Russia Discussion

Western invasion of "Russia" predates 1812, by a little bit. Russia as a political entity didn't exist, but the culture extends back. The Teutonic Order famously invaded "Russia", along with Lithuania, Poland, the PLC, Sweden.

Everyone in Europe has been invaded at one point or another, but "Russia" has never really been apart of Europe, not really. It's like in grade school, "Russia" historically has been the kid it is socially acceptable to pick on. However it goes beyond that, Russia in the last few centuries has suffered from these invasions like no other country in history has.

I do not subscribe to the idea that Russia really played into starting WW1. I support the idea that Germany hijacked the Austro-Hungarian war as a way to pick a fight with Russia while Germany was still he most dominant European land power. Basically it was a way for Germany to knock Russia down which was on course to surpass them at the dominant European power.

In anycase, the losses they took in the 19th century invasions, and then the 20 century invasions are incomprehensible. They are unreal numbers. I'd challenge you to show me any country on Earth that would sit back after being invaded twice in a century to the tune of tens of millions of dead and not take a pro-active stance to creating buffers.

It's wrong, but it's easy for us to cast judgement. I can also totally understand why this would radicalize their foreign policy.

Not sure how anyone can deny any of the "great powers" role in starting WW1, they all built themselves into their corners, maneuvering for the chance to take advantage of any situation that popped up to go to war in Europe and hopefully come out of it in a more powerful position. They entered the war willingly, launching their armies into Germany and Austria-Hungary in support of their Serbian, French and English allies. Any finger pointing for their losses in WW1 simply leaves them (like the other great powers) with 4 fingers pointed back at themselves.

When we move onto the pre-WW2 years we see the Soviet Union already looking to build its Empire in Eastern Europe, even being willing to work with Hitler to defeat and carve up Poland. Not saying they are to blame for WW2, but that even prior to WW2 they were looking to pull as much of Eastern Europe under their rule as they could. Which leads one to question the whole "they needed a buffer from invasion" story line, it just doesn't hold up like any of the other myths nations make up to try and justify their taking over other countries (ie the US blaming Iraq for a role in 9-11 and claiming they still had or were still developing WMD's).
 
Western invasion of "Russia" predates 1812, by a little bit. Russia as a political entity didn't exist, but the culture extends back. The Teutonic Order famously invaded "Russia", along with Lithuania, Poland, the PLC, Sweden.

Everyone in Europe has been invaded at one point or another, but "Russia" has never really been apart of Europe, not really. It's like in grade school, "Russia" historically has been the kid it is socially acceptable to pick on. However it goes beyond that, Russia in the last few centuries has suffered from these invasions like no other country in history has.

I do not subscribe to the idea that Russia really played into starting WW1. I support the idea that Germany hijacked the Austro-Hungarian war as a way to pick a fight with Russia while Germany was still he most dominant European land power. Basically it was a way for Germany to knock Russia down which was on course to surpass them at the dominant European power.

In anycase, the losses they took in the 19th century invasions, and then the 20 century invasions are incomprehensible. They are unreal numbers. I'd challenge you to show me any country on Earth that would sit back after being invaded twice in a century to the tune of tens of millions of dead and not take a pro-active stance to creating buffers.

It's wrong, but it's easy for us to cast judgement. I can also totally understand why this would radicalize their foreign policy.

Russia was a paper bear (tiger) prior to WWI and by no means on course to surpass Germany as the dominant power in Europe. There was a perception that Russia was very powerful, thanks to its size, militarily and politically, but it quickly demonstrated its major failings early on in the war. The Romanov dynasty and regime were impressively incompetent, even when compared to the other incompetent leaders of Germany, France, and the UK. Russia's only strength was its size and population. Since it had not industrialized on a large scale, it couldn't compete economically with the other three great powers.

As for the losses they took in WWI and WWII, a large proportion of those losses are self-inflicted whether deliberate or accidental. Russia got its ass handed to it in WWI because of the downright terrible state of the military and leadership. The same goes for the first few years of WWII, largely as a result of Stalin killing or otherwise eliminating all of the military leadership. The nature of the war on the Eastern Front was very different from that on the West. The Germans and Russians treated each other like animals. Stalin treated his own military and population as completely expendable. The barbarity by both sides in the East was shocking. Fortunately for the Soviets, they were on the winning side against the Nazis so their atrocities don't get as much attention. They were doing literally the same thing that Germany was prior to Barbarossa.
 
