Wayne Rooney is a Manchester United great - so why is he not more loved?

I think it's slightly overstated all this "let himself go", not professional business.
You don't stay at the top of the premier league for 10 years by pissing about. Just ask the real wasters who let themselves go!
 
Even if you ignore the opportunistic and terribly distasteful way he actually attained his 2 mega contracts, the fact is that he never went on to perform to the level he wanted to be paid for more than a season. However many times since he actually signed these contracts has he performed like one of the worlds best players, hell how many times has he performed even like one of the league's best 10 players? Maybe 1 season in 6?

Anyone that is so aggressive with their salary demands and negotiation tactics is only going to be adored if they then play to the level that they clearly feel they're at to be paid said salary. This is exacerbated by the fact that these aggressive negotiations had a hugely negative impact on the team and on Rooney's performances. Ronaldo could get away with it and still be loved because he put the performances in to more than justify any grief he caused.

Any player who holds himself up as one of the best players in the world isn't going to be loved when he falls so far short of this self assessment over a 5 year period as to make his salary a subject of universal ridicule.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Oh and by the way, re this idea that Rooney isn't trying any more, he's covered the second highest distance per game of any United player this season (14th highest in the league)

He's covered more ground per game than any other striker, at any other team. He's also running further than he did last season (where he played a lot of games in midfield) presumably in an effort to make up for the poor performances by working that bit harder. So yeah, his effort clearly can't be faulted. At least it shouldn't be. Yet, somehow, it is.

@acnumber9
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It might be because that ratio is ratio per game, and not per minute, and Rooney unlike our other players, plays every minute of every game.

Champions league stats are easy to find on their site, and if you count ratio per minute in our CL games, you'll find out that Rooney isn't that high on the list as dailymail's stats suggest.

He is far from a workhorse he used to be, you don't need stats to back that up, just watch the games. However, that could be down to van Gaal, because more often than not Rooney is telling people around him to press while he keeps his position, maybe that's something that van Gaal demands from him so that he can save the energy for the period when we have the ball.
 
Amar__ said:
It might be because that ratio is ratio per game, and not per minute, and Rooney unlike our other players, plays every minute of every game.

Champions league stats are easy to find on their site, and if you count ratio per minute in our CL games, you'll find out that Rooney isn't that high on the list as dailymail's stats suggest.

He is far from a workhorse he used to be, you don't need stats to back that up, just watch the games. However, that could be down to van Gaal, because more often than not Rooney is telling people around him to press while he keeps his position, maybe that's something that van Gaal demands from him so that he can save the energy for the period when we have the ball.
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If you have per minute stats, post them.

I agree he seems to be making a lot less sprints per game than he used to. Although the way we play means our strikers shouldn't need to sprint much, or cover much ground. You'd expect that more from a counter-attacking team.

All of which means the fact that Rooney covers more ground per game than any other PL striker speaks volumes. He's clearly putting a shift in. It's a lack of quality, not a lack of effort, that's the problem.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He wasn't just "an example". He was the main example. Hence the one I focussed on.



Can I defend Rooney's actions? No more than I can those of Roy Keane or Rio Ferdinand, or any other player who played hard-ball over a new contract but was fortunate enough to do so without it all becoming so public. I would rather it didn't happen but I think he had some reason to be concerned about what was going on at the club after the Glazer takeover. God knows the majority of United fans had similar concerns. This is what he's being pilloried for, at the end of the day. For thinking like a fan, concerned about the direction United was going in the post-Ronaldo era.
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Those players didn't question the clubs ambition in public nor did they down tools for the first couple of months of those seasons. He wasn't thinking like a fan. He was thinking of himself.
 
Rooney has been a good servant, but he comes off as mercenary as any other high-priced recruit. We've been spoiled by the Class of 92, Cantona, Ole, etc. who didn't seem that they were in it for the money but for the team & badge. Of course, they were all well remunerated, but we were less likely to see to what extent and in such a public manner of negotiating. Still, you can see that Rooney bleeds for this team just as much as our heroes and cherishes the captain's armband as much as any other accolade, but circumstances will probably continue to chip away at our affection for him, unfortunately.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You got a yes answer. Right there in the post you quoted.

