What Now For Moyes?

Fergie saw something of himself in Moyes, and Moyes being Scottish contributed to that.

But if we hadn't got Moyes, do people really believe that any other Scottish managers would have been close to the job? Come on.

Everton averaged what, 7th under Moyes? Top third? Over 10 years in the most demanding league and last season makes him a bad manager or even average? Right.

We've always been keen to go for young British players and get that British spine in there for the qualities that they generally bring. But that doesn't mean we only signed Phil Jones because he was English.
 
Grinner said:
Christ he was awful...can't believe you lot appointed him.
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It did make a bit of sense at the time. He was worse than we could have ever imagined though.
 
Glock17 said:
Fergie saw something of himself in Moyes, and Moyes being Scottish contributed to that.

But if we hadn't got Moyes, do people really believe that any other Scottish managers would have been close to the job? Come on.

Everton averaged what, 7th under Moyes? Top third? Over 10 years in the most demanding league and last season makes him a bad manager or even average? Right.

We've always been keen to go for young British players and get that British spine in there for the qualities that they generally bring. But that doesn't mean we only signed Phil Jones because he was English.
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TBF that's a bit of a reductive argument mate. Even Allardyce finished 8, 6, 8, 7 through 2003-2007 at Bolton and David did finish 17th and 11th in league in 2004 and 2006. One particularly unnerving aspect was David's inability to progress beyond the comfort zone he had achieved at Everton. The impression one got was of a man perfectly content with regular 7-8 place finishes rather than trying to push the envelope a bit. He didn't progress in his tactics or methods while the others caught up. As a general rule in football, if you aren't going forwards you're most definitely regressing. This term perfectly applies to David.

11 years he had to build a team in his image and all we saw was a dour, agricultural brand of percentage football except the 2012/ 2013 where he admittedly made some positive changes. Through all those years he never quite managed to address Everton's chronic want for a top striker. Through the decade he had multiple chances to secure some silverware but never did and always bottled up on bigger occasions. In contrast Everton seem to have taken a quantum leap in just one season under Martinez, and that suggests that it was their previous manager who was holding them back and not the other way round (as portrayed be the media).

It's this cowardice for want of a better term, lack of winning mentality, of swagger and intangibles that should've sent warning signals when the name was first suggested. The players fed on this inherent fear and it showed in their performances on the field last season. United as a collective really made a hash of the appointment but on some levels I'm a bit relieved that we did. Because going forward I hope we have a deliberated consideration of a managers based on credentials and not nod and wink practises.
 
Finding consistency isn't easy, only a handful of managers can do it. The lack of a winning mentality and all that stuff might explain why he was an awful fit for United, but doesn't necessarily make him a bad manager.

Some of the managers who win aplenty would struggle to do what he did with Everton. If it's all about doing the best you can with a clubs resources and manage to do it consistently over a long period then he did a great job.

It's crazy to think that he's a bad manager for it if you ask me. He was bad in his spell with us, because he wasn't suited for the role. For the majority of clubs in the Premier League he'd do a great job though - guaranteeing Premier League football every season with little risk, and the ability to spread thin resources well.

On the Big Sam example, I don't really see what you're point is. 'Even' Big Sam - just because his teams play dire football doesn't make him a bad manager. You're right, he did a fantastic job at Bolton.
 
Solius said:
It did make a bit of sense at the time. He was worse than we could have ever imagined though.
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No it didn't. We just convinced ourselves it did in the haze of romantic post retirement emotion. No other club of our stature would've ever hired a manager with his pedegree, and every other club was laughing at us when we did. With reason.

I agree with @Glock17 to the extent that the Scottishness was overplayed, but that it was an element in a kindred image Fergie saw. A large element if his autobiograhy is anything to go by, but married to other, factors. All of which however, were indeed to do with identity. The oddest thing is that Fergie actually underestimated his own footballing know-how. He believed his own cult in a sense. Favouring the idea he'd succeeded because of who he was, and not how he'd done it. Though a lot of very successful people fall into this trap I think. When you've conquered the world - so to speak - there's always an almost quasi-religious/karmic tendency to believe you deserved it. That the stars alligned to reward you for getting life right. His pride came before a fall in a sense. It just happened to be someone elses fall.

It was literally a Damned United like cock up. Only Clough always had other notable successes to fall back on. You do tend to think that Moyes will never, ever live this down. He'll always be the man that fecked up at Manchester United. Worldwide.