Russia was a paper bear (tiger) prior to WWI and by no means on course to surpass Germany as the dominant power in Europe. There was a perception that Russia was very powerful, thanks to its size, militarily and politically, but it quickly demonstrated its major failings early on in the war. The Romanov dynasty and regime were impressively incompetent, even when compared to the other incompetent leaders of Germany, France, and the UK. Russia's only strength was its size and population. Since it had not industrialized on a large scale, it couldn't compete economically with the other three great powers.

As for the losses they took in WWI and WWII, a large proportion of those losses are self-inflicted whether deliberate or accidental. Russia got its ass handed to it in WWI because of the downright terrible state of the military and leadership. The same goes for the first few years of WWII, largely as a result of Stalin killing or otherwise eliminating all of the military leadership. The nature of the war on the Eastern Front was very different from that on the West. The Germans and Russians treated each other like animals. Stalin treated his own military and population as completely expendable. The barbarity by both sides in the East was shocking. Fortunately for the Soviets, they were on the winning side against the Nazis so their atrocities don't get as much attention. They were doing literally the same thing that Germany was prior to Barbarossa.

Whether or not Russia was going to surpass Germany is irrelevant to the perception that Germany had of Russia. Russia was a massive country with a massive population that was on the verge of industrializing. The perception in Germany was that Russia was sooner or later going to unseat them as the dominant continental power. "Europe's Last Summer" is the book that posits this thesis. That WW1 was two wars, the Serbian/AH war and the German/Russian war. Germany didn't want to avoid war, it WANTED the war. Every other actor was hoping to avoid it. It is, imo the best argument regarding the start of WW1, it is well supported and well received. In a perverse way, Germany was also itching to implement Moltke the Younger's plan which is colloquially know as the Schlieffen Plan.

I don't really need a lecture on the Eastern Front, I'm somewhat versed in it. I will however correct you. The losses the Soviets took in the first few years of the war, largely occurred in the first 3 to 4 months of the war. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 million men were irrevocably lost. Contrary to popular belief, it wasn't due to the purges (though that contributed). It was due to the fact that the USSR was significantly outnumbered on the front, and they were taken almost completely by surprise.

You're right. The Eastern Front was unlike the Western Front, so to apply the same expectations on morality and conduct is strange. From the very beginning it was clear to the Soviets that they were facing an existential war. The brutality was fundamental. Stalin was absolutely a monster, and he absolutely did what was necessary to win the war. The manner that Stalin fought the war, was ice cold and completely calculated. I would also appreciate you to provide exact instances in which Stalin needlessly threw away the lives of his soldiers and population during WW2. I think you will find you won't be able to. From almost day one, the Soviet methodology was to ruthlessly counter attack the Germans at every and any opportunity. In the process they took horrific losses, but they also inflicted horrific losses. Germany was done by December 1941. The war was over, Germany was already bleeding white. For an example Großdeutschland, which at the time was a Motorized Rifle Regiment, which began the invasion with an actual strength of 6,000 men, was disbanded and reformed as a single under-strength rifle battalion by the end of the Soviet Winter counter offensives in December. That is just a couple hundred men, from 6,000.

The USSR fought in a manner that it knew it could fight in and win the war. They fought in an attrition manner because they had to. Germany took losses it couldn't afford. The USSR took losses it could afford. By January 1942, Germany knew it had lost the war. Paraphrasing a high ranking German staff officer (I forget who specifically), he said basically "We've lost the ability to win the war by military means".

Shifting the blame of Russia/USSR's military losses on itself, is akin to blaming a woman who was raped for looking alluring. Russia did not initiate either war, and the defense she put up was the best it could do at those times. Military losses in defense of your country when you are the defender are never your fault. I shudder to think what would have happened in Eastern Europe without an individual like Stalin running things. Imagine for a moment if Stalin was no running the USSR, someone perhaps more rational. Imagine if the Soviet Union surrendered after it lost 5 million men in 3-4 months. Imagine the size and scope of the holocaust. Imagine the political landscape of Europe. No USSR in the war = No allied landings anywhere = no allied liberation of Western Europe. Without the Soviet Union staying in the war after getting so completely obliterated in the opening months, there is no Allied invasion anywhere in Europe. The death toll in Labour Camps/Death Camps wouldn't have been a little over 10 million, it would have been who knows how high it would have been.