I do think Rooney is working as hard as he used to, yes (that's another yes answer) His issue isn't a lack of effort, it's a lack of quality (and an obvious crisis in confidence)
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You said in as many words. You're deluding yourself if you think he's working as hard. What about when he clearly can't be arsed keeping himself in shape? Also, if you're admitting you did it with Van Persie are you not as bad as the people you criticised?
 
acnumber9 said:
Those players didn't question the clubs ambition in public nor did they down tools for the first couple of months of those seasons. He wasn't thinking like a fan. He was thinking of himself.
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It was the club that made those negotiations public. Of course he was thinking of himself. However, just like fans, this involved wanting the club to be as competitive as possible.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It was the club that made those negotiations public. Of course he was thinking of himself. However, just like fans, this involved wanting the club to be as competitive as possible.
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The club did not release Wayne Rooney's statement.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Oh and by the way, re this idea that Rooney isn't trying any more, he's covered the second highest distance per game of any United player this season (14th highest in the league)

He's covered more ground per game than any other striker, at any other team. He's also running further than he did last season (where he played a lot of games in midfield) presumably in an effort to make up for the poor performances by working that bit harder. So yeah, his effort clearly can't be faulted. At least it shouldn't be. Yet, somehow, it is.

@acnumber9
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At least try an be consistent in your application of stats. If you're going to use then you might want to rethink your thoughts on Van Persie.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...anchester-Uniteds-hardest-working-player.html
 
vi1lain said:
I understand that to a point - but we could have done so much more. After we lost Ronaldo and Tevez who was the next great player? RVP for 1 season?
Why didn't we win FA Cups? Or Do better in Europe? When City signed Silva & Aguero I thought to myself, why aren't we signing them, or at least been linked?

To say that playing for SAF meant that you can't question his ambition is silly, we built up a team stacked with deadwood, aging players and unfulfilled potential.
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It was though. Anyone who knew him, especially those who worked for him should be aware that he'd be fighting or trophies until he packed it in.
 
glazed said:
Or he could blame SAF and the club for leaking his discontent in the hope of intimidating him into moderating his demadns. It's often forgotten that as little as the players have loyalty to the club these days, the club usually has even less loyalty to the players. They're both at the end of the day commercial operations selling a fantasy to the fans.
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This would be after weeks of Rooney's people leaking stories of him being unhappy. Coupled with his appalling lack of fitness and mid season sabbatical to get the excess lead out of his arse.
 
acnumber9 said:
At least try an be consistent in your application of stats. If you're going to use then you might want to rethink your thoughts on Van Persie.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...anchester-Uniteds-hardest-working-player.html
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So Van Persie covered the 9th highest distance per game in our squad last season (Di Maria and Januzaj the only attacking players to cover less ground) while Rooney was 6th last season and 2nd so far in 2015/16. Sorry, what's your point? Do you still think Rooney's working less hard than he used to?
 
acnumber9 said:
It was though. Anyone who knew him, especially those who worked for him should be aware that he'd be fighting or trophies until he packed it in.
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That doesn't justify the way he let the squad deteriorate whilst our nearest rivals strengthened.

He's the greatest manager ever, nobody will ever surpass him. But it's not like he's incapable of mistakes.
 
vi1lain said:
If you genuinely think that Rooney isn't a top 150 player in the world, without exaggeration, then there's no point having a discussion about it.
You're entitled to your opinion.
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I respect your opinion but would you state some reasons why it would be exaggerated to regard this Rooney (particularly since April 2015) as not a top 150 player? The world is full with quality players who are not well known simply because they do not play in the best leagues. Take for instance Martial. I'm sure many fans and pundits outside France didn't even know that he exist only 3 months ago. Now he is comfortably the best forward at one of the biggest clubs in the world. Or think of D. Costa. Before moving to Munich he wasn't very highly appreciated. Now, he's one of the best wide forwards in Europe, surely a top 50 player. Honestly, do you think that Rooney is better than Gomis? Is Gomis a top 150 player in the world?
 
finneh said:
Even if you ignore the opportunistic and terribly distasteful way he actually attained his 2 mega contracts, the fact is that he never went on to perform to the level he wanted to be paid for more than a season. However many times since he actually signed these contracts has he performed like one of the worlds best players, hell how many times has he performed even like one of the league's best 10 players? Maybe 1 season in 6?