Ringo 07 said:
Appointing him was akin to George Graham or Tony Pulis taking over at Barcelona
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George Graham was a pretty successful manager. There'd be infintely more logic in Barca appointing a double league winner, with 4 domestic cups and a European trophy to his name.
 
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Glock17 said:
Finding consistency isn't easy, only a handful of managers can do it. The lack of a winning mentality and all that stuff might explain why he was an awful fit for United, but doesn't necessarily make him a bad manager.

Some of the managers who win aplenty would struggle to do what he did with Everton. If it's all about doing the best you can with a clubs resources and manage to do it consistently over a long period then he did a great job.

It's crazy to think that he's a bad manager for it if you ask me. He was bad in his spell with us, because he wasn't suited for the role. For the majority of clubs in the Premier League he'd do a great job though - guaranteeing Premier League football every season with little risk, and the ability to spread thin resources well.

On the Big Sam example, I don't really see what you're point is. 'Even' Big Sam - just because his teams play dire football doesn't make him a bad manager. You're right, he did a fantastic job at Bolton.
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Fair enough mate, since I'm a United supporter the observations were more relative to our club. But from a marco perspective, David was a mediocre manager at best. Wouldn't class his body of work or Sam's at Bolton as even bordering on the fantastic.

That term is more apt for Rodgers at Swansea or Pochettino at Southampton because those teams transcended the sum of parts. You got the impression that the manager had a clear philosophy of attractive, successful football and a blueprint to implement that structure.

I think modern football has become too commercialized and the suits only focus on the results and the financial bottom line. Because with Moyes one always had a sense that despite their lukewarm success and some stability, Everton distinctly lacked direction, charisma and plateaued after some initial highs. And those are major drawbacks for me personally, even if I were a supporter of Everton, Bolton or the like.

You're right with the broader point though in that he wasn't suited for the role at United, the marriage was doomed from the very start.
 
RustyS said:
SAF, Guardiola, LvG, and Ancelotti were also players. The issue has more to do with personality types and the willingness to be adventurous enough to learn and apply new things.

Look at LvG. He prefers a 4-3-3 but saw that a 3-4-1-2 suits our personnel better so implemented it right away. I don't see Moyes trying a 3-4-1-2 out in a million years even if his squad is tailor-made for it.
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Maybe I phrased it wrong. He got into management as an ex-player, and no doubt he worked heard during his career. But tell me, was he able to advance his philosophy in 10 years as manager? Do you see a natural progression in his coaching? Do you see him keeping abreast of technical innovations in Europe and Latin America and trying to incorporate those into his method/ coaching style? Feck no. To be in a position like him @ Everton, where he doesn't face much pressure (he doesn't have to win trophies, as long as didn't get relegated he was OK), and not learn and grow as a coach is kinda pathetic. Give him a club of champions and he fecking brought it down with his mediocrity. I don't care about his human qualities, dignity, or the United way, he should have been fired in October.
 
ravi2 said:
Have we exonerated SAF and Bobby C for appointing him and the board for going along with it?
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Yes. I have a long enough memory not to keep on holding that against him when the positives he brought to the club far outweighs a few(though crucial) errors. Same with Sir Bobby.
 
Suedesi said:
Maybe I phrased it wrong. He got into management as an ex-player, and no doubt he worked heard during his career. But tell me, was he able to advance his philosophy in 10 years as manager? Do you see a natural progression in his coaching? Do you see him keeping abreast of technical innovations in Europe and Latin America and trying to incorporate those into his method/ coaching style? Feck no. To be in a position like him @ Everton, where he doesn't face much pressure (he doesn't have to win trophies, as long as didn't get relegated he was OK), and not learn and grow as a coach is kinda pathetic. Give him a club of champions and he fecking brought it down with his mediocrity. I don't care about his human qualities, dignity, or the United way, he should have been fired in October.
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My post and yours are in complete agreement. That's essentially what I said but you expanded on it.
 
ravi2 said:
I started to read his book around christmas but was so depressed at the events on the pitch I couldn't bring myself to finish it.
While I will always be grateful to SAF and he was one of the best of all time but choosing Moyes because basically he was Scottish was just criminal, and the board went along with it like he was seriously being considered all along!
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I've read parts of Fergie's book, and doesn't he speak about knowing Jimmy Lumsden from way back in there as well?
 
ravi2 said:
Gary Neville is an absolutely shit pundit, especially when it comes to all things Manchester United.
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Gary Neville is like Xavi Hernandez. Now, hear me out. If Xavi became a pundit, he'd by a bit like Gary because he's completely indoctrinated by the Barça way, like Gary Neville is in the so called united way. For the sake of Gary's punditry, it might have been good for him to experience life away from united at club level. For England, what do you think he's brought to the national team?
 