Returning to Ukraine, your point about "Fortunately, they were on the winning side" is both poignant and ironic. The narrative shifted towards the USSR as soon as they were deemed to be the enemy. During the war, the opinion of Stalin and the USSR was glowing, both Churchill and Roosevelt had what you could call "broners" for him. The darkside of Stalin and the USSR was glossed over, they were carrying us to victory in Europe afterall. As soon as they were the enemy, we got the complete opposite. The darkside was emphasized at the expense of everything else. The fact that the USSR defeated Germany nearly single handed was ignored. The roll of the USSR in winning the war was downplayed completely to the extent that many people still to this day believe that the UK and the US were the single biggest reason for Germany's defeat. That the Battle of Britain was the defining moment, and that without Lend Lease and Strategic Bombing the USSR surely would have fallen!

In Ukraine it is more of the same, Russia is now "bad", and we don't get the whole story. It is completely ignored in Western media that the coup which overthrew the previous government was completely illegal. It violated Ukraine's own constitution. Parliament threw him out "officially" but it did so without actually abiding by their own constitution. It would be nice to have some balance in the discussion. It would be nice for major media outlets to point out that the situation in Ukraine is not as simple as "tyrant overthrown and Russia is invading!" It is far more complicated than that. If Western Ukraine has the right to apparently illegally through out a President, then Eastern Ukraine has the right to do the same thing. If the West can fund money and weapons to the West, then Russia can to the East. Both sides are doing EXACTLY the same thing, but we hide our own shenanigans.
 
In Ukraine it is more of the same, Russia is now "bad", and we don't get the whole story. It is completely ignored in Western media that the coup which overthrew the previous government was completely illegal. It violated Ukraine's own constitution. Parliament threw him out "officially" but it did so without actually abiding by their own constitution. It would be nice to have some balance in the discussion. It would be nice for major media outlets to point out that the situation in Ukraine is not as simple as "tyrant overthrown and Russia is invading!" It is far more complicated than that. If Western Ukraine has the right to apparently illegally through out a President, then Eastern Ukraine has the right to do the same thing. If the West can fund money and weapons to the West, then Russia can to the East. Both sides are doing EXACTLY the same thing, but we hide our own shenanigans.

The situation in Ukraine has been more or less described accurately by the media. All these points about an illegal coup miss the fundamental point that Yanukovich was extremely corrupt and out of touch with his own public about the fundamental course on which to move the country; namely towards Europe and away from Russia. When it became clear that he was in Putin's back pocket, they took action. Also, the mandate of the Ukrainian revolution has since been codified through multiple elections in which the population have repeatedly reinforced their desire to move towards Europe, which is supported by the polling. You also seem to regularly omit the reality of why Russia is involved in Ukraine - its not because NATO is on its doorstep, but rather as a device for Putin to consolidate his grip on power after a decade and a half of corruption, malfeasance, and kleptocratic rule that could gradually erode his popularity and expose his practices to the Russian public. At the end of the day, the US and EU are spot on in their assessment of the matter, as are the media in how they have covered it. To play the relativist and suggest there are two sides to this would be tantamount to suggesting Putin's propaganda machine and its orgy state sponsored lies are in some way legitimate, when we all know that to not be the case - from the fascists are coming, Crimean tartars won't be marginalized, Russian troops aren't in Ukraine, or any other tall tales the Kremlin have spawned in the past year.
 
Whether or not Russia was going to surpass Germany is irrelevant to the perception that Germany had of Russia. Russia was a massive country with a massive population that was on the verge of industrializing. The perception in Germany was that Russia was sooner or later going to unseat them as the dominant continental power. "Europe's Last Summer" is the book that posits this thesis. That WW1 was two wars, the Serbian/AH war and the German/Russian war. Germany didn't want to avoid war, it WANTED the war. Every other actor was hoping to avoid it. It is, imo the best argument regarding the start of WW1, it is well supported and well received. In a perverse way, Germany was also itching to implement Moltke the Younger's plan which is colloquially know as the Schlieffen Plan.

I don't really need a lecture on the Eastern Front, I'm somewhat versed in it. I will however correct you. The losses the Soviets took in the first few years of the war, largely occurred in the first 3 to 4 months of the war. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 million men were irrevocably lost. Contrary to popular belief, it wasn't due to the purges (though that contributed). It was due to the fact that the USSR was significantly outnumbered on the front, and they were taken almost completely by surprise.

You're right. The Eastern Front was unlike the Western Front, so to apply the same expectations on morality and conduct is strange. From the very beginning it was clear to the Soviets that they were facing an existential war. The brutality was fundamental. Stalin was absolutely a monster, and he absolutely did what was necessary to win the war. The manner that Stalin fought the war, was ice cold and completely calculated. I would also appreciate you to provide exact instances in which Stalin needlessly threw away the lives of his soldiers and population during WW2. I think you will find you won't be able to. From almost day one, the Soviet methodology was to ruthlessly counter attack the Germans at every and any opportunity. In the process they took horrific losses, but they also inflicted horrific losses. Germany was done by December 1941. The war was over, Germany was already bleeding white. For an example Großdeutschland, which at the time was a Motorized Rifle Regiment, which began the invasion with an actual strength of 6,000 men, was disbanded and reformed as a single under-strength rifle battalion by the end of the Soviet Winter counter offensives in December. That is just a couple hundred men, from 6,000.

