw caches of money towards his direction and Rooney signed a 5 year contract on prince like conditions.
C- In 2012 (3 year contract left on Rooney’s contract), Manchester United went all the way to get RVP and Kagawa. These two players play in Rooney’s role. Rooney was often benched or played out of position during that season.
D- In summer 2013 (2 years left on Rooney’s contract) Rooney went to SAF office enquiring about his future about being first teamer. SAF spilled everything to the media that Rooney wants to leave again.
I think that the argument Rooney vs SAF is far more sober and ruthless then people think. Clubs invest loads of money and effort to build a player’s hype so they can benefit from it through merchandizing /sponsorship deals. When a the top dog threatens to leave, then one have to plan. By the looks of it, it’s the classic argument between a decent player who wants to make as much money as possible from his career and a manager who was caught dumbfounded the first time round and who refuse to see the club being exposed again. Rooney of 2010 was indispensable for United. Rooney of 2013 wasn’t
B- In 2010, Rooney (our main poster boy at the time) threw the dummy during contract negotiations. The club who was desperate not to lose their main guy after having lost Ronaldo just a year before, threw caches of money towards his direction and Rooney signed a 5 year contract on prince like conditions.
C- In 2012 (3 year contract left on Rooney’s contract), Manchester United went all the way to get RVP and Kagawa. These two players play in Rooney’s role. Rooney was often benched or played out of position during that season.
D- In summer 2013 (2 years left on Rooney’s contract) Rooney went to SAF office enquiring about his future about being first teamer. SAF spilled everything to the media that Rooney wants to leave again.
I think that the argument Rooney vs SAF is far more sober and ruthless then people think. Clubs invest loads of money and effort to build a player’s hype so they can benefit from it through merchandizing /sponsorship deals. When a the top dog threatens to leave, then one have to plan. By the looks of it, it’s the classic argument between a decent player who wants to make as much money as possible from his career and a manager who was caught dumbfounded the first time round and who refuse to see the club being exposed again. Rooney of 2010 was indispensable for United. Rooney of 2013 wasn’t
The truth is people talk about Keane, Ferdinand & Ronaldo and how their actions were at least as bad (if not worse) and how Rooney gets unfair stick. Surely everyone realises though that affection for players is a combination of their character and their performances on the pitch. Keane held us to ransom for his contract, but went on to be (or continued to be) one of the best midfielders in the world for 4-5 years afterwards and earned that contract ten-fold. Ronaldo flirted with Real Madrid regularly but was consistently one of (if not the) best players in the world for the duration. Ferdinand likewise put in performances that were more than in-keeping with his bump in salary as a result of his meeting with Kenyon.
Rooney's initial transfer request in 2010 left a bitter taste firstly because of the ridiculous opportunism; he'd just had his best season in a United shirt and we'd just lost Ronaldo/Tevez. His comments were also very disrespectful to the rest of the squad (it's one thing some random keyboard warrior complaining about our transfer business, but one of our players doing so is unacceptable). However all would have been forgotten within a few years if he continued to perform as he had 09/10; unfortunately for the following 3 years he was very inconsistent, having one great season and 2 average ones by the expectations he had pinned his mast to (by criticising the rest of the squad). These inconsistent performances culminated in him being moved around the pitch and occasionally being dropped or taken off early in matches. Rooney's subsequent transfer request and large pay rise in 2013 have been followed by 3 seasons of abject mediocrity. His performances on the pitch have been at a level for the 3 years since that overall would be hard to justify for a player on half his salary.
So it's quite simple. When you kick up a fuss, criticise your teammates, criticise the manager and strategy of the club and demand a huge contract making you among the best paid players on the planet... To not have this held against you, your performances on the pitch have to match your rhetoric. If Rooney had performed for the last 6 seasons as he did 09/10 this thread wouldn't exist.
When your actions purport you to be among the best few players in the world, the following is nowhere near good enough:
Ballon d'Or
2012 - 15th
2013 - Not nominated
2014 - Not nominated
2015 - Not nominated
2016 - Not nominated
Rooney's initial transfer request in 2010 left a bitter taste firstly because of the ridiculous opportunism; he'd just had his best season in a United shirt and we'd just lost Ronaldo/Tevez. His comments were also very disrespectful to the rest of the squad (it's one thing some random keyboard warrior complaining about our transfer business, but one of our players doing so is unacceptable). However all would have been forgotten within a few years if he continued to perform as he had 09/10; unfortunately for the following 3 years he was very inconsistent, having one great season and 2 average ones by the expectations he had pinned his mast to (by criticising the rest of the squad). These inconsistent performances culminated in him being moved around the pitch and occasionally being dropped or taken off early in matches. Rooney's subsequent transfer request and large pay rise in 2013 have been followed by 3 seasons of abject mediocrity. His performances on the pitch have been at a level for the 3 years since that overall would be hard to justify for a player on half his salary.
So it's quite simple. When you kick up a fuss, criticise your teammates, criticise the manager and strategy of the club and demand a huge contract making you among the best paid players on the planet... To not have this held against you, your performances on the pitch have to match your rhetoric. If Rooney had performed for the last 6 seasons as he did 09/10 this thread wouldn't exist.
When your actions purport you to be among the best few players in the world, the following is nowhere near good enough:
Ballon d'Or
2012 - 15th
2013 - Not nominated
2014 - Not nominated
2015 - Not nominated
2016 - Not nominated
A - Ronaldo and Rio were fantastic players, the best in their role (and generation). I know its unfair but people tend to close an eye to exceptional players. Maradona at Napoli, Best at United....the list go on and on.
