There really isn't a drastic difference to their squad depth and our own, in fact i don't think the drop in quality beyond the first 11 is much different
The Spurs thread | 2017-18 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned
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There really isn't a drastic difference to their squad depth and our own, in fact i don't think the drop in quality beyond the first 11 is much different
Are you not contradicting yourself within these two paragraphs? In terms of 1st xi, I don't think there's any disputing that Spurs are one of the best in the league - if it were the 90's and 1st xi's plus a mish-mash on the bench was status quo like it used to be, there's no reason why they shouldn't challenge for the title, as you say, but in the here and now, in the age of mega squads and player arms races, it's a very different story.
If they were only contesting on the domestic front, I think they would have little to say they shouldn't be right up there, but when you add in the CL variable, all of that goes to pot and the squad becomes a vital component in keeping everyone fresh whilst still being able to accrue points.
Apart from Son, who is of the level required to be a game-changing/contributing squaddie, you've listed: Lamela - who has only just come back from injury, and needs to be eased back into competitive football; Sissoko, who is a laughing stock*; Llorente, who would be a third of fourth choice back-up at a bigger club; and Dembele, who is an injured crock these days.
That is not a grouping that is going to do anything of note for Spurs in the absence of their top players.
*Sissoko, you can point out that they shouldn't have bought him in the first place, but the point here is that at bigger clubs, a punt like him is just put to pasture and others come in to fulfil the role until a replacement is purchased.
Our workarounds are on a completely different level to Spurs'. We might say they are not 'MUQ' but they are more than capable of doing a job and it's better to have them than not. To have the likes of Mata and Mkhitaryan twiddling thumbs on the bench because they are not to our liking is a luxury - or privilege - afforded to the big clubs. That we don't even allow them to play themselves into form, because we can make do without them, is also testament to our options.
We have the choice to do what we do, whereas for the likes of Spurs, everything is pretty much backs to the wall with little to no margin for error in purchases or fielding.
Covered above. In terms of their defensive unit as a squad - do you really think it's comparable to ours? We pretty much have 5 interchangeable CB's to choose between on any given matchday, and at that, we can select for specialist skills or drop whoever because they are out of form... can, or do, Spurs ever do that?
Our fullbacks are not to our liking because we're measuring ourselves against the best clubs in the world, which is the difference.
The squad element always becomes a factor once the CL is introduced - just as it was stated before a ball had been kicked that it would cause Chelsea bother as has proven to be the case.
To go for trophies, Spurs would have to prioritise, which would then be frowned upon. If he rested players in pursuit of the CL or FA Cup, there would be ridicule. If he rested players in the CL to focus on the league, there would be ridicule. I don't get the line of reasoning where he has to win trophies to prove himself if the above caveat is going to be ignored.
Whatever you think of him as a manager, to just throw out the factors that don't fit the narrative you want to have for him simply paints a non-objective picture.
All things should be considered equally and then thoughts formulated from there... if you want to be fair, of course.
I don't know what I should reply to that apart you either drastically underrate ours or overrate theirs.
Spurs have ascended beyond that of a football club held back by limited means, that seemingly unbreakable barrier was crossed long ago when Pochettino took charge of the club. Coupled with a chairman whose ambition is matched only by his greed, they have the ingredients on hand to win a league title. They now find themselves in a position where they are considered challengers in every sence of the word, so much so that your average United fan, or any fan of a top tier club for that matter, tends to look out for their results hoping that they lose.
I do agree that their CL campaign has interfered with their domestic ambitions. The squad they possess is not nearly deep enough to challenge on both fronts, yet Poch, perhaps showing his inexperience, insists on fielding a full strength team for every CL encounter. He wants to win the CL and he believes his team good enough to achieve that ambition, Levy believes it too. I'm not entirely convinced his players share the same confidence though.
A more pragmatic manager would have treated this seasons CL campaign as a learning curve, perhaps that is his mistake and ultimately what will cost Spurs dearly in the long run.
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There's no way that would be an acceptable avenue for them - treating this year's CL as a runout. That would be a disaster and hugely demoralising for the players as it essentially says to them that they are not good enough to mix it with the best. Player disharmony if these underpaid players were told that they were not going to play in the CL (on top of being underpaid) would make them question why they are even at the club when they could be getting thrice the wage and really savouring these nights far removed from anything they've known in club football.
