All regions that were heavily populated with ethnic Russians and which were practically Russian already in all but name. There is no reason to believe that there is some sort of Russian invasion into larger parts of Eastern Europe on the horizon.
Russia Discussion
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All regions that were heavily populated with ethnic Russians and which were practically Russian already in all but name. There is no reason to believe that there is some sort of Russian invasion into larger parts of Eastern Europe on the horizon.
You call it appeasement, I call it picking your battles. South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Crimea mean more to the Russians than they do to anyone else.
Donetsk is majority Russian. Would Russia annexing eastern Ukraine be acceptable to you?
It would be interesting if the UK supported self determination as a moral rule, how this would square up with parts of Ukraine wanting to be part of Russia
If the local authorities have the support of the people in the region and they disagree with the line the new pro-EU government takes then I see no problem with that.
If Russia takes Crimea by force (and putting troops in Crimea for intimidation is force) this month with no response, what's to stop it from taking Donbas or Kharkiv? Perhaps they want to protect the ethnic Russian population in Latvia from the West? Putin's goal is to restore Russia's influence in Eastern Europe for the sake of prestige. He was incredibly embarrassed to watch the former Soviet satellites break away and largely leave Russia's sphere of influence in the 90s under Yeltsin. He's spoken about it before publicly and it plays well with the public who are eager for a return of some of the country's status.
After Ukraine began to trend towards the West in the last decade, Putin, via Yanukovich/PR, halted Ukraine's dialogue with both the EU and NATO while increasing the country's dependence on Russia for subsidies. Russia, in return for its investment and money sent to eastern Ukraine expects patronage from the people there and is getting it, unsurprisingly. After Russia has moved into Crimea with its military or mercenaries, there is no way any referendum can be considered legitimate. Look at what Russia does to its own citizens who speak out or protest against Putin, including journalists. They either end up in prison or dead. Alexei Navalny was yesterday put on house arrest for two months and banned from the internet or telephone to remove his most prominent critic from public life. Protestors from his inauguration were sentenced to 2-4 years in prison shortly after the Olympics ended, which conveniently avoided any international criticism because of the timing.
Do you think that anyone is going to come out and defy the Russian military that is in Crimea? The Tatars, Jews, Ukrainians, and others aren't going to vote no in the face of coercion. Meanwhile, when the referendum results come in and it is overwhelmingly pro-Russian, Putin gets to celebrate his perfectly executed democracy.
In 2008, it was "oh, it's only some small, backwater regions in the Caucasus." Now: "It's just Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Crimea. Russia won't try to expand anywhere else."
Rewinding a little bit here but ive been watching some of the shocking footage from the riots in which dozens of innocent people are killed by police snipers for no reason at all. People cowering behind shields and trying to drag wounded friends to safety are simply gunned down with no mercy...its unreal.
anyone would be better than the scum who did that, its not even like a heat of the moment few shots its cold hearted murder over a long period of time, hopefully if there is a conflict the ones who fired on the civilians will be brave enough to step forward and fire at people who can actually fire back but i somehow doubt it, scum.
anyone would be better than the scum who did that, its not even like a heat of the moment few shots its cold hearted murder over a long period of time, hopefully if there is a conflict the ones who fired on the civilians will be brave enough to step forward and fire at people who can actually fire back but i somehow doubt it, scum.
Putin is only trying to protect Ukraina's Russian population from an armed, right-wing mob that ousted an elected president by means of aggression and violence. The behaviour of the Ukrainian fascists over the last few weeks has been deeply disturbing. Putin has most likely prevented a massacre on the Russian civilian population.
The only way to get a legitimate govt was to have another election. The idea that Russian troops annexing part of a sovereign nation state increases the democratic process there doesn't make any sense to me. Unless you buy the idea that Russia gets to decide what happens in the Ukraine.
