They don't act "black", its just white kids that embrace black culture.
UK Riots (with the exception of Manchester which has its own thread)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
David Starkey, so racistAre we coming up with punishments...
Doing my best Steven Colbert impression here.
I've got a few suggestions:
1. If you've been caught stealing a flatscreen ~ An ankle bracelet will send a shock through the person's system so hard it makes them go temporarily blind if they get within 30 meters of a television. 3 month sentence
2. For theft of clothing ~ All of the theif's clothes are removed from their home. It will be manditory to wear the footy kit that would most likely get their asses kicked in any particular neighborhood. 1 week sentence... or until the person reaches critical care in the hospital.
3. Theft of food ~ Persons found guilty of this crime will have their stomachs sewn up to the size of a plum. That takes care of the hunger pains.
4. Arson.... struggled with this one... don't know what to do with these twisted morons.
Doing my best Steven Colbert impression here.
I've got a few suggestions:
1. If you've been caught stealing a flatscreen ~ An ankle bracelet will send a shock through the person's system so hard it makes them go temporarily blind if they get within 30 meters of a television. 3 month sentence
2. For theft of clothing ~ All of the theif's clothes are removed from their home. It will be manditory to wear the footy kit that would most likely get their asses kicked in any particular neighborhood. 1 week sentence... or until the person reaches critical care in the hospital.
3. Theft of food ~ Persons found guilty of this crime will have their stomachs sewn up to the size of a plum. That takes care of the hunger pains.
4. Arson.... struggled with this one... don't know what to do with these twisted morons.
I've worked in nearly every single prison in London/Essex and the south and in my opinion they do get treated far too well. It's like you say though, there's plenty of reasons for those willing to change not to go back, but just as many to give some a 'home'. I recently worked on the open prison on the Isle of Sheppey and there's some rough characters there, but they could walk in and out of the gates at will whilst we had to be signed in and out and escorted everywhere
But as usual the truth is somewhere between what should be, and what shit like the daily mail say. They aren't holiday camps.
Oh I agree totally. The prisons can only do what they are told they can do, but prisoners going out for the day do actually need to be signed out via Reception, which you may not have seen. When they get back they are searched (though thanks to the government that has been reduced to a percentage- to save money). I haveknown prisoners who are afraid to get out because its all they have known and has actually given them a structured life, equally I have known prisoners who dont want to get out because they are too cosy with prison life ( they get meals and a telly). Most disturbances are not reported and when they are they always claim specialised police teams were deployed. No they are not, they may send some police out but they surround the perimeter, they don't go inside. That is specially trained prison Officers!
Cut their hands off? Difficult to strike a match or lighter with stumps.
The hell you say! Where?
Or lock them in a room for a month with nothing but David Starkey lectures playing 24/7 with the lights on.
They will not be the same, that I'm certain.
It will be like A Clockwork Orange... only worse because they go back to the hood preaching bigotry.
David Starkey on Newsnight said this:
"The problem is that the whites have become black," the historian said during a discussion about the riots.
An absolutely disgraceful and racist comment.
A bit of sensitivity training in order methinks. I assume that he is a rather old middle or upper class white bloke?
If he had taken race out of it and talked about the gangsta type behaviour that seems common in large sections of the disaffected youth black, white and in-between, he may have had a point. Of sorts.
However, if that had been his point a far more interesting discussion would be why is this behavior attractive?
They should serve their sentence in looted Currys stores where there are no longer any TVs or Playstations. They should also be sentenced to compulsory sales therapy whereby a salesman with a Forrest Gump like IQ and poor personal hygiene explains the benefits of the extended warranty for 8 hours per day.
Its the only language their sort will understand.
Starkey can be perceptive and clever on occasion (particularly about Tudor history) but he's far too fond of being controversial for controversy's sake. Anyway, his remarks are hardly worth worrying about - since when have Britons really cared what historians think? Or artists? Or writers?
Starkey has always been a deeply unpleasant man, as usual he's being deliberately provocative. By 'the whites have become black' he seems to be referring to two things - the Caribbean-influenced MLE accent/dialect, and 'gangsta' culture.
The dialect point is nonsense, as it's much more of a hybrid, with as much influence from Cockney and other London accents as the other way. The problem is the older generation have zero ear for the nuances of this... when my mum does impressions of the yoof it comes out like Viv Richards.