He's obviously not that good a manager, otherwise he'd have a job by now. Or maybe he's been offered ones but he thinks he can do better.
 
He's probably holding out for a higher level of job than he's been offered at the moment.

May get one when the sacking season commences.
 
ravi2 said:
Gary Neville is an absolutely shit pundit, especially when it comes to all things Manchester United.
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Perhaps you think he's shit regarding United because he doesn't agree with your thoughts. For me, he does, so I like him. Top pundit. Proper United legend.
 
Midnight1811 said:
Perhaps you think he's shit regarding United because he doesn't agree with your thoughts. For me, he does, so I like him. Top pundit. Proper United legend.
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If you agree with him in that Moyes needed more time, or we should have stuck with the 442 then you are hopeless as well.
 
ravi2 said:
If you agree with him in that Moyes needed more time, or we should have stuck with the 442 then you are hopeless as well.
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Hmm, must be the Manchester air. For you, on the outside, I guess you can have a wider view on things, where I am there's disappointment in the way things went pear shaped last season. Us English are prone to be uncomfortable in going away from tradition, it's a culture thing. Eventually you'll hear Neville point of view change. It'll just take time.
 
Don't want to dwell on Gary Neville too much, but did he defend AVB in the same fashion he defended Moyes?
 
I like Gary Neville as a pundit, especially when he is describing periods of play and how they develop.

He talks absolute shite when it comes to United though.
 
Name Changed said:
I like Gary Neville as a pundit, especially when he is describing periods of play and how they develop.

He talks absolute shite when it comes to United though.
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I agree his love for United clouds his judgement somewhat.
 
Midnight1811 said:
Hmm, must be the Manchester air. For you, on the outside, I guess you can have a wider view on things, where I am there's disappointment in the way things went pear shaped last season. Us English are prone to be uncomfortable in going away from tradition, it's a culture thing. Eventually you'll hear Neville point of view change. It'll just take time.
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I really don't know what the Manchester air has to do with it.

I get that GN has to defend his brother, as would I.... But his agenda was Moyes "needs more time" while the club I love was being run into the ground, he advocated sticking with the 442, crossing and whatever prehistoric "traditions" he had stuck in his head from the early 90's.

In the end he proved he cared more about himself than the club and I have no wish to hear anything he has to say which is a pity because he started well as a commentator but completely lost his way... And his objectivity.
 
ravi2 said:
I really don't know what the Manchester air has to do with it.

I get that GN has to defend his brother, as would I.... But his agenda was Moyes "needs more time" while the club I love was being run into the ground, he advocated sticking with the 442, crossing and whatever prehistoric "traditions" he had stuck in his head from the early 90's.

In the end he proved he cared more about himself than the club and I have no wish to hear anything he has to say which is a pity because he started well as a commentator but completely lost his way... And his objectivity.
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The Manchester Air is about tradition. We've been used to a certain manner that it's difficult to adapt and change. In life change will be forced upon us, as it is now, it's just for us mancs it'll be a while to become familiar with it. That's all.
 
Gary Neville on england/united related matters as a pundit is shit and super biased/prehistoric in terms of his opinions. Based on england's performances/selection choices... he's not as great a coach as he thinks he is either, but obviously he'll hopefully have learnt from the experience.

Still like him, but Phil is really going to have to up his game.. some of his opinions in Brazil = cringe.
 
Raees said:
Gary Neville on england/united related matters as a pundit is shit and super biased/prehistoric in terms of his opinions. Based on england's performances/selection choices... he's not as great a coach as he thinks he is either, but obviously he'll hopefully have learnt from the experience.

Still like him, but Phil is really going to have to up his game.. some of his opinions in Brazil = cringe.
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I don't blame him for being biased. It's very, very hard psychologically to shunt away from being negative when it's about United, all through his life United has played a part, be it growing up, to when he was playing, to now having retired.
 