The rub for Putin is that the main opposition to him was the Ukrainian nationalists who hated Russian interference and this move will inspire them. The west doesn't need to confront Russia all it has to do now is arm those inside the Ukraine who will. I hope everyone takes a breath and pulls back from the potential disaster but the rhetoric doesn't sound promising. The Ukrainian govt is saying the Russians have started a war with them and you can't argue with their right to self defence in this situation.
If they ask us for help how do we turn them down after we said we would guarantee their border
And in the US, they prosecute proponents of free speech as traitors and invade other countries for oil under false pretenses of acting as world police. They also keep people incarcerated for years without a proper trial if they are seen as a threat to US interests.
I dont disagree with anything of what you are saying about the problems in Russia., its all true. There is a lot wrong going on in world politics as a whole.
But what I disagree with is the underlying message you are trying to put across, that Russia is a bigger threat to the world than other nations based on their actions in Ukraine. Its farcical and laughably hypocritical to pretend that what Russia is doing is any worse than what the west has done on countless occasions. In terms of actual invasions on a bigger scale than what Russia is doing now (Iraq) and meddling in the internal politics of other nations, something the US is doing daily on a global scale in a bid to weaken China, Russia and anti-western arab countries like Iran.
I dont disagree with anything of what you are saying about the problems in Russia., its all true. There is a lot wrong going on in world politics as a whole.
But what I disagree with is the underlying message you are trying to put across, that Russia is a bigger threat to the world than other nations based on their actions in Ukraine. Its farcical and laughably hypocritical to pretend that what Russia is doing is any worse than what the west has done on countless occasions. In terms of actual invasions on a bigger scale than what Russia is doing now (Iraq) and meddling in the internal politics of other nations, something the US is doing daily on a global scale in a bid to weaken China, Russia and anti-western arab countries like Iran.
Snowden, Bradley Manning.
The Ukrainian president would disagree. What Ukrainian government are you talking about? Who voted that government and whom do they represent?
Manning was prosecuted for espionage and theft. Snowden was also charged with theft. I don't care if they are proponents of free ice cream for everyone, your wording implies that they are being prosecuted as a direct crackdown on free spech when that is not the case.
That would be the elected members of parliament who are still there and didn't run away.
I must have missed the part where the Ukrainians elected Putin to decide what was best for them.
Why not leave it to the Ukrainians to sort it for themselves? Russia getting involved cannot be a good idea on any level for anyone in the Ukraine.
Nitpicking. Everyone knows why they were/are being charged and its not because of theft. Espionage implies that someone got access to info by illegal means, which never happened with Manning. If Russia or China did the exact same thing western media would be over themselves talking about how horrendous the situation is for horn blowers in those oh so undemocratic countries. Its not for this thread either way, the only reason its slightly relevant is that its a breach of democratic principles that is glossed over because its a western power that does it instead of big bad Russia.
It is because of theft and it's not glossed over at all. There are a lot of people within the United State that sympathize with Manning and Snowden.
Regardless, governments need to be able to keep secrets and the military needs to maintain the chain of command. While I generally oppose the sort of programs that Manning and Snowden were revealing, it's frankly not up to privates and midlevel contractors to make decisions about this stuff.
If it wasn't so serious you would have to laugh at the gaul // this refes to the kerry quote which i am struggling to paste in on my tab.
It basically says you cannot act like a 19th century empire invading countries with false pretext in the 21st century - I kid you not!
So you believe in following any order without question? I understand that is an illegal offence too so you could lose either way.
It basically says you cannot act like a 19th century empire invading countries with false pretext in the 21st century - I kid you not!
So you believe in following any order without question? I understand that is an illegal offence too so you could lose either way.
I thought it was whistle blowers but perhaps you know something I don't.
Who are the Ukrainians? All I can see is half of the country are ethnic Ukrainians and the other half of the country ethnic Russians.
Btw, the current president was toppled by the same right-wing mobs that have already shown their hatred for the Russians of Ukraina. This time it was obviously much better financed and organised. No big deal for the EU and the US - as long as you're 'pro-western' you might as well be an open fascist. Timoshenko and Klitchko have already publicly expressed their gratitude to the right-wing parties for their role in the 'revolution'. Such a fine bunch of pro-western liberals. And yet Putin gets compared to Hitler.