Rubbing shoulders with the great teams might be par for the course for players at the elite clubs, but the up-comers, it's something special and probably something that can't help but reserve part of themselves for.
I think a Spurs, not in Europe, would be fully expected to challenge for the title, but with Europe included, it's just improbable that any side relying on so few players can expect to genuinely challenge for the league.
About others looking out for their results: are you sure that's because of them being seen as a genuine contender for the title or because of the banter that ensues whenever they have a bad result these days
I can't speak for everyone, but personally I look out for Spurs' results as I see them as an immediate threat to my clubs league ambitions, on the same level as Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and City. Banter be damned, we would be fools not to worry about Spurs both domestically and in Europe.
Problems with the squad? A few months ago Spurs were claiming the squad was sorted, they brought in numbers. Llorente to cover for Kane, Foyth/Sanchez for Wimmer, double on both wings etc. They are now talking about being unable to rest certain players and that they have to play every game, but guess what, the same applies to us! They can't rest Eriksen and Kane? Well, we never rest Pogba or Lukaku do we?
Defenders: Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Smalling and Lindelof vs. Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Sanchez and Foyth
Full-backs: Young, Darmian, Shaw, Blind, Valencia vs. Davies, Trippier, Aurier and Rose
Central midfield: Matic, Pogba, Fellaini, Herrera vs. Dier, Winks, Wanyama, Dembele
Attacking midfielders: Mata, Mkhitaryan, Lingard vs. Eriksen, Alli, Sissoko
Wingers: Martial, Rashford vs. Son, Lamela
Strikers: Lukaku, Zlatan vs. Kane, Llorente
Ok, it's very difficult to compare squads due to style and versatility - players like Mkhitaryan can play a few positions, but so can Sissoko. Alli is a forward basically, Eriksen an attacking midfielder, but sometimes they operate out wide to suit a certain formations. However, I think it is very futile to say that Spurs has a problem with their squad. United are famous for having a big squad, but they have almost the same numbers/options and also have a few versatile players. Injuries are difficult to argue against, but that is why you have a squad. We are well-equipped in central defense, but they certainly have two top options as well as Sanchez. Same goes for full-backs, they are supposedly the best in the country. In terms of numbers they are good in central midfield, but of course injuries have messed them up - but the same happened to Pogba and Fellaini. Dembele is out of shape/form, so is Herrera! If Wanyama, Dembele, Winks and Dier are all fit, they do not have a problem with their squad - the isolated problem here are injuries.
So I do not buy the "we don't have a squad"-card, it's simply not true. They have not played Son enough, he is brilliant and he scores goals. Llorente is rubbish, but even so he will not play much. What has happened is that teams know how to mark Alli (who just isn't a very good player this year) and take Eriksen out of the game. Stop Eriksen - you stop Tottenham. They have also lost their best full-back in Walker, who meant an incredible lot to this team last year, their options are not as good.
When leaving out the discussion of sheer quality, which is a matter of opinion among fans, there's not a huge gulf in squad size and options IMO. Another problem is that Alli, Eriksen and Kane have a free-pass every single week, which might keep them a bit bored... no competition, you play even if you're crap kind of thing. That goes for Lukaku and Pogba as well, but perhaps they are being kept on their toes by the manager.
Defenders: Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Smalling and Lindelof vs. Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Sanchez and Foyth
Full-backs: Young, Darmian, Shaw, Blind, Valencia vs. Davies, Trippier, Aurier and Rose
Central midfield: Matic, Pogba, Fellaini, Herrera vs. Dier, Winks, Wanyama, Dembele
Attacking midfielders: Mata, Mkhitaryan, Lingard vs. Eriksen, Alli, Sissoko
Wingers: Martial, Rashford vs. Son, Lamela
Strikers: Lukaku, Zlatan vs. Kane, Llorente
Ok, it's very difficult to compare squads due to style and versatility - players like Mkhitaryan can play a few positions, but so can Sissoko. Alli is a forward basically, Eriksen an attacking midfielder, but sometimes they operate out wide to suit a certain formations. However, I think it is very futile to say that Spurs has a problem with their squad. United are famous for having a big squad, but they have almost the same numbers/options and also have a few versatile players. Injuries are difficult to argue against, but that is why you have a squad. We are well-equipped in central defense, but they certainly have two top options as well as Sanchez. Same goes for full-backs, they are supposedly the best in the country. In terms of numbers they are good in central midfield, but of course injuries have messed them up - but the same happened to Pogba and Fellaini. Dembele is out of shape/form, so is Herrera! If Wanyama, Dembele, Winks and Dier are all fit, they do not have a problem with their squad - the isolated problem here are injuries.