The USSR fought in a manner that it knew it could fight in and win the war. They fought in an attrition manner because they had to. Germany took losses it couldn't afford. The USSR took losses it could afford. By January 1942, Germany knew it had lost the war. Paraphrasing a high ranking German staff officer (I forget who specifically), he said basically "We've lost the ability to win the war by military means".

Shifting the blame of Russia/USSR's military losses on itself, is akin to blaming a woman who was raped for looking alluring. Russia did not initiate either war, and the defense she put up was the best it could do at those times. Military losses in defense of your country when you are the defender are never your fault. I shudder to think what would have happened in Eastern Europe without an individual like Stalin running things. Imagine for a moment if Stalin was no running the USSR, someone perhaps more rational. Imagine if the Soviet Union surrendered after it lost 5 million men in 3-4 months. Imagine the size and scope of the holocaust. Imagine the political landscape of Europe. No USSR in the war = No allied landings anywhere = no allied liberation of Western Europe. Without the Soviet Union staying in the war after getting so completely obliterated in the opening months, there is no Allied invasion anywhere in Europe. The death toll in Labour Camps/Death Camps wouldn't have been a little over 10 million, it would have been who knows how high it would have been.

Returning to Ukraine, your point about "Fortunately, they were on the winning side" is both poignant and ironic. The narrative shifted towards the USSR as soon as they were deemed to be the enemy. During the war, the opinion of Stalin and the USSR was glowing, both Churchill and Roosevelt had what you could call "broners" for him. The darkside of Stalin and the USSR was glossed over, they were carrying us to victory in Europe afterall. As soon as they were the enemy, we got the complete opposite. The darkside was emphasized at the expense of everything else. The fact that the USSR defeated Germany nearly single handed was ignored. The roll of the USSR in winning the war was downplayed completely to the extent that many people still to this day believe that the UK and the US were the single biggest reason for Germany's defeat. That the Battle of Britain was the defining moment, and that without Lend Lease and Strategic Bombing the USSR surely would have fallen!

In Ukraine it is more of the same, Russia is now "bad", and we don't get the whole story. It is completely ignored in Western media that the coup which overthrew the previous government was completely illegal. It violated Ukraine's own constitution. Parliament threw him out "officially" but it did so without actually abiding by their own constitution. It would be nice to have some balance in the discussion. It would be nice for major media outlets to point out that the situation in Ukraine is not as simple as "tyrant overthrown and Russia is invading!" It is far more complicated than that. If Western Ukraine has the right to apparently illegally through out a President, then Eastern Ukraine has the right to do the same thing. If the West can fund money and weapons to the West, then Russia can to the East. Both sides are doing EXACTLY the same thing, but we hide our own shenanigans.

There are numerous examples of how the policies he put into place created an environment where lives were needlessly wasted to avoid punishment for being incapable of doing something. During one of the spring offensives, I believe, a company of soldiers was ordered to take a position across a certain river. Needless to say they didn't have adequate equipment to build a pontoon bridge and the river was too strong, deep, and wide to ford with vehicles. So their commanding officer ordered the men from Siberia to ford the river knowing not one of them could swim. They all drowned because they knew that they would be executed or sent to the penal battalions (another instance of throwing away lives needlessly) as cannon fodder. The institution of penal battalions for reasonable actions, like tactical but unauthorized retreats, guaranteed significant loss of life. Then there's the chase to Berlin when the Soviets accepted losses in minefields rather than attempting to deal with them. There's a difference between acceptable, expected losses that offer some benefit, but the Red Army did many things that just wasted human lives for no reason or benefit.

As for the Soviets being surprised, they were told that Hitler was going to invade but Stalin refused to accept it as a possibility. The British had intelligence agents telling them the same thing that his own spy network was prior to Barbarossa. His failure to acknowledge the obvious and inevitable is the cause of the disorganized war effort in the opening months.