Midnight1811 said:
The Manchester Air is about tradition. We've been used to a certain manner that it's difficult to adapt and change. In life change will be forced upon us, as it is now, it's just for us mancs it'll be a while to become familiar with it. That's all.
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I think I you are in the minority because most folks I know cannot wait for changes that move the club in a positive direction, hiring LVG was the biggest positive change we could have made and our most important signing of the summer.
With him and Woodie, who now clearly prioritizes transfers as much as he does sponsors, I feel as though our chances for a title run are realistic :)
 
ravi2 said:
I really don't know what the Manchester air has to do with it.

I get that GN has to defend his brother, as would I.... But his agenda was Moyes "needs more time" while the club I love was being run into the ground, he advocated sticking with the 442, crossing and whatever prehistoric "traditions" he had stuck in his head from the early 90's.

In the end he proved he cared more about himself than the club and I have no wish to hear anything he has to say which is a pity because he started well as a commentator but completely lost his way... And his objectivity.
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Just wow. What are you basing this assertion on ? A United born and bred man, who spent 30 years at the club and was clearly having mixed emotion between his convictions cares more about himself than the club ? Ok...
 
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Invictus said:
Just wow. What are you basing this assertion on ? A United born and bred man, who spent 30 years at the club and was clearly having mixed emotion between his convictions and pragmatism cares more about himself than the club ? Ok...
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Let me amend that, maybe he cared more about his brother then the club, either way his opinions regarding MUFC are now irrelevant to me.
I'm not saying he wasn't a solid RB. His service on the pitch is unquestioned.

His commentary off the pitch is atrocious.
 
ravi2 said:
I think I you are in the minority because most folks I know cannot wait for changes that move the club in a positive direction, hiring LVG was the biggest positive change we could have made and our most important signing of the summer.
With him and Woodie, who now clearly prioritizes transfers as much as he does sponsors, I feel as though our chances for a title run are realistic :)
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I agree, but I thought we were talking about Gary Neville when he did those interviews back in April/May. For him probably it was hard to suddenly change his mindset regarding how United played for years. It's the same with the locals here now. We're still getting used to this new, positive, approach from LvG. As the season goes on, I think Nev will be more open towards United now as they've now took the step in a whole new direction of employing a foreign coach. Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from? Let us know if you're, or aren't.
 
Midnight1811 said:
I agree, but I thought we were talking about Gary Neville when he did those interviews back in April/May. For him probably it was hard to suddenly change his mindset regarding how United played for years. It's the same with the locals here now. We're still getting used to this new, positive, approach from LvG. As the season goes on, I think Nev will be more open towards United now as they've now took the step in a whole new direction of employing a foreign coach. Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from? Let us know if you're, or aren't.
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I understand and I respect your views my friend, change surely isn't easy sometimes but it's necessary :)
 
ravi2 said:
Let me amend that, maybe he cared more about his brother then the club, either way his opinions regarding MUFC are now irrelevant to me.
I'm not saying he wasn't a solid RB. His service on the pitch is unquestioned.

His commentary off the pitch is atrocious.
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Fair enough mate. You're entitled to that opinion but IMO it really isn't. You look at Gary breakdown teams' tactics and general style of play, and he's just so astute - one of the best around. He does have some problem commenting on United admittedly but it seems to be a case of him being torn between loyalty towards the club and its traditional values (that he was brought up with as a kid) and brute objectivity. Maybe he saw a bit of Fergie's early days in Moyes who knows ? You can't really blame the man for that.
 
Invictus said:
Fair enough mate. You're entitled to that opinion but IMO it really isn't. You look at Gary breakdown teams' tactics and general style of play, and he's just so astute - one of the best around. He does have some problem commenting on United admittedly but it seems to be a case of him being torn between loyalty towards the club and its traditional values (that he was brought up with as a kid) and brute objectivity. Maybe he saw a bit of Fergie's early days in Moyes who knows ? You can't really blame the man for that.
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You are right, his commentary on football excluding Manchester United is actually good.
Hopefully after we win the title this season, he will come around
 
What do you lot think of Scholes appearance as a pundit when we played City? At the time, he was certainly blunt, but honest. No beating around the bush. I don't think it was an attack on Moyes himself, just the way things happened at the time.

Despite what he said about Moyes, he still stands by his decision of him needing more time, but that's football.
 
Midnight1811 said:
What do you lot think of Scholes appearance as a pundit when we played City? At the time, he was certainly blunt, but honest. No beating around the bush. I don't think it was an attack on Moyes himself, just the way things happened at the time.

Despite what he said about Moyes, he still stands by his decision of him needing more time, but that's football.
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I'd rather a straight talking pundit over those who shy away for being critical.
 
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