So I do not buy the "we don't have a squad"-card, it's simply not true. They have not played Son enough, he is brilliant and he scores goals. Llorente is rubbish, but even so he will not play much. What has happened is that teams know how to mark Alli (who just isn't a very good player this year) and take Eriksen out of the game. Stop Eriksen - you stop Tottenham. They have also lost their best full-back in Walker, who meant an incredible lot to this team last year, their options are not as good.
When leaving out the discussion of sheer quality, which is a matter of opinion among fans, there's not a huge gulf in squad size and options IMO. Another problem is that Alli, Eriksen and Kane have a free-pass every single week, which might keep them a bit bored... no competition, you play even if you're crap kind of thing. That goes for Lukaku and Pogba as well, but perhaps they are being kept on their toes by the manager.
It is always going to be hard to win a game when one misses so many easy chances.
Walker last summer
Rose this summer
Ali the summer after
Eriksen & Kane ?
Slowly but surely their squad is going to be broken up
Rose this summer
Ali the summer after
Eriksen & Kane ?
Slowly but surely their squad is going to be broken up
Using the squad as an excuse doesn't work because there are several managers that have accomplished more with the same quality of squads. Just because a manager plays young players and 'positive' football (he really doesnt play positive football anymore than most managers but lets say he does) doesn't mean he is a manager capable of managing top clubs.
Jardim, Simeone, Tuchel, Klopp have all had the excuse of managing a smaller club than their rivals with less money. They all have at least 1 trophy, have had distinguished performances in the CL. Most people wouldnt touch Klopp with a barge pole but he is a far more distinguished manager than Pochettino.
Jardim, Simeone, Tuchel, Klopp have all had the excuse of managing a smaller club than their rivals with less money. They all have at least 1 trophy, have had distinguished performances in the CL. Most people wouldnt touch Klopp with a barge pole but he is a far more distinguished manager than Pochettino.
We managed to win a game yesterday and we wasted a few good ones.
I think if Spurs win nothing this season then it their top players will push hard to leave especially considering the crap wage they are on compared to the other top PL teams, and if the players are sold then Poch will also leave for somewhere like PSG or Real imo
And to think Pocho has snubbed the domestic cup to focus on the league. He will never win anything.
Name a team in England that have put up a solid front in the CL and won the league, or even come close with a small/weak squad.
Your point works on some levels, but the PL is gruelling, with no winter break - actually, it intensifies further going into the festive period, which is unique to the league and where many sides fall apart as their first xi desperately needs rotation and an effective set of squaddies.
Just because Spurs have been riding high, it does not make all things equal.
Before this season started, most Spurs-fans expected to win the league or at least compete for it. Not that it paints the whole picture, but I read somewhere that the poll on their biggest forum had something like 60% expecting 1st, almost everyone else on 2nd or 3rd - basically nobody expecting 4th or worse. A fan forum is of course not very objective, especially for a club on the up and when you haven't won anything in decades - but still it gives an indication. Way too much emphasis is put on the new stadium, which first of all isn't that big compared to other stadiums around Europe, as certainly won't be any different. Being able to open a bakery and host NFL-games will matter exactly nothing for the manager and the players. Having the biggest single-tier stadium? Matters absolutely nothing. The grass is green and the goals are the same.