What I meant about the Soviets being glossed over was their pre-Barbarossa invasion and destruction of Eastern Europe. Finland, the Baltics, Poland, and Romania were all divided between the two in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. That hardly gets a mention, mostly because of Soviet denial for 50 years, but it's demonstrative of how the Soviets have avoided the shame of their actions before Barbarossa (expanding throughout Europe, Katyn, deporting over a million Poles to the East, the Winter War, general anti-bourgeois action). It would have been hard for the West to justify publicly working with a Soviet regime that had agreed with the Nazis to divide up Eastern Europe so this was left out of the narrative and largely still is.

Of course they were branded as the enemy after the German surrender. Churchill and FDR/Truman had very few illusions about the Soviet Union and Stalin. They were allies as a result of circumstance rather than any shared vision. It was literally "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" when the British and US governments began to work with the Soviets. Churchill hated Communists and the Soviet Union but realized that it was necessary to work with the Soviets to defeat Hitler. Germany was on Britain's doorstep. The Soviets were not. Churchill famously said, If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons." It was realpolitik.

Revolutions are by their very nature "illegal" under an existing government. Viktor Yanukovych had clearly broken the social contract in his use of violence against the protestors, embezzling billions of dollars from the country, and generally abusing his power to entrench himself. Being democratically elected does not automatically make him immune to redress. And in Western political thought, the right of revolution is pretty important at least in theory. When a government breaks, as it did with Yanukovych, it is the people's right to get rid of it.
 
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Western invasion of "Russia" predates 1812, by a little bit. Russia as a political entity didn't exist, but the culture extends back. The Teutonic Order famously invaded "Russia", along with Lithuania, Poland, the PLC, Sweden.

Everyone in Europe has been invaded at one point or another, but "Russia" has never really been apart of Europe, not really. It's like in grade school, "Russia" historically has been the kid it is socially acceptable to pick on. However it goes beyond that, Russia in the last few centuries has suffered from these invasions like no other country in history has.

I do not subscribe to the idea that Russia really played into starting WW1. I support the idea that Germany hijacked the Austro-Hungarian war as a way to pick a fight with Russia while Germany was still he most dominant European land power. Basically it was a way for Germany to knock Russia down which was on course to surpass them at the dominant European power.

In anycase, the losses they took in the 19th century invasions, and then the 20 century invasions are incomprehensible. They are unreal numbers. I'd challenge you to show me any country on Earth that would sit back after being invaded twice in a century to the tune of tens of millions of dead and not take a pro-active stance to creating buffers.

It's wrong, but it's easy for us to cast judgement. I can also totally understand why this would radicalize their foreign policy.

No way was Russia on course to surpass Germany as the dominant European power, (Actually neither was the dominant power in Europe anyway pre ww1) and they were nowhere near surpassing Germany in WW2 either. In WW2 large chunks of their army got huge amounts of assistance and aid from the Allies, and that's likely a massive reason why they were able to stop the Germans from beating them.

Back to topic, the Russians have backed themselves into a big corner, no ones is scared of them any more (Even Belerus) and their economy is absolute shambles, I don't see this ending to well for them.
 
UK summons Russian ambassador after 'dangerous' bombers disrupt civilian aircraft

The Russian move has been interpreted as "a significant escalation" because Vladimir Putin's aircraft usually stay further to the north

Typhoon_3044578b.jpg

Russia would seemingly risk a repeat of MH-17 by other means.
 
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'Maskirovka' is the Russian military strategy of deception, involving techniques to surprise and deceive the enemy. Lucy Ash looks back over its long history from repelling invading Mongols in the 14th Century, to its use to confound the Nazis in World War II, to the current conflict in Ukraine. Translated literally maskirovka means "a little masquerade", but it also points to strategic, operational, physical and tactical duplicity. When heavily-armed, mask-wearing gunmen - labelled the 'little green men' - took over government buildings in Crimea last year, was this a classic example of maskirovka in the 21st century? All nations use deception as a strategy in war, but Analysis asks whether any other nation has pursued guile as an instrument of policy so long and so ardently as Russia.

Listen online :: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b050674y
 
Fantastic piece dispelling a lot of the nonsense on fascism in Ukraine. The following line is most telling:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html

"The bottom line is this: Putin has transformed Russia into a fascist state. Ukraine ousted Yanukovych in order to avoid becoming fully authoritarian. The war Putin unleashed against Ukraine is his way of telling Ukraine that fascism and democracy are incompatible".
 
Fantastic piece dispelling a lot of the nonsense on fascism in Ukraine. The following line is most telling:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html

"The bottom line is this: Putin has transformed Russia into a fascist state. Ukraine ousted Yanukovych in order to avoid becoming fully authoritarian. The war Putin unleashed against Ukraine is his way of telling Ukraine that fascism and democracy are incompatible".