Anyone that is so aggressive with their salary demands and negotiation tactics is only going to be adored if they then play to the level that they clearly feel they're at to be paid said salary. This is exacerbated by the fact that these aggressive negotiations had a hugely negative impact on the team and on Rooney's performances. Ronaldo could get away with it and still be loved because he put the performances in to more than justify any grief he caused.

Any player who holds himself up as one of the best players in the world isn't going to be loved when he falls so far short of this self assessment over a 5 year period as to make his salary a subject of universal ridicule.
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Logged in for the first time in ages just to slap a "this" on this. This.
 
Amar__ said:
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsle.../round=2000634/players/index.html#order=3desc

Just filter those by team, and then divide them however you want. Bit of a problem is that most of our players have played different number of minutes. But you can immediately see that out of 4 with 180 minutes, two have covered more than him, Mata and Schneiderlin.
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On my phone, so can't work that at all. Why don't you just post the stats per minute for all the United players? Or at least the attacking ones?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
So Van Persie covered the 9th highest distance per game in our squad last season (Di Maria and Januzaj the only attacking players to cover less ground) while Rooney was 6th last season and 2nd so far in 2015/16. Sorry, what's your point? Do you still think Rooney's working less hard than he used to?
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By your rules he was our 9th hardest working player and yet you keep telling us how he wasn't trying. Rooney played in midfield which clearly calls for more running and yet wasn't much ahead of him. Yes I believe he doesn't put as much effort in as he once did. Your stats don't prove he doesn't. Our eyes show he does.
 
vi1lain said:
That doesn't justify the way he let the squad deteriorate whilst our nearest rivals strengthened.

He's the greatest manager ever, nobody will ever surpass him. But it's not like he's incapable of mistakes.
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Rooney was part of any deterioration. The moment we signed better players he threw his toys out of the pram again. We can dispel any notion he was acting like a fan or for the greater good.
 
This comment (especially the ones highlighted) from one of the telegraph readers sums up why I don't have the love for Rooney even if I respect all he has achieved for the club:
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"For Rooney, his career at United has been purely business" That one phrase sums up why Rooney will be one of the greatest players in Manchester United's history but will never be a legend. TWICE, he held the club to ransom. The only reason he is still there is because no-one else would pay him £300k a week (particularly if you consider his actual on field performances).

".....No-one cares that he was, is and always will be an Evertonian. That is his right. Ronaldo went to Real Madrid but delayed to give United fans his best season. He will always be welcomed back to Old Trafford. Sparky played for Chelsea and managed City, but he will always be thought of, fondly. There are others that could be mentioned but Rooney? Rooney is to United what Sterling was to Liverpool. He's not in love with the club; he's in love with himself. He might claim to be a team player but the team is Team Rooney. United fans will cheer to the rafters if Rooney scores against City on Sunday. We will sing his name if and when he picks up a trophy as captain. However, when he goes, he will be gone for good, not mourned, no longer celebrated."
 
acnumber9 said:
By your rules he was our 9th hardest working player and yet you keep telling us how he wasn't trying. Rooney played in midfield which clearly calls for more running and yet wasn't much ahead of him. Yes I believe he doesn't put as much effort in as he once did. Your stats don't prove he doesn't. Our eyes show he does.
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You think "our eyes" are more reliable than knowing how much ground players actually cover? I don't.

9th most hardest player = 3rd least hard working attacking player and least hard working striker. In this instance, my eyes and the stats concur.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You think "our eyes" are more reliable than knowing how much ground players actually cover? I don't.

9th most hardest player = 3rd least hard working attacking player and least hard working striker. In this instance, my eyes and the stats concur.
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Which would also have made Rooney the what? 5th or 6th hardest working midfielder? For a player so lauded for how hard he works it's weird that a player Mourinho let go for not working hard enough bested him. The differences are negligible at best. Factor in that the nature of playing in midfield means you will run more and that Rooney played more minutes than Van Persie then it's even less so. Young was regularly praise for his work rate last season and rightly so. Yet playing in a position that requires a lot of running he didn't do a lot more than Van Persie. Falcao was regularly defended for his shit performances by saying at least he works hard. Again the difference is marginal. I'm not saying that this is irrefutable evidence that Van Persie worked hard. I'm simply applying your logic. Which is poor at best.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
On my phone, so can't work that at all. Why don't you just post the stats per minute for all the United players? Or at least the attacking ones?
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Because I would have to count them all myself, for the second time.