The gangsta thing is probably similar - he talks as if there's no history of criminality, gang culture or rioting in the white English working class.
Surprising he should mention he was reading Enoch Powell... by the way this is him in the eighties:
The dialect point is nonsense, as it's much more of a hybrid, with as much influence from Cockney and other London accents as the other way. The problem is the older generation have zero ear for the nuances of this... when my mum does impressions of the yoof it comes out like Viv Richards.
The gangsta thing is probably similar - he talks as if there's no history of criminality, gang culture or rioting in the white English working class.
Surprising he should mention he was reading Enoch Powell... by the way this is him in the eighties:
That video is more depressing than the riots...
I don't understand the problem, kids are being influenced by Hip Hop and Afro-Caribbean culture, what's wrong with that? It's almost as if it's okay to be influenced by anything other than what Starkey describes as 'black'. Dizzy Rascal's of Nigerian origin but he's clearly been influenced by Jamaican, Cockney and Hip Hop culture... there doesn't seem to be much 'ooda boe' in his accent and style.
Yep. Starkey pretty much has a problem with anything that isn't English. He has a history of 'casual' racism (and misogyny too).
Assorted quotes:
And SteveJ, you're a movie buff aren't you? if you are can you make your way over to the Ent Forum and that thread started by Mehro - who's been acting black for years.
Fo' shizzle.
You have to admit hip hop has a fairly unhelpful message in the main. Only a small minority of rap artists (guys like De La Soul) actually steer away from the stereotypical message of misogyny, glorifying lawlessness, glorifying drug use and even in some cases glorifying murder. I'm completely against censorship I just find hip hop quite depressing.
Re: Movie List
I honestly don't have the overall knowledge, mate; otherwise I'd have volunteered before now. If it was a Lit. list I might be suitable, but not for fims, sadly.
I honestly don't have the overall knowledge, mate; otherwise I'd have volunteered before now. If it was a Lit. list I might be suitable, but not for fims, sadly.
There's no such thing as acting black if you believe we are all equal.
How does a black person act white then? I would like to hear that. A person should never be defined by the colour of his skin but sadly that's the world we live in.
evra has had alot of racial undertones in his posts throughout this thread and it's starting to boil over a bit.
How does a black person act white then? I would like to hear that. A person should never be defined by the colour of his skin but sadly that's the world we live in.
evra has had alot of racial undertones in his posts throughout this thread and it's starting to boil over a bit.
The stupid, idiotic, misogynist, violence, drug and gang culture glorifying bits are what is wrong with it. But worse than all that is the spectacle of white middle class kids pretending that they come from da hood. Truly a cause for violence. Mummy indeed should have smacked.
I've not listened to Hip Hop for years but I reckon the mainstream stuff is all about money, commercialism, Cristal, gold, bitches and what not these days. And not all hop hop was about glorifying gang violence, East Coast hip hop for example, was more about delivering social and political commentary.
Calm down, I didn't agree with the conclusions Starkey was making I just pointed out that he's right to say that a lot of white kids act like they are black, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery don't you know. Obviously when he said black that was shorthand for acting like they're Tupac Shakur, he should have been more precise in his wording (as should I). Needless to say all black men don't act like they're gangsters, even Starkey acknowledged that by referring to David Lammy.
Ahh but kids will always act rebelliously. I only bought NWA's Straight Outta Compton because of the profanities, it even made me feel street cool despite coming from a boring middle class family.
The only thing equal is we all live we all die.
Everyone's life is different - how can we all be equal?
This is spot on.
We are all show evidence of external influence in our behavior.
I have friends who are strongly influenced by Asian culture, and have even resorted to wearing them silly kung fu shoes.
To pick out the negative aspects of a stereotype and label it 'black' is ignorant. The 'gangsta persona' has a multitude of influences, much of it has been so exaggerated it has become a comical. I blame Tupac, who adopted the persona and ran away with it.
There's no such thing as acting black unless you have pre-conceived notions about how black people should act.
Acting like 'Tupac Shakur' should not be a conception for acting black, it should be a conception for acting like 'Tupac Shakur.'
So what does it mean to act like Ralph Bunche?