Nah, mate. Elections, no matter how corrupt and rigged, mean Russia and Yanukovych's Ukraine were democratic states.

Putin depends on the illusion of democracy to stay in power, but the Russian populace seems to tend towards authoritarianism regardless. If he presents Ukraine as fascist, it will revive memories of the Great Patriotic War and rally the people to the flag, while drawing attention away from his own consolidation of power within his person.
 
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Nice bold and increased font size.

here are a few quotes from the article

" Berezovets is inclined to credit Crimea's "Orwellian atmosphere" for some of that near-unanimity."

"GfK Ukraine's poll wasn't based on actual field work, which is understandable, since a Ukraine-based organization would have a tough time operating in today's Crimea, which is rife with Russian FSB secret police agents and ruled by a local government intent on keeping dissent to a minimum. "
 
Fantastic piece dispelling a lot of the nonsense on fascism in Ukraine. The following line is most telling:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html

"The bottom line is this: Putin has transformed Russia into a fascist state. Ukraine ousted Yanukovych in order to avoid becoming fully authoritarian. The war Putin unleashed against Ukraine is his way of telling Ukraine that fascism and democracy are incompatible".

More lies. "Ukraine ousted Yanukovych"? Explain what do you mean by Ukraine.

Another point I made in another thread yesterday: the fact that you support a violent overthrow of a democratically elected president is seriously disturbing. To then even go as far as to say Yanukovych was actually lucky not be lynched like Caucescu is just revolting.
 
More lies. "Ukraine ousted Yanukovych"? Explain what do you mean by Ukraine.

Another point I made in another thread yesterday: the fact that you support a violent overthrow of a democratically elected president is seriously disturbing. To then even go as far as to say Yanukovych was actually lucky not be lynched like Caucescu is just revolting.

Politicians entrusted with safeguarding the well being of their country's assets, who then proceed to embezzle billions from its citizens should expect no less. Yanukovich is extremely fortunate to have fled back to his mothership before his citizens could bring him to justice.
 
More lies. "Ukraine ousted Yanukovych"? Explain what do you mean by Ukraine.

Another point I made in another thread yesterday: the fact that you support a violent overthrow of a democratically elected president is seriously disturbing. To then even go as far as to say Yanukovych was actually lucky not be lynched like Caucescu is just revolting.

Typical US policy.
U.S. efforts to overthrow foreign governments leave the world less peaceful, less just and less hopeful.
 
Nice bold and increased font size.

here are a few quotes from the article

" Berezovets is inclined to credit Crimea's "Orwellian atmosphere" for some of that near-unanimity."

"GfK Ukraine's poll wasn't based on actual field work, which is understandable, since a Ukraine-based organization would have a tough time operating in today's Crimea, which is rife with Russian FSB secret police agents and ruled by a local government intent on keeping dissent to a minimum. "

The font wasn't intentional, I just copy/pasted the title from the actual page.

As for the FSB agents, I'm sure they're there, given the situation. I could have used dozens of articles with various facts demonstrating how little the West understands about the realities on the ground in Ukraine or in this case, Crimea. I picked this one because it was told from the point of view of a pro-Ukraine reporter and clearly pro-Ukrainian point of view, so I wouldn't be called out as being biased.

This article just like many others before, constantly tries to portray Russia and Russians in a negative light and couldn't help spouting the same tired bullshit like "the March 2014 referendum that Russia used as justification for Crimea's annexation was a half-hearted imitation of a ballot carried out in the sights of Russian guns." Yet even this drone, who never saw Crimea except on the map in his living room, cannot hide the obvious fact, that majority of the residents of the peninsula actually wanted to be part of Russia and are happy about the way things turned out.

Unless, of course, those 800 people that answered the phone to participate in the poll were all FSB agents.
 
More lies. "Ukraine ousted Yanukovych"? Explain what do you mean by Ukraine.

Another point I made in another thread yesterday: the fact that you support a violent overthrow of a democratically elected president is seriously disturbing. To then even go as far as to say Yanukovych was actually lucky not be lynched like Caucescu is just revolting.

I hear that part mentioned a lot. My question would be are you saying that if a president or political leader is democratically elected that means that the public must accept whatever they do until the next election? Or they should stay at home and hope the 'system' will take care of it if things get too bad in the meantime? What happens when the system is hopelessly corrupt?
 
I hear that part mentioned a lot. My question would be are you saying that if a president or political leader is democratically elected that means that the public must accept whatever they do until the next election? Or they should stay at home and hope the 'system' will take care of it if things get too bad in the meantime? What happens when the system is hopelessly corrupt?