Imagine this scenario where Spurs finishes 5th (which is very realistic), having to play Europa League next year instead of the Champions League. Without Champions League, nobody is going to sign for Spurs and they have to go after new Sissoko's - they are not even in the same league as Liverpool when it comes to attracting players, and no new stadium is going to fix that. Old Trafford and Anfield will still have twice the attraction compared to some new semi-big stadium outside central London, and City, Arsenal and soon Chelsea will offer the same. Every club has got great training facilities, the players don't care about that either. If Spurs find themselves outside the top four, things are going to be very messy when they move into their new home, where they of course are going to struggle in the beginning, just like every other club moving grounds. Slowly but surely, key players are going to let their contracts wind down before they make their agents find a move to a bigger and better club.
Imagine this scenario where Spurs finishes 5th (which is very realistic), having to play Europa League next year instead of the Champions League. Without Champions League, nobody is going to sign for Spurs and they have to go after new Sissoko's - they are not even in the same league as Liverpool when it comes to attracting players, and no new stadium is going to fix that. Old Trafford and Anfield will still have twice the attraction compared to some new semi-big stadium outside central London, and City, Arsenal and soon Chelsea will offer the same. Every club has got great training facilities, the players don't care about that either. If Spurs find themselves outside the top four, things are going to be very messy when they move into their new home, where they of course are going to struggle in the beginning, just like every other club moving grounds. Slowly but surely, key players are going to let their contracts wind down before they make their agents find a move to a bigger and better club.
To be fair, their net transfer spend was plus 10 million. 4 in and 5 out. Just to be honest, it appears from the outside looking in that Levy isn't backing him that much financially as there appears a trade off of selling to buy. each season the number of outgoings and incoming seem similar so its difficult to add to the squad depth. Chelsea had similar, in that although they spent a lot in incomings, they virtually swapped them for incoming players and thus recouped the same and not bolstered their squad. I actually have a Chelsea fan at work complaining about this!
I feel the expectation has been raised by over achievement recently. A newspaper had an article about it recently. In terms of excess cash, squad depth etc I wouldn't be surprised to see them Arsenal and Liverpool competing neck and neck for 4th, whilst us, City and Chelsea challenge for the title. Thats my expectation
Leicester won the League! In that season Tottenham got knocked out of the league cup again early on in the season and got knocked out of other competitions with 2 months to go in the season. Then next season Leicester got further in the Champions league than Spurs could. Ranieri achieved more with a team than Pochettino with worse players.
Pochettino has shown several times his lack of game management in high pressure situations. Winning La Liga with atletico madrid is far more difficult than winning the PL with tottenham, if you think its unfair in the PL then you have no idea how much of an advantage Madrid and Barca have in that league.
The PL had been on a downward spiral of quality for several years, only now with an influx of top managers is the quality improving. Silverware was there for the taking when SAF retired, all you had to do was be the best of a bad bunch. Spurs don't even have to win the league, just show some sort of winning mentality and win a cup or two, if a manager cannot instill the right mentality into the team and guide them through high pressure situations then he is not a top manager.
Poch got knocked out by Gent in the EL at the first step of the knockout stages with a full strength squad. He has failed in cup competitions, including an embarrassing capitulation against West Ham this season. He came up short in a season where all the big boys were crap and lost the title to Leicester. His side again got done by Chelsea in the FA Cup semis though Hazard and Costa didn't start.
He's a good manager, but he needs to win a trophy. That can't just be explained away by squad size in analyzing individual results at critical stages. The EL last year was particularly embarrassing as they went out against a clearly inferior team and were joint favorites with United to win the competition at that point.
I still fancy them to get into the top 4. They're going through a poor run of form, but I believe they'll come good and I do think Poch, though not the messiah many have built him into, is a quality manager, particularly in grinding out results in a league campaign.
He's a good manager, but he needs to win a trophy. That can't just be explained away by squad size in analyzing individual results at critical stages. The EL last year was particularly embarrassing as they went out against a clearly inferior team and were joint favorites with United to win the competition at that point.
I still fancy them to get into the top 4. They're going through a poor run of form, but I believe they'll come good and I do think Poch, though not the messiah many have built him into, is a quality manager, particularly in grinding out results in a league campaign.
I think you are underestimating our attack and defence, but its not your fault, most people think the same. We are 3 players away from being frightning rw, rb and lb, the fullbacks only because of the age of the current. This season we're only a one quality rw away from the top.