Just few of them then:

Players who played total of 180 minutes:

Rooney covers 123,12 meters per minute.
Schneiderlin - 130,77
Mata - 129,42
Darmian - 120,27

So Rooney is just ahead of Darmian.

Others:

Herrera - 127,81 (didn't play full 90 minutes in first game though, so he has advantage that he was "earlier" on the pitch when players usually run more, but still, in last game they both played full 90 and he covered more ground than Rooney)
Lingard - 134,16 (but he played just 80 minutes)

There are few others who have covered more, but they have played much less, so it wouldn't be fair to Rooney if I included them. I didn't include those who covered less than him.
 
And btw, these stats are pretty meaningles, because for example, someone like Valencia is always pretty average when it comes to distance covered, yet he is easily one of our hardest working players.
 
vi1lain said:
If you genuinely think that Rooney isn't a top 150 player in the world, without exaggeration, then there's no point having a discussion about it.
You're entitled to your opinion.
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He probably isn't top 100 if we are counting players in all positions. Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern all have 12-15 footballers each who are at a higher level, then you have clubs like PSG, Atletico, Chelsea, City and Arsenal who have 8-10 better footballers too. Then a few good teams like Roma, Tottenham etc. who also have a few players who would contest Rooney. Top 150 might be a push but I honestly don't think he is top 100 in current form.
 
At the time I was annoyed at his opinion that Fergie had lost ambition

History suggests Rooney was probably right as Fergie did enough to be the best in England every other year but we didn't compete with the best in Europe

Think Rooney just handled the way he went about things poorly a couple of times
 
Treble said:
I respect your opinion but would you state some reasons why it would be exaggerated to regard this Rooney (particularly since April 2015) as not a top 150 player? The world is full with quality players who are not well known simply because they do not play in the best leagues. Take for instance Martial. I'm sure many fans and pundits outside France didn't even know that he exist only 3 months ago. Now he is comfortably the best forward at one of the biggest clubs in the world. Or think of D. Costa. Before moving to Munich he wasn't very highly appreciated. Now, he's one of the best wide forwards in Europe, surely a top 50 player. Honestly, do you think that Rooney is better than Gomis? Is Gomis a top 150 player in the world?
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His form isn't good enough, I'll happily admit. But yes absolutely I'd put him in the top 150.
is he on a decline? Yes. Should he score more goals? Yes.
But it's ridiculous to suggest that Gomis is a better player, but again that's your opinion.

The world is filled with great players, but even proven great players in the PL play terribly (Shevchenko, Falcao, Di Maria, Robben etc) that doesn't suddenly mean they're terrible - and the majority of unproven players far outweighs the Martial's and Costa's of the world.

But again that's your opinion so it's futile arguing about it.
 
Amar__ said:
Because I would have to count them all myself, for the second time.

Just few of them then:

Players who played total of 180 minutes:

Rooney covers 123,12 meters per minute.
Schneiderlin - 130,77
Mata - 129,42
Darmian - 120,27

So Rooney is just ahead of Darmian.

Others:

Herrera - 127,81 (didn't play full 90 minutes in first game though, so he has advantage that he was "earlier" on the pitch when players usually run more, but still, in last game they both played full 90 and he covered more ground than Rooney)
Lingard - 134,16 (but he played just 80 minutes)

There are few others who have covered more, but they have played much less, so it wouldn't be fair to Rooney if I included them. I didn't include those who covered less than him.
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So Rooney covered the 4th (or 5th, if we include Lingard) highest amount of minutes per CL minute played. And he's a striker. I'd say that's just more evidence he's working hard this season.

Playing poorly but working hard.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
So Rooney covered the 4th (or 5th, if we include Lingard) highest amount of minutes per CL minute played. And he's a striker. I'd say that's just more evidence he's working hard this season.

Playing poorly but working hard.
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I am not sure anyone argued that he isn't working hard, just that he isn't working harder than our average player as he is often described, or as he once did. You could say that pretty much every player is working hard in our team, apart from one or two maybe and that Rooney definitely doesn't stand out.