Do you think the U.S. would have supported the ousting of Yanukovych had he signed the EU association agreement? Would he over night have become 'less corrupt'? The corruption argument, that Raoul gets hysterical about, is irrelevant in this entire conversation. The lie that Raoul wants to sell us and which only an idiot would believe is that the U.S. were somehow interested in supporting and establishing a 'true democracy' in Ukraine. The U.S. have in the past supported far more corrupt and oppressive regimes and have a track record of not giving a damn about corruption and human right abuses. Nuland ("fck the EU!") was discussing the options and who to pick and install as the future president of Ukraine. The truth is this is all about business and the U.S. will do whatever they want if it serves their interests.
 
Do you think the U.S. would have supported the ousting of Yanukovych had he signed the EU association agreement? Would he over night have become 'less corrupt'? The corruption argument, that Raoul gets hysterical about, is irrelevant in this entire conversation. The lie that Raoul wants to sell us and which only an idiot would believe is that the U.S. were somehow interested in supporting and establishing a 'true democracy' in Ukraine. The U.S. have in the past supported far more corrupt and oppressive regimes and have a track record of not giving a damn about corruption and human right abuses. Nuland ("fck the EU!") was discussing the options and who to pick and install as the future president of Ukraine. The truth is this is all about business and the U.S. will do whatever they want if it serves their interests.

Of course corruption is relevant. It explains why the 'overthrow of a democratically elected president' happened. This is not just US v Russia. Ukraine is what this is all about. The US haven't mastermind this whole thing. As far as I can tell from the pictures, the rioters in the west of Ukraine had tractors and sticks while those in the east have tanks and guns. Only one side is being massively supported by another country for it's own purposes.

I don't give a damn about the US but it's hardly the aggressor here.

You didn't answer any of my questions btw. You just brought up how bad the US is.
 
Of course corruption is relevant. It explains why the 'overthrow of a democratically elected president' happened. This is not just US v Russia. Ukraine is what this is all about. The US haven't mastermind this whole thing. As far as I can tell from the pictures, the rioters in the west of Ukraine had tractors and sticks while those in the east have tanks and guns. Only one side is being massively supported by another country for it's own purposes.

I don't give a damn about the US but it's hardly the aggressor here.

You didn't answer any of my questions btw. You just brought up how bad the US is.

That's what the political system is there for. The parliament, the supreme court, etc. I fail to see how chasing out the president and taking over the power (which half of the Ukrainian population does not support) contributes toward resolving anything. Has no one ever thought about the potential consequences of a violent overthrow? Obviously not. The U.S. constantly gets involved in the affairs of other countries and things just become worse than they were before.
 
That's what the political system is there for. The parliament, the supreme court, etc. I fail to see how chasing out the president and taking over the power (which half of the Ukrainian population does not support) contributes toward resolving anything. Has no one ever thought about the potential consequences of a violent overthrow? Obviously not. The U.S. constantly gets involved in the affairs of other countries and things just become worse than they were before.

Yes that is what the political system is there for but to operate the way it should it has to be mostly free of corruption (no system is perfect). That's why corruption is entirely relevant.

Yes I'm sure they did think of the consequences. I'm sure they also thought of the consequences of doing nothing.

But it wasn't the US who overthrew the president. Also it was Russia that gave their 'side' weapons and escalated this whole conflict. Russias interference is on an entirely different level to the Wests (which seems limited to sanctions and public criticism).
 
Hmmm still wondering what the end-game here is?
Putin wants E.Ukraine to just prove a point? Am I getting this right?
 
Hmmm still wondering what the end-game here is?
Putin wants E.Ukraine to just prove a point? Am I getting this right?

He wants Ukraine because it's in his 'sphere of influence'. He needs to maintain some control over Ukraine because it helps Russian prestige in his eyes. To lose control of a large country on their doorstep ruins the image of Russia as some kind of great power. 'Losing' Ukraine would be embarrassing to him. Basically he's being a really possessive ex boyfriend.

I'm not sure of the end game either. Either he wants to create some kind of frozen conflict that will stop Ukraine from joining NATO or he just wants some kind of win to deliver to the Russian public.
 
No, it's not a nuke. If so, I'd love to see Putin's fanboys explain how it was the Ukrainians. :lol:
 
Is this a nuke being detonated in Ukraine?



It's actually a chemical factory that was used by the rebels to store munitions. RT presented it as the Ukrainian Army blind-firing and hitting a chemical factory without knowing what it was. They also make sure to mention the Right Sector member who's in the Rada just because. I suppose every British news agency should mention Andrey Lugovoy about Russia and Putin.
 
