Must be uncomfortable dealing with a guy who is sponsoring the murder of your citizens and actively destabilizing your country.
Russia Discussion
- Thread starter iSparky
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Must be uncomfortable dealing with a guy who is sponsoring the murder of your citizens and actively destabilizing your country.
A fine picture of Slavic brotherhood....
If I had to guess the background to this mediation, it is (1) to Wonkashenka, don't export that revolution here and (2) to VVP, please leave my cashcow (Belaruskali) in my hands and tell your guys to back off.
Will be interesting to see what comes out of this.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...option-after-russia-violates-border-laws.html
It's the US's fault that other countries want to join NATO.
It's the US's fault that other countries want to join NATO.
Getting lost is a good one. I recall both American and British innocent civilians accidentally crossing borders, such as Iran, before today.
These lost soldiers, did they have a right by treaty to be lost in the Ukraine?
Must be uncomfortable dealing with a guy who is sponsoring the murder of your citizens and actively destabilizing your country.
The United States is at fault for what is happening in Ukraine right now.
The United States fueled anti-government sentiments, backed outright neo nazis to have the pro-Russian government ousted. As usual, the United States destabilises another country across the world. The US just loves to back murderous dictators (especially of the right-wing type: Pinochet, [EDIT] and the occasional left wing mass murderer like: Pol Pot etc.).
The current illegitimate coup d'etat government are consisting out of fascists, neo nazis and other right wing scum. All of which the US proudly supports.
I, for one, hope Russia gets the job done in Ukraine and protects the ethnic Russians living there. Crimea was a masterful move. All the Russians need to do now is annex much of Eastern Ukraine, which historically was a part of Russia anyway.
Last edited:
Thousands of Russian troops now in Ukraine. This is going to get a whole lot worse.
Oh, gasp, you caught a mistake I made. It still doesn't change anything to the point I make about the US and their atrocious foreign policy.
Surely a Wum.
A WUM, because I don't buy into the holy US vs evil Russia narrative?
Providing perspective from other angles to the current situation. Nothing I wrote down is untrue in that post. (Except the mistake about Pol Pot.)
You tell me what about my post is WUMish.
Alright then mate. Keep those stars & stripes glasses firmly on your nose.
Read the previous pages of the thread for some context. This is a Russian manufactured crisis intended to legitimize Putin domestically among right wing political constituents. Ukraine has every right to do business with the west or any nation with which it chooses without retaliatory invasions or economic reprisals. So far we have had nothing but lies and propaganda from Putin - regarding the threat of fascism, the invasion of Crimea, and now the invasion of Ukraine.
Must have forgotten to take that left turn at Albuquerque...
The only "good guys" in this whole situation, I think I can safely say, are the civilians who are suffering through this war.
Congratulations - that is the worst post I have ever read on RedCafe.
Yep, the U.S. is never than capable or efficient at installing puppet dictators, it's a give away.
If anything, the EU was a more basic driver of events than the US (who have generally been disinterested until recently as part of Obama's pivot to the Asia). But for a certain type of person who sees the world through a Manichean prism of USA bad, anyone opposed to USA good, that post makes perfect sense.
Actually the good guys here are the ones seeking to protect their country from a Russian invasion, so that would be all Ukrainian citizens.
Agreed. The U.S. certainly does it's share of dirt (as we say) but so has everyone else in this situation. The sort of view point you describe is only offered to trick people, imho.
It seems that's the case, as much as it seems incredulous for some reason to my mind.
I understood Crimea from a military standpoint, they have very important bases there, but they don't need eastern Ukraine to secure their borders.
The Ukrainian soldiers deserve great praise for facing off against Russia, to be sure.
The base issue in the end was just an excuse. Putin badly needed "a win" to keep his ultra-nationalist constituents happy as well as keep his own popularity high and the best way to accomplish it was to invade a country many Russians don't consider a legitimate country, which of course it is. So in the end, the Russian economy will gradually collapse as long as Putin keeps his foot on the accelerator on Ukraine.
The concept that one part of Country A used to be part of Country B so Country B has every right to try and take the area back is quite interesting. Historically it has some precedent, don't think we really need to go through them, I am sure most can figure it out. But the real question is where do we draw the line, how far back are we allowed to go to say it is okay for Country B to take part of Country A because that part used be part of Country B, 50, 100, 200 years ago? Do we go back 1000 years? 2000? more?
Looking at old maps of the world you find that if we use that logic there should be a lot more wars going on. And what about areas where three or more countries have historic claim to the region? Think of poor Poland as an example, pieces of it have been part of many of its neighbors at one time or the other.
Does being part of the same Empire at some point also count? Because that could get really messy then.
Point being it is really a crap justification for invading another country and trying to take its land, no matter who it is used by.
Looking at old maps of the world you find that if we use that logic there should be a lot more wars going on. And what about areas where three or more countries have historic claim to the region? Think of poor Poland as an example, pieces of it have been part of many of its neighbors at one time or the other.
Does being part of the same Empire at some point also count? Because that could get really messy then.
Point being it is really a crap justification for invading another country and trying to take its land, no matter who it is used by.
I agree but, without in any way wanting to justify Putin or deny that he is using the situation to deflect attention from the failing economy, Ukraine/Russia is incredibly complicated. I honestly can't think of an equivalent in Europe (at best possibly the 3 Nordic countries, Germany/Austria or Flanders and Holland). It is true that other countries ruled part or all of Ukraine (the Mongols, the Turks, the Poles, the Austrians) but most or all of their ethnic population left, whether voluntarily or due to ethnic cleansing. This is an issue that cuts across political inclinations in Russia - even the anti-regime, liberal, Western-leaning people that I know support the annexation of Crimea and have little sympathy for Ukrainian nationalists.
and I though communism was a thing of the past you should move to North Korea.