Situation on the ground.
Well, they were fine with the Saudi army entering Bahrain to crush the protests, and they were against toppling Morsi in Egypt when he tried to change the laws and millions took the street to protest and ask him to step down...
Politics, strange world.
"You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation."
Did he actually say that with a straight face?!
Did he actually say that with a straight face?!Absolutely unbelievable. I actually need to see him saying that.
There are extreme right wing nationalist groups and parties across most of eastern Europe and Russia can hardly make an issue of that since it too has just as many and Putin leads one of them. I don’t see how this action by the Russians is going to do anything to dispel anti Russian feelings, do you?
There are also Russian majority areas in many of the old soviet countries. What are you suggesting that we have Russia redraw all those borders as well?
It is far from clear to me that all the Russians in the Ukraine want Russian state troops on their streets, I didn’t see them vote for that either. Where are you going to draw these borders anyway, there will be majority Ukrainian areas trapped over the newly drawn borders wherever you try to draw them.
"You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation."
Oh the irony.. I also like all the US posters condemning Russia.. Of course the US would never invade a country on false charges!
Does any one know how much Russian gas and oil run through Ukraine and what are the other former soviet states saying about it all?
"You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation."
That is amazing. The US has always had different rules for themselves and different ones for the rest of the world. Its not their fault. When you have access power, you will misuse it. Its basic human tendency.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26267220
What exactly happened after Janukowic and the three opposition leaders declared truce on 19.02 and wanted to meet for further talks?
What exactly happened after Janukowic and the three opposition leaders declared truce on 19.02 and wanted to meet for further talks?
Sky news reporting on their live updates this morning that the Moscow stock exchange has already fallen by 10% in just one hour of trading. Also reports of a build up of army vehicles and personnel on the Russian side of the boarder opposite the Ukraine city of Kerch.
http://news.sky.com/story/1219892/live-updates-tensions-mount-in-ukraine-crisis
http://news.sky.com/story/1219892/live-updates-tensions-mount-in-ukraine-crisis
South - east part of the country is pro Russian. Crimea is already autonomous and de facto Russian.
Putin is a bad ass, nobody will feck with him
he probably thinks they are harbouring gays
G7 has apparently confirmed that they won't go in Russia for the G8 meeting.
Great point...
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I dont necessarily disagree. As I said above my main gripe is with is the massive difference in how actions performed by Russia or China are portrayed in Western media compared to similar actions performed by western powers.
Im realistic and these things will happen because governments want to protect the interests of their own nation and its own people first and foremost. Thats what all superpowers, the US, Russia and China do routinely, and thats reality that wont change. Put another superpower in Russia's shoes and they would all do the same in this scenario, I dont see how thats even debateable.
Crimea was a Russian region until the Ukrainian Kruschtchov let Ukraine have it, probably in an attempt to bind the two nations together by having Russian interests within Ukraine, and its been an autonomic region since, with a large degree of self-governing that has always been pro-russian.
There really shouldnt be as much hoopla as it is right now over Russia reinforcing their hold over a region thats been theirs in all but name for an eternity, with a majority population that is Russian, a popular opinion that is pro-Russian and strategic interest that Russia would never cease to an unrepresentatively pro-EU and anti-Russian government (they have 0 representatives from eastern or southern Ukraine, the pro-Russian regions) that formed over night.
If the west does something silly to escalate this situation then the responsibility is on them, not Russia. Let them have Crimea, a region that wants to be Russian, and move on.
there would be some irony if the uk are happy to let scotland become independent in their own doorstep if it is what the people want but would try and prevent crimea becoming part of russia thousands of miles away.
They should hold a refferendum with UN observers allowed and both sides agree to abide by the results
That did make me chuckle too, despite the seriousness of the situation."You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation."
"You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation."
He said it just for you Danny.