And if I include few other players who've played less he would be more down the list.
 
acnumber9 said:
Which would also have made Rooney the what? 5th or 6th hardest working midfielder? For a player so lauded for how hard he works it's weird that a player Mourinho let go for not working hard enough bested him. The differences are negligible at best. Factor in that the nature of playing in midfield means you will run more and that Rooney played more minutes than Van Persie then it's even less so. Young was regularly praise for his work rate last season and rightly so. Yet playing in a position that requires a lot of running he didn't do a lot more than Van Persie. Falcao was regularly defended for his shit performances by saying at meat he works hard. Again the difference is marginal. I'm not saying that this is irrefutable evidence that Van Persie worked hard. I'm simply applying your logic. Which is poor at best.
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Last season Rooney ran the furthest of any striker but the least far of any CM. Which probably reflects a season flitting between the two positions. Van Persie ran the least far of any striker. Read into that what you will.

Anyway, this distance discussion kicked off about Rooney's performance this season. You accused him of lacking in effort. I posted stats showing he's covered the second highest km/game of any United player. More than he did last season and more than any other striker in the league. If you're insisting that I'm deluded and Rooney really has stopped working hard this season then I'm happy to agree to disagree.
 
Amar__ said:
I am not sure anyone argued that he isn't working hard, just that he isn't working harder than our average player as he is often described, or as he once did. You could say that pretty much every player is working hard in our team, apart from one or two maybe and that Rooney definitely doesn't stand out.

And if I include few other players who've played less he would be more down the list.
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You're talking about CL games only, of course. The stats I posted were league games.
 
1. Flirting with City
2. Flirting with Chelsea
3. Shite form over past 12 months despite getting very well paid
4. Lets face it he's a cnut
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Last season Rooney ran the furthest of any striker but the least far of any CM. Which probably reflects a season flitting between the two positions. Van Persie ran the least far of any striker. Read into that what you will.

Anyway, this distance discussion kicked off about Rooney's performance this season. You accused him of lacking in effort. I posted stats showing he's covered the second highest km/game of any United player. More than he did last season and more than any other striker in the league. If you're insisting that I'm deluded and Rooney really has stopped working hard this season then I'm happy to agree to disagree.
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Distance covered is a poor way of proving effort as I've shown. Young didn't run much more than Van Persie but nobody could mount a convincing argument that he isn't a hard worker. Your stats were useless. It's funny how the number of games he played up front is made to be more to suit this side of the argument but if anyone mentioned his goal record you play up the amount of time he spent in midfield.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He only has himself to blame for staying at United. Had Ronaldo stayed, no doubt he'd have been involved in a lot of unseemly squabbling about contracts too. Just like he has been at Real Madrid. Because he fecked off as soon as the big money came calling, United fans are able to only remember an idealised version of him.

The way so many fans view him and Rooney so differently reminds me of the way people put their first love on a pedestal, while constantly belittling the wife who has stuck with them through thick and thin.

EDIT: Obviously Ronaldo is a much better player, which would have smoothed over a lot of the issues but it seems churlish to hate on Rooney primarily for not being as good a player as we hoped he'd be, despite the fact he'll likely end up our highest goal-scorer ever.
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This. Great analogy with the wife thing as well :lol:

Feck, let me go hug the missus!
 
I really don't care how much players are paid anymore, being old school I judge a players legendry status by their commitment and love of the Club, I honestly think that his behaviour on the victory parade tour following our 20th title success was an absolute disgrace and he should have been shown the door at whatever cost that same day, every genuine United fan was on cloud nine that day, but he chose the occasion to disrespect my football club.
He never has been, and never will be a club legend in my book, a great player yes, but a United Great NO.
 
acnumber9 said:
Distance covered is a poor way of proving effort as I've shown. Young didn't run much more than Van Persie but nobody could mount a convincing argument that he isn't a hard worker. Your stats were useless. It's funny how the number of games he played up front is made to be more to suit this side of the argument but if anyone mentioned his goal record you play up the amount of time he spent in midfield.
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He hasn't played a single minute in midfield this season. Which is what we were discussing when I posted those "useless" stats. You know, the whole lack of effort thing?
 
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