So much humour in that sentence, it almost warrants a laughing smiley.
I don't care for communism. Neither do I care for hyper capitalism which is the root cause for the depletion of our resources, endless wars fought across the world and a general massive divide between the rich and poor (as in the United States).
There are no communist countries anyway.
I'm quite content with the system we have in The Netherlands. I don't think it gets much better than how life is in this tiny country.
Sudetenland to Crimea. You're quite the paragon of virtue aren't you.
I think the native Americans might have a thing or two to say about invasions and annexation. Did you pack your bags already and left their native land?
You'll do well to deflect the topic of this thread to other examples rather than deal with the specifics of what is happening now.
I'm not deflecting. You bring up Sudetenland? What has that got to do with Crimea?
You perhaps think I'm of Russian descent given that I tend to bring a different perspective to the table. I'm actually not. And I'm also very wary of Putin and some of his policies / dealings.
But, I really do not like the US perspective on world affairs so I'll naturally go against it until they truly do something well. However, so far, the opposite is true for almost all world affairs that are currently going on.
Never thought you were Russian - a person of middle eastern origin living in Holland perhaps ?
Sudetenland is a valid comparison here as its been talked about in the media as well as among prominent European politicians. Putin has no legitimate business attempting to annex his neighbors just because Russian speakers live there. That is the fundamental issue here, whereas the Ukrainians have a legitimate, democratically elected government that is trying to reestablish a sense of order, if not for a not so covert insurgency sponsored by Putin.
Lots of bluster that will come to nothing from the UN, EU, US, etc. Sanctions have not been effective enough to dissuade Putin from invading. The UN's complete inability to act makes is almost as useful as the League of Nations. It will guarantee that there are NATO bases in Poland and the Baltics in the near future though. Unfortunately, Ukraine's military will likely be ineffective in repulsing or destroying the invading force.
I can't possibly fathom why Ukraine would want to be a member of NATO or the EU now. It's a bit like a battered wife trying to escape her abusive husband only for her husband to be angry at the shelter that offers her security.
Of course the Russian Defense Ministry says there are no Russians operating in Ukraine. Hopefully Ukraine will be able to provide some concrete evidence, like prisoners, soon.
I can't possibly fathom why Ukraine would want to be a member of NATO or the EU now. It's a bit like a battered wife trying to escape her abusive husband only for her husband to be angry at the shelter that offers her security.
Of course the Russian Defense Ministry says there are no Russians operating in Ukraine. Hopefully Ukraine will be able to provide some concrete evidence, like prisoners, soon.
The full sanctions haven't kicked in yet as there are still more that are being kept aside for now as a bargaining chip to keep Putin at arms length.
A full on sanctions regime that attacks Russian military hardware, economic ties, as well as the holy grail of Putin's personal assets, are still on the table, and lets face it, had no sanctions been levied, Ukraine would already be completely consumed into Russia by now.
Why, while unsure of Raul exact ancestory but surely if you can trace your ancesters back to being in the America's back 50 or 100 years or more even that qualifies you as being native to the America's doesn't?
Myself, I have to go back into the early 1800's to find an ancester not born in the America's, surely I qualify as being native. My ancestors are from Ireland, Scotland, Germany and the Netherlands, but I doubt very much the folks living there today would meet me and consider me Irish, Scottish, German or Dutch.
But at this point, can the sanctions be given time to work as the Russians run riot in Ukraine? They'll have to be enacted fairly quickly in response, which is something the EU will struggle with.
I don't think they will run riot in Ukraine because they are still denying they are in Ukraine (doing so would basically expose them and make them legally responsible), so they are incentivized to keep things somewhat covert and muted. Putin is probably angling for a political solution that allows him to save face domestically, as if he is perceived at having lost in eastern Ukraine, it will (together with Russia's impending recession) make him look like a complete fool and probably wipe out his ratings from Crimea and Sochi. So he is using the incursions into Ukraine as a means to buy him leverage in negotiating a solution that makes him look like he didn't fail. The question is whether he can pull it off while at the same time not allow western sanctions damage Russia's economy to a point where it implodes.
Sanctions (diplomatic or economic) always need time to work with no guarantee they will. Seldom will there be some sanction so crippling that it instantly changes the actions of those it was targeted against. In the mean time yes the violence in the Ukraine continues and people lose their lives, many of them innocent bystanders.
I am not sure there is a quick way to bring about an end to this situation. Even if say the West began a direct military intervention, which none of us here wants, that will not end the bloodshed quickly and would actually make it worse.
They've been fairly brazen in the last few days with actual troops and tanks being sent in in uniform/formation and put the Ukrainians on the back foot at least for now. If they can establish a foothold in some of the cities, they'll be difficult to get out. What can Putin achieve in a settlement that Ukraine is likely to give? Anything short of complete withdrawal and cessation of meddling won't fly. There's little to no incentive for Ukraine to believe Russia after its violation of their agreement on Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons. Putin has essentially shoved Ukraine into the arms of the EU and NATO for security. That will only further inflame their relations.
Overall though, the sanctions implemented have affected the Russian economy but very little the actions of Putin and his regime. Unless there are very serious economic consequences for the public, Putin will only be like a Republican governor/politician thumbing his nose at Obama to the Russian public. The oligarchs/kleptocrats in Russia are beholden to Putin and know that he'll take everything they have if they defy him, as with Berezovsky, Khodorkovsky, etc. All of them revolting might do it, but they aren't likely to collude to do that.
Sounds like Russia has launched a full on invasion of Ukraine today.