Going through your logic you're starting to say, it's ok, not all black people act like black people?
If you look at any perosn of race and expect them to act in a certain way, it makes you a racist, it's that simple.
Tell you what though, this comment from Starkey seems more insulting, patronising and racist than his other remarks:
He seems to be implying that black people should only be considered civilised if they strive to mimic whites in every socially-acceptable way.
He seems to be implying that black people should only be considered civilised if they strive to mimic whites in every socially-acceptable way.
And of course, he's ignoring the fact that spoken language in general is becoming more and more 'shorthand', regardless of race. Oh and then there's the inconvenient truth that, worlwide, the poorest and least influential in society are effectively ignored, left to rot etc (unless they kick up a fuss/revolt, or are needed for wars or votes). No small part of this policy of wilful ignorance is the very education that might end the seemingly wilful ignorance of those 'Morlocks' so castigated by reactionary critics with vested interests in maintaining a corrupt, immoral and demonstrably unfair status quo.
I acknowledged that I should have been more precise in my wording, I think that's the issue people have with what Starkey says. He was really talking about this "gangsta" culture that pervades a certain element of society, regardless of race.
That same culture used to be something only exhibited by a certain element of the black population (where that particular culture sprang from). White thugs used to talk like Danny Dyer and now many of them talk like Eminem. Of course it would be ridiculous to assert that there were no white people exhibiting the behaviour of these "gangstas" before it became mainstream. They were just acting like thugs in a different style.
The 'gangsta' culture you refer to, has its influences from many different cultures.
I think it's impossible to source it's roots with the 'black population.'
No. "Gangter" culture's origins are hard to place but "gangsta" culture was certainly born in the black ghettos of America.
Right. But what has that got to do with the riots? Starkey's point seemed to be that whites out looting last week were somehow 'acting black'? Are people influenced by 'gangsta culture' more likely to go out looting than people influenced by 'gangster culture'? Where does the proud history of British rioting, going back to the Corn Laws and before, fit into this?
I think a lot of what offends Starkey is to do with accent and dialect. He hears MLE - which he calls 'patois' - and he finds it foreign, 'Jamaican'...er, 'black'. He equates David Lammy's accent (RP-Eastuary) with 'sounding white'. Presumably he expects the London inner-city working class to speak traditional Cockney? But what he hears as traditional Cockney would have sounded weird to George Bernard Shaw... accents don't stay static.
I think what this chap was trying to say is that white "gangster" kids are now copying the style and behaviour of black "gangsta" kids because it's seen as much cooler and perhaps more definitive of their ideal of how street gangster types should be.
And that's relevant to them rioting and looting how exactly? How does their behaviour differ from your average riot? More stolen trainers?
"What's happened is that a substaaahntial section of the chavs... have become black. The whites have become black."
"What's happened is that a substaaahntial section of the chavs... have become black. The whites have become black."
That's merely my interpretation of what he was trying to say.
Could be wrong, just my twopenneth, but I'm not getting any deeper into the finer points because it always seems to turn into people accusing others of being racist at any given opportunity. Ends up where it's just too hard to try and discuss things.
Could be wrong, just my twopenneth, but I'm not getting any deeper into the finer points because it always seems to turn into people accusing others of being racist at any given opportunity. Ends up where it's just too hard to try and discuss things.
I don't see what race has got to do with any of this? Black people are obviously well represented in the looters (alongside all other races) purely because a lot of these poor parts of London have a large black population. It's not a race issue.
As for 'whites acting black', it's just a natural part of cultural exchange. I'm not even sure 'acting black' means anything at all, though that perception does exist amongst the middle-classes.
As for 'whites acting black', it's just a natural part of cultural exchange. I'm not even sure 'acting black' means anything at all, though that perception does exist amongst the middle-classes.
Mockney... calling Mockney
Please do a mash-up of Starkey at 3.33 reading out that email in his street accent, complete with little shoulder-thrusts. OMG that is pure Brass Eye.
BBC News - England riots: 'The whites have become black' says David Starkey
Please do a mash-up of Starkey at 3.33 reading out that email in his street accent, complete with little shoulder-thrusts. OMG that is pure Brass Eye.
BBC News - England riots: 'The whites have become black' says David Starkey