Paul Pogba

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Name Changed said:
Yes. Hence my original post (that you keep giving out about) that we are trying to get him to sign on the cheap. We always, every club always try to get players for as cheap as possible.
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The "on the cheap" comment first game from some "ITK" eejit on twitter, cross-posted by RedRichio. Read my edit above for why I object to it.
 
Oh and for the record, the twitter comment from the fat feck agent was the result of some to and fro between him and one of the newbies, @bardstein.

EDIT; and no, he's not the ITK eejit referred to in my previous post!
 
noodlehair said:
It works the same as anything else. If you get offered substantially more money to do the same job elsewhere, and your current employer isn't interested in matching it, you're going to bugger off.

Being Manchester United doesn't entitle the club to offer players below what they can get elsewhere and just expect them to sign on because "we're Manchester United". It doesn't work like that. Especially not when it's with someone you lured away from their club with the promise of more money in the first place.

It doesn't matter if it's Paul Pogba or Wayne Rooney. The principle is the same. There's a going rate for players and you either choose to keep up with it or you lose out. Trying to blame the players when you choose the later is arrogant...how many players would be allowed to walk out the door before the club woke up?

If we can't afford the going rate then that's just tough titties for us, but if we're trying to play some kind of game with this, then we're being stupid in the extreme.
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but you are coming out with some outrageous statements, in your original post I replied to you seem to suggest we should be paying him the same kind of money we pay Ji-Sung Park? I mean WTF one as been playing for the 1st team for about 6 years the other has played about 2 hours football.And it is not the same as any other job it's very different it's about whats best for your career, if you get a job in a call centre at 18 you will make more money in the short term than going uni on getting a apprenticeship it doesn't mean your going to be better off in 5 years time. If you really believe Pogba would be better off at Juventus than Man United because they are offering a few grand a week more now well your entitled to your opinion but I think he would be making a massive mistake.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The "on the cheap" comment first game from some "ITK" eejit on twitter, cross-posted by RedRichio. Read my edit above for why I object to it.
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I didn't read any of the other stuff, nor did I read anything on Twitter. It was my post you commented on and highlighted, so that's why I responded to you. I don't read these people and their bullshit comments on twitter.
 
Name Changed said:
Yes. Hence my original post (that you keep giving out about) that we are trying to get him to sign on the cheap. We always, every club always try to get players for as cheap as possible.
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The cheapest possible doesn't mean 'on the cheap'.

You could say Madrid signed Ronaldo for the cheapest possible amount because United wouldn't go under that evaluation.

You'd never say he was signed on the cheap though.

The cheapest possible for United in this case could still be quite a lot.

Do you think there's a wage United shouldn't go over in offering Paul Pogba a contract?
 
Moonwalker said:
The cheapest possible doesn't mean 'on the cheap'.

You could say Madrid signed Ronaldo for the cheapest possible amount because United wouldn't go under that evaluation.

You'd never say he was signed on the cheap though.

The cheapest possible for United in this case could still be quite a lot.

Do you think there's a wage United shouldn't go over in offering Paul Pogba a contract?
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I don't know what the most we should offer is.

I don't necessarily believe that United have to match or beat Juve's offer to get Pogba to sign though.
 
I can't really understand why Pogba would think he would get more playing time at Juventus at his age but if he truly believes that then so be it, even though he is tantalizingly close to becoming a first team semi regular for us. By the sounds of it money isn't really the issue here (although I'm sure his agent will be thinking of his fees should Pogba move)

The thing that kind of irks me is wondering whether this could have all been avoided had we offered the contract a year ago before he had rose to relative prominence. As his contract is so short we are caught between a rock and a hard place
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What's Juve's recent record like at bringing kids through from their reserves/youth team?
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They dont have a great recent record imho

From Wiki:

In the past decade, the Youth Sector has developed talented individuals like Antonio Nocerino, Sebastian Giovinco, Claudio Marchisio,[14] Paolo De Ceglie,[15] Antonio Mirante and Matteo Paro, all of whom are playing or have played for top flight clubs.[16][17] All were former youth internationals and Nocerino, Marchisio and Giovinco have been capped at the senior level.
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Name Changed said:
I don't know what the most we should offer is.

I don't necessarily believe that United have to match or beat Juve's offer to get Pogba to sign though.
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Not asking you to come up with an exact figure, I'm just saying do you think there should be one? United think he's worth amount x, and are not willing to go over that.

Or, do you think the salary offered should be infinitely increased until they're sure it's bigger than what any other club is giving?
 
Widnes said:
but you are coming out with some outrageous statements, in your original post I replied to you seem to suggest we should be paying him the same kind of money we pay Ji-Sung Park? I mean WTF one as been playing for the 1st team for about 6 years the other has played about 2 hours football.And it is not the same as any other job it's very different it's about whats best for your career, if you get a job in a call centre at 18 you will make more money in the short term than going uni on getting a apprenticeship it doesn't mean your going to be better off in 5 years time. If you really believe Pogba would be better off at Juventus than Man United because they are offering a few grand a week more now well your entitled to your opinion but I think he would be making a massive mistake.
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That's not really what I was saying.