It's actually a chemical factory that was used by the rebels to store munitions. RT presented it as the Ukrainian Army blind-firing and hitting a chemical factory without knowing what it was. They also make sure to mention the Right Sector member who's in the Rada just because. I suppose every British news agency should mention Andrey Lugovoy about Russia and Putin.

Had a weird conversation with a coworker about this incident this morning. he was quite certain is was a nuke despite at the time no major reliable news source reporting it as such. He thought for sure they were just covering it up. I explained that for FOX News at least, with the assumption it would have had to have been the Russians since the Ukrainians have no nukes, would have been gleefully reporting that the Russians had used a nuke. Every major Government in the world, would be in a frantic state trying to figure out what happened, why, who, etc etc that there would be no hiding it and therefore no way the news networks would not be all over reporting a nuke.

Found out towards the end of the conversation he was basing his assumptions on shit he heard from Alex Jones.
 
Had a weird conversation with a coworker about this incident this morning. he was quite certain is was a nuke despite at the time no major reliable news source reporting it as such. He thought for sure they were just covering it up. I explained that for FOX News at least, with the assumption it would have had to have been the Russians since the Ukrainians have no nukes, would have been gleefully reporting that the Russians had used a nuke. Every major Government in the world, would be in a frantic state trying to figure out what happened, why, who, etc etc that there would be no hiding it and therefore no way the news networks would not be all over reporting a nuke.

Found out towards the end of the conversation he was basing his assumptions on shit he heard from Alex Jones.


:lol: All explosions from bombs look like smaller nuclear detonations. If it were a nuke, we would probably be at war.

Here's a map of the seismic activity in the area for the past week. A nuclear explosion would cause some level of activity. The explosion in West, Texas in 2013 registered a 2.1.
http://goo.gl/pscpFR
 
:lol: All explosions from bombs look like smaller nuclear detonations. If it were a nuke, we would probably be at war.

Here's a map of the seismic activity in the area for the past week. A nuclear explosion would cause some level of activity. The explosion in West, Texas in 2013 registered a 2.1.
http://goo.gl/pscpFR


Not sure we would be at war right away. Would have been a flurry of diplomatic activity between the various governments of the world that is for sure and every new outlet would have been covering this story from the get go. Thankfully, it turned out as expected to be over-reaction by those who did not really know what they were looking at.

I
 
Not sure we would be at war right away. Would have been a flurry of diplomatic activity between the various governments of the world that is for sure and every new outlet would have been covering this story from the get go. Thankfully, it turned out as expected to be over-reaction by those who did not really know what they were looking at.

I

I can't remember or find what the US doctrine is on response to nuclear strikes on third party nations to clarify, but you're quite right that it would lead to much gnashing of teeth in Europe with little effect. The UN would do nothing because it is designed to be useless in the affairs of great powers.
 
I can't remember or find what the US doctrine is on response to nuclear strikes on third party nations to clarify, but you're quite right that it would lead to much gnashing of teeth in Europe with little effect. The UN would do nothing because it is designed to be useless in the affairs of great powers.

Probably going way off topic here, so best to either start a new thread to discuss nuclear doctrine or just move on.
 
I'm not sure how anybody confused that with a nuclear detonation, the resultant glare seems by far too dim and short in duration. Not that i am any sort of expert.

Were the rebels using the chemical factor as a type of shield for these munitions then?
 
I'm not sure how anybody confused that with a nuclear detonation, the resultant glare seems by far too dim and short in duration. Not that i am any sort of expert.

Were the rebels using the chemical factor as a type of shield for these munitions then?

MAybe or perhaps it just had some nice storage facilities, along with a nice road or rail system leading to and from it.
 
So, who actually believes that Putin will abide by any agreement that is made on Wednesday?
 
So, who actually believes that Putin will abide by any agreement that is made on Wednesday?

He won't because he is only interested in negotiations to buy himself more time to consolidate rebel gains in Donbass in the hope that he can eventually settle things on his own terms, have land bridge to Crimea, and develop a permanent platform within Ukrainian territory to agitate and foment further instability within Ukraine.

The stakes should be raised including sanctions on Gazprom and booting Russia from the Swift banking system.
 
So, who actually believes that Putin will abide by any agreement that is made on Wednesday?

I wouldn't have thought it likely. Until Putin believes that this gambit is more trouble that it is worth he'll keep on trying.

I was just reading that NATO are planning some military exercises in Georgia later this year, as well as the establishment of a training facility, so some attempts to shore up that front should Russia's gaze return there.
 
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