Leicester performed so well in league precisely because they were able to rest due to having no European anchor around their neck. They were not challengers for the league the season they were in the CL, furthermore, they are a complete anomaly so small in sample size that they barely register in terms of the status quo for what's needed to compete on multiple fronts from August through to May.
Atletico, and their feats in La Liga, just don't have anything to do with Spurs - different level of team and squad (their first xi was one of the best in the world at the time with genuine world class players throughout and their bench was effective) Atletico had a side that not a single team fancied facing from Barcelona to Real to Bayern. It wasn't 'could they?' it was 'look out, they're coming.' Nobody has that kind of regard for Spurs, even at their very best, it's not a scratch on that Atletico side.
You can't tell me with a straight face that when SAF retired, you thought: 'yep, it Spurs' who are going to clean up' or even be a threat - the saying at that time was 'c'mon lads, it's Spurs.' coined by our manager because they were a non-entity when it came to talking about anything serious. That they are even being put in the frame as a team who should be winning the league is testament to the work that has gone on there.
'just win a cup or two' do you know how hard that is to do when you've got every other team going for the same thing? The cups are highly treasured once more after a period of being looked down upon. They are not something any one team can set out and expect to win and that goes for us, City, Chelsea or whoever else.
You have to at least correlate their emergence as a perennial CL qualifier with where their team is at and the age of the players. SAF retired in 2013: Delli-Ali was still at Milton Keynes, Kane was a footnote somewhere and you can go through the team that has rose to prominence in the here and now doing the same thing... Pochettino didn't even get there until 2015. I don't know at which point you think they should have acquired these cups over teams who wanted them just as much as they did? Not once have Spurs been the best team in the land, so to expect them to win trophies over those that have been makes no sense.
Apparently, you have to play your best players just because you are in a competition? Isn't Pochettino supposed to be a promoter of youth? Why not play the kids like Wenger does in the Europa League and League Cup?
Didn't Pochettino say that the league cup is unimportant and that he would take Spurs' 'success' over Arsenal's recent FA cup wins? No-one gave Arsenal a chance against City and Chelsea in the FA cup but Wenger showed his quality. Arsenal can't spend as much money as those clubs, Arsenal had to spend several years managing their budget when moving to the emirates yet they still performed well in the league and Europe. Wenger is twice the manager Pochettino is, yet everyone ridicules him.
Its gotten to a point where you are making excuses that the man himself would not even make. Just to hold up this image you have of him. You do not need to go through the eye of a needle to win silverware, all you need is some momentum, motivation and a decent team. Worse teams have won silverware than that Spurs team, and a top manager should at least challenge with quality players like Kane, Alli, Eriksen, Son, Dembele, Vertonghen.
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Well they did not, so then you don't want the game.
And yet Arsenal's squad budget pisses all over Spurs'.
I don't know why pointing out logical things are seen as excuses. You make a point - I counter it, you throw out my counter-point as an 'excuse.'
There is a status quo and an order to things for a reason, but that's getting tossed aside because, well, 'Pochettino.' As if that makes it any less so.
Winners of the FA Cup since 2010:
2017 Arsenal FC
2016 Manchester United
2015 Arsenal FC
2014 Arsenal FC
2013 Wigan Athletic
2012 Chelsea FC
2011 Manchester City
2010 Chelsea FC
Winners of League Cup since 2010:
2017 Manchester United
2016 Manchester City
2015 Chelsea FC
2014 Manchester City
2013 Swansea City
2012 Liverpool FC
2011 Birmingham City
2010 Manchester United
Since Pochettino arrived at Spurs only Chelsea, City and United have won the League Cup - the three biggest squads in England who so happen to have a set of players equipped to go far in the competition without it disrupting their season - this at a time when most everybody else is trying to conserve their players due to a tiring winter schedule and going into the gruelling run-in (if they're still in Europe.)
And only Arsenal *2 and United have won the FA Cup. I don't think it's a coincidence that those with bigger fish to fry haven't featured because they are prioritising, as is the sane thing to do if you genuinely have a chance at the league or CL.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the winners of the FA Cup of late haven't done well in the league, either. Last season, Chelsea, the league winners, had no Europe to bother themselves with, and could then make a full go of it in both the league and FA Cup.