B- Keane nearly left the club out of principle. He wanted to be paid 100k a week. Once we gave him his 100k a week he turned down Juventus despite them paying him a much higher salary than that. Dont forget that we're talking about a time where players were expected to get paycuts or lose out from their bonuses just to sign with us. Some did that (Stam and Yorke for example) others rightfully laughed at us (ex Batistuta). Why should a top player, in his prime, take a pay cut to move from frigging Fiorentina to the so called best club in the world?
Yeah i'm not going to argue with that mate. As players age certainly their ability to score can diminish. And i would say Rooney's definitely has because of some of the factors you list, he has declined physically.
But re-read the post i was replying to, it's not talking about Rooney now but Rooney over his whole career.
Thats the part i disagree with. No one scores 250 goals in just over a decade without being an excellent finisher.
He might not get into as many positions to score these days as he did in the past, but if given a chance in the box more often than not he will finish it.
A
A great post. Agree with all of it.
I'd have agreed about his finishing a few years ago but even that has declined rapidly. AS for his passing its very avera
That contract Keane got was nothing like 100k a week, it was for 50k a week. Even then United took the piss saying ST's were going up in price because of Keane's contract.
Ah in was responding to your quote below where you're referring to Rooney in the present.
He could/should already be on three goals this season. That would be the mark of an excellent finisher. As it is the one goal he got was a header 5 yards out.
Come on mate in that post i'm obviously referring to Rooney over his whole career given the context of the post i was replying to and the fact thats only half of my post. The other bit mentioning 246 goals and 12 years should point to that.
Yeah no doubt mate but as we know he's not exactly been playing well despite contributing. Having said that though others have missed chances as well, missing chances doesn't mean someone isn't a good finisher.
The point stands though it's nonsense to say someone with over 260 career goals, soon to be United's all time top scorer and Englands all time top scorer was never an excellent finisher. It's petty shit like that that annoys people myself included, the constant attempts by some to rewrite history to make it out as if Rooney was only ever a rich mans Charlie Adam are not needed to criticize him in the present.
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Fixed your post
I honestly wish the other 9 outfield players just ignored Rooney for the duration of the match. It might actually lead to more coherent performances on the pitch, even if it effectively means playing with 10 men.
Nah...he's the long-ball Prosinečki.
Robi was outstandingly amazing. It fits.
Nah...he's the long-ball Prosinečki.
I wish Rooney was as good as Prosinecki in midfield.
Which one didn't believe in Rooney? If you're referring to Fergie talks of him wanting to get rid is nothing but speculation (just like people would say LVG would get rid of him next week and Moyes will get rid of him now)
Don't really have any problem with Rooney's negotiations with the club in 2010 or questioning the club's ability to compete in the transfer market at the time. I think too much is made of him using the word ambition, but I think it's obvious that was implied wasn't that Ferguson or the club no longer wanted to win at the highest level, but they were either unable or unwilling to compete for top quality players in the transfer market.
09: Sell Ronaldo for £80m and bring in Valencia for £16m and cheap punts on Obertan and Diouf
10: Sign Hernandez for £6m, Smalling for £7m and Bebe for £7.5m
I also believe at this time many fans also felt the same way and voiced opinions as such. Hell during the 2nd leg of the AC Milan CL tie in 2010 there was a huge green and gold protest at OT over the Glazers loading the club in debt and therefore being unable to spend the Ronaldo money in the transfer market.
People will feel how they do about Rooney, but for me the 2010 negotiation doesn't matter all that much and I don't actually think what Rooney said was terribly wrong given the information we had at the time. The club should have been more willing to spend in the market, but it wasn't. Luckily we had SAF who was still able to keep the club extremely competitive at the top level.
09: Sell Ronaldo for £80m and bring in Valencia for £16m and cheap punts on Obertan and Diouf
10: Sign Hernandez for £6m, Smalling for £7m and Bebe for £7.5m
I also believe at this time many fans also felt the same way and voiced opinions as such. Hell during the 2nd leg of the AC Milan CL tie in 2010 there was a huge green and gold protest at OT over the Glazers loading the club in debt and therefore being unable to spend the Ronaldo money in the transfer market.
People will feel how they do about Rooney, but for me the 2010 negotiation doesn't matter all that much and I don't actually think what Rooney said was terribly wrong given the information we had at the time. The club should have been more willing to spend in the market, but it wasn't. Luckily we had SAF who was still able to keep the club extremely competitive at the top level.
I have no problem with Rooney whatsoever. As United's new main poster boy he was entitled to be paid handsomely for it just as SAF was entitled in trying to get rid of him 3 years later (ie once his performance didn't justified the salary). Business is business and fans are far too emotional.
TBF I wished SAF was as ruthless with everybody including the class of 92, the people he loaned his players too and his coaching staff.
I think you're wrong on that one. I remember that saga pretty well and that include interviews made from the Juventus camp about it.
Nah if this is 99-00 you are talking about then it was definitely £50k he got in his contract. I doubt there was a player in the world on £100kpw in 1999.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...t-united-for-pounds-50000-a-week-1130914.html
He claimed Juve & Bayern were willing to pay him 100k a week but settled for just over 50k a week at United. It was years later before United paid anyone 100k a week. I reckon you'd have to Ronaldo signing a new contract in either 2006 or 2007 before the club broke the 100k a week.