feck the EU
Russia Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
feck the EU
What about the Ukranian forces? Are they any good in anything other than shooting demonstrating civilians?
Its honestly a surprise if outside forces can just take control of installments without any uproar from EU or US for that matter. Where are the police in this divide?
World policing no longer exists. Why would anyone expect the US, nevermind the EU, to get involved if Putin wants some Russian territory back? Putin pretty much knows he can do what he wants.
Remember there is a huge Russian naval base in the Crimea (leased from Ukraine) so it's not hard to deploy troops. As for the police/security forces, many are pro-Russian, particularly in the Crimea.
Holyland Red probably sums it up well - after the US retreat on intervention in Syria, Russia thinks it can afford to gamble in this instance (particularly as they have a reasonable historical claim to that chunk of territory in the first place).
Takeover communications, isolate the peninsula from the rest of the country? Or maybe something more oblique - create a crisis and so justify intervention to restore order and protect ethnic Russians?
I may be wrong and these people may just be local thugs who spontaneously took over the airport but things are rarely as they seem in this part of the world.
They could just be a group of pro-Russian thugs who want to kick up a fuss by claiming the airport. That said, I wouldn't doubt they have some sort of backing from Russian elements hoping to foment pro-Russian sentiment.
At the very least there would be backing for them, although I suspect that it is more direct. By way of background to the question of Russian involvement, the propaganda campaign on Russian TV (which is also watched by people in Eastern Ukraine) is right out of the Goebbels manual - the anti-Yanukovych protesters are depicted as fascists and neo-Nazis (and, while some of the diverse elements on Maidan undoubtedly were unsavoury characters, most just want an end to endemic thieving and corruption - an estimated $10-12 billion a year was being extracted from the economy by the Yanukovych "family"). Of course it would not suit state-controlled Russian TV to discuss the anti-corruption angle as it may raise questions closer to home...
Ukraine officials claim those that took over the airport are Russian troops. Though their evidence seems a bit fishy. It's from a Tartar source...
It's a goddamn shit show over there. Russia has seemingly used military force in an attempt to seize Crimea. This has been the information from a variety of sources, and is further supported by the White Houses prompt statement on the matter. If this proves to be the case the UK and the West will potentially be obliged to respond militarily as they have previously guaranteed the territorial and political sovereignty of Ukraine.
It is really hard to overstate what a potentially disastrous scenario this is. The world should be paying more attention.
It is really hard to overstate what a potentially disastrous scenario this is. The world should be paying more attention.
I'm not convinced that Crimea becoming part of Russia is necessarily a bad thing.
Tough crowd...
The West and US haven't done anything about South Ossetia so far, but Ukraine is, relatively, a more important country than Georgia and is in Europe. The Security Council won't do anything, obviously, but if Russia is allowed to annex Crimea, perhaps the West should start taking over various places. Poland can invade Kaliningrad Oblast.
How about us taking Sinai back?
Just Sinai? Might as well push everyone out of Gaza and the West Bank as well. If we're going to get everyone extra pissed off, might as well do it big.
We'd like to take Kosovo back, thank you very much.
Invading a country just to steal Januzaj sounds a bit over the top.
Taking back what belongs to you does not constitute for invasion, Sir.
Januzaj playing for Serbia would have been awesome though. Ah if only all conflicts could be resolved at football matches..
I don't really think this can constitute Russia seizing the Crimea if the allegations the armed men are Russian are true. Right now, I think you have to look at this as Russia taking steps to secure its strategic interests. Those being the naval base.
Hypothetically, if the US had a military base in Mexico or Canada, and either country suddenly had a Pro-American leader deposed in favor of what is likely going to be at the very least a moderately anti-American government you would see American troops moved into the area to secure the base.
If however suddenly troops start streaming across the border, something else is up! We also have to remember that the majority of the population in Crimea considers themselves Russian and I guess Russia considers them Russian as well? It's definitely a messy situation but I don't think the west should really be casting stones until Russia actually crosses the line. After-all we've been known to invade a country or two in the past!