What that essentially comes down to is that to challenge for these cups you think Spurs should be picking up, they would have to put them above the league, which is an asinine thing to do whilst the pot for CL qualification is so disparate and the league is their #1 priority on the domestic front.
Good team, but City are much better. Especially in terms of squad depth.
I would say that Spurs and United’s first XI are pretty similar in quality. Same as squads really.
The overrating of our own players and squad, and underrating of others by some on here is mind blowing.
Half of the United fans on here would say Messi was average if he played for, say, Liverpool.
I would say that Spurs and United’s first XI are pretty similar in quality. Same as squads really.
The overrating of our own players and squad, and underrating of others by some on here is mind blowing.
Half of the United fans on here would say Messi was average if he played for, say, Liverpool.
7th. Wow it’s gone south and it’s gone south fast.
"Power shift" 
But Poch hasn’t spent the same money as the teams above them, he is the best manager in the league etc etc7th
Thought it would be between Spurs and Arsenal for top 4 this season. Arsenal look like they will be getting it, but still 5 clubs involved that could fall outside top 4 and get within.
Don't let this slip down to page 2 lads and lasses!
Seriously though, what's going wrong at Spurs @GlastonSpur ?
Seriously though, what's going wrong at Spurs @GlastonSpur ?
They are where you would expect them to be when top teams are playing close to their potential. Last two seasons we had several top clubs like United, Chelsea and Arsenal have an underwhelming season or two, which opened up possibility of Spurs getting up there. They finished 3rd in 2015-16 but had only 70 points, they are on course for similar points tally this season too. They had 86 points last season but I don't think they are going to repeat that anytime soon.
They will be in the mix for top 4, only 4 points behind 4th now which is nothing but they are also behind Burnley which suggests power shift in the mid-table. Could Burnley be the new Spurs?
They will be in the mix for top 4, only 4 points behind 4th now which is nothing but they are also behind Burnley which suggests power shift in the mid-table. Could Burnley be the new Spurs?
You can bet on Arsenal not losing out on CL twice in a row. Therefore I see Spurs falling out of top 4.
Too many players out of form and injuries not allowing a steady starting line up, its a blip but need to turn things round ASAP. Not to concerned just yet as we had the same shitty form for a run of games last season.
I think they will make top 4. Hopefully a good run in the CL too.
Sliding a bit, aren't they. I still think they'll get top 4, though.
Who misses out then? If Arsenal keep resting players in Europa, they'll comfortably finish 4th I reckon. United or Chelsea?
Maybe Chelsea but Conte is very good with domestic form so it's likely to be Spurs. Adding to that, you can bet Wenger doesn't lose out on top 4 twice in a row.
City, united, Chelsea for sure. It's the battle for the last place I feel. I might not have been that confident about us last season but this season we will definitely make top four. If we are lucky enough then a challenge for the league is always on.
Well, it's going right in the CL so far, but a bit of blip in the Prem to be sure.
Injuries are part of it - Alderweireld is a big miss, Kane doesn't look to be back yet to his full fitness and Wanyama's been out for a long while. The latter wouldn't matter that much, except Dier has had to drop into the back 3 and Winks has been out for a few games ... which means a weaker CM.
But the main problem for us - the Leicester game apart - comes from teams that sit back and pack their defence (which is the majority who come to Wembley) .... we've been unable to find sufficient ways to unpick them, so we sometimes over-commit to attack in desperation and end up conceding.
So, Spuds, what's going on?
6th in the table...and we know from our own recent seasons, that 6th is NOT a position that Spurs fans on here view as an acceptable position in the table.
Level with Burnley and 4 points off Top 4... are the wheels coming off the much hyped 'Levy machine', or is this just a mere wobble that will be corrected swiftly?
6th in the table...and we know from our own recent seasons, that 6th is NOT a position that Spurs fans on here view as an acceptable position in the table.
Level with Burnley and 4 points off Top 4... are the wheels coming off the much hyped 'Levy machine', or is this just a mere wobble that will be corrected swiftly?
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