Hypothetically, if the US had a military base in Mexico or Canada, and either country suddenly had a Pro-American leader deposed in favor of what is likely going to be at the very least a moderately anti-American government you would see American troops moved into the area to secure the base.
If however suddenly troops start streaming across the border, something else is up! We also have to remember that the majority of the population in Crimea considers themselves Russian and I guess Russia considers them Russian as well? It's definitely a messy situation but I don't think the west should really be casting stones until Russia actually crosses the line. After-all we've been known to invade a country or two in the past!
Isn't that what they all say ?
Januzaj will play for England....
Hitler playbook....
There's a good case that Ukraine should cede Crimea and move on without it. The sight of anonymous troops taking over the region is blood chilling.
Russia signed an agreement in 1994 to respect Ukrainian territorial boundaries if Ukraine gave up its nukes. They should abide by it.
So what are the Russians up to then eh? Is this the cold war part 2 between the ruskies and the yanks?
That's the worst meme I've ever seen.
Nothing like it. This is just like Georgia 2008 all over again.
Most commentators seem to think it's slightly more of an issue than that, given the importance of Ukraine. A few seem to think it's the worst since the fall of the Soviet Union. Then again, they probably don't get asked for their views in future if they just say "this is really not that big a deal".
Never the less it seems to be escalating fast, breaking on AP and ABC right now...
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/crimean-leader-claims-control-asks-putin-22729336
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/crimean-leader-claims-control-asks-putin-22729336
Like in 2008, The Russians are there at the request of the locals.
The trouble with allowing Russia to march into Crimea is that much of southern and eastern Ukraine speak Russian and to varying degrees, have a soft spot for Russia. What's to stop the "uncontested entry" into Ukraine from spreading north to places like Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkiv, and Odessa ?
I realize Putin's primary interest is continued, unimpeded access to the Sevastopol port (the only unfrozen port he has access to), but at some point the EU and others need to pull their fingers out and start pushing back hard on this.
I realize Putin's primary interest is continued, unimpeded access to the Sevastopol port (the only unfrozen port he has access to), but at some point the EU and others need to pull their fingers out and start pushing back hard on this.
What does pushing back hard mean though? We can say they're very naughty and trade agreements can suffer. We can snub them at the G8. Is there much else to be done without starting WW3?
It would mainly be economic and diplomatic. I'm sure the US could move a few aircraft carriers into the region for good measure, but that would be a bit counterproductive since Obama and Putin are in regular contact with one another. In essence, rather than feck the EU, the US would now have to work with the EU to come up with a common position on Ukraine, then engage Putin on it - using economic carrots and sticks to drive home their point.
In Putin's psychology, I reckon he wants to avoid looking impotent as thousands of pro-Russian Ukrainians are calling for him to do something. What needs to happen now is a negotiated cooling off where the Russians are guaranteed their naval forces and other interests in Crimea won't be overrun by pro-Ukrainians from the north.
No, and Putin knows it well. He also knows that Obama's "red lines" don't mean shit.
Sanctions, including visa bans and asset-freezing orders, would appear to be the most obvious method of hitting back, if targeted against state officials and Duma members rather than the Russian Federation as a whole. It's a lot less fun being a kleptocrat if you can't go to Western Europe to spend your ill-gotten gains.
I reckon that's what Putin wanted in the first place.
He could start by announcing that the missile defense systems that we decided not to put in Poland and the Czech Republic are back on as well as pursuing the Magnitsky Act.
Followed by Russia supplying Syria and Iran with S-300?
Its an option, but at this early stage would be a needless tit-for-tat escalation. Putting sufficient diplomatic and economic pressure on the Russians; combined with a bit of international naming and shaming; perhaps a call to revoke the World Cup etc, will do a lot imo.