What's more stupid? ...paying a young central midfielder the same or similar to what he's offered to play elsewhere, or paying a 30 year old wide player twice as much to play in central midfield, in a role the young central midfielder is almost certainly already better in?

and you're right, football isn't like most other careers...you don't have to go to University to make the most out of your career. You just have to be good, work hard, and get the most you can out of it.

There's little point staying at a club who wont pay you as much as what other clubs will, even when the offers are on the table...how do you know they wont do the same in five years time? How do you know they wont do the same with other players? How do you know they'll still be competing at the same level in 5/10 years time if they're not even willing to compete with other clubs for your services? If Pogba or his agent are sensible these are actually questions they'd be well within their rights to be asking.

and aside frm all that, why shouldn't you hold out for the best offer you can get when the club dallied over offering you any kind of deal at all, and you know you've got better deals to fall back on from other big clubs anyway?

It's all speculative, but only a moron would cave in and sign a £15,000 a week contract when they know they can get £30,000 a week somewhere else. Even if you're intending to stay you'd push it for as long as you possibly could.

People really do have their heads in the sand when it comes to these things. Sure, we'd all play for United for relative peanuts, but that's because none of us are very good at football.
 
Widnes said:
And it is not the same as any other job it's very different it's about whats best for your career, if you get a job in a call centre at 18 you will make more money in the short term than going uni on getting a apprenticeship it doesn't mean your going to be better off in 5 years time. If you really believe Pogba would be better off at Juventus than Man United because they are offering a few grand a week more now well your entitled to your opinion but I think he would be making a massive mistake.
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Not necessarily... I work in a call centre and have done for 6 years since I was 17, I earn more money than my mates who have finished uni.

It all depends on the individual. Players aren't just thinking about their career, they are thinking about their life. You pick a job where you enjoy your job, you enjoy the pay, you enjoy your surroundings, you enjoy your life. You don't sacrifice a lot of what you want to be happy, just to make some other people happy that you did what they wanted you to do.

Who even knows what's going on with Pogba? Nobody. For all he's thinking, he's looking forward to years in Manchester in the piss wet rain on a lower wage without being in the first team as much as he'd like, to a sunny country with a higher wage, where he can play all the time.

Or, he could be thinking that he wants to stay at United, that he loves the club, the Manchester lifestyle, the wage he's being offered, and is about to sign.

Or, this could all be paper talk bullshit and this could be a none issue.

The club, isn't the be all and end all of a players decision about where he wants to play. There are loads of other factors, and we don't even know a small bit of what's going on with him right now.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
They're both completely unsubstantiated, if that's what you mean.
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Pogue, I don't give a shit whether you believe me or not. I feel that the source is reliable. I've passed it on, as I did with fletcher's illness. If you want to spend all day arguing over it fine, but is it just possible that someone might know more about something than you?
 
RedRichio said:
Pogue, I don't give a shit whether you believe me or not. I feel that the source is reliable. I've passed it on, as I did with fletcher's illness. If you want to spend all day arguing over it fine, but is it just possible that someone might know more about something than you?
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I think you need to read the rest of the thread. Including comments from someone a damn sight better informed than your twitter buddy. Pogba's agent.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think you need to read the rest of the thread. Including comments from someone a damn sight better informed than your twitter buddy. Pogba's agent.
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Is this the same agent that everyone thinks is full of shit and the scum of the earth?

As far as I can make out, since the ljanic thread you've spent almost every day arguing that black is white on here. In light of the fact that you know everything I suggest we just ban everyone but you and you can just give us all the truth according to pogue every day.

And for the record it's exactly as I said. He wants to stay but is being offered less than he feels he's worth and quite a lot less than juve are offering. He is concerned about how much game time he will get here and feels undervalued. And his agent wants him to move because united won't pay him a renewal fee and is chipping at him every day. He's a good kid, 18 and impressionable, as we all were at that age. He genuinely doesn't know what to do, as fergie said.
 
Ben Hibbs weighs in:

At Manchester United there is a resolutely uncompromising attitude toward players not completely committed to the cause, not wholly buying into what Manchester United is about – it is a trait evident among fans and unmistakable in Sir Alex Ferguson. Wayne Rooney’s contract dillydallying in October 2010 was a case in point; unquestionably the team’s star player, its talisman, yet from fans’ reactions there would have been no qualms in cutting ties had Rooney not reneged on his views of commitment.

Players earn present-day adulation, even long-term reverence and nostalgic veneration, but loyalty lies infinitely with the team. The notion that no player is bigger than the club is accepted unquestioningly at Old Trafford, but it cannot be so easily applied to every club, even if tribalism is a unifier for all football fans. It seems unlikely that United would, for example, tolerate the current situation at Manchester City, with Carlos Tevez’s acrimonious departure and return. Compare that to the example of Rooney if you will, but you’ll find United fans that still hold the player in stand-offish esteem, even if in that particular scenario the player claims that it was the club’s progress to which he had doubts and sought assurances.

To the present day and Paul Pogba, United’s outstanding French teenage midfielder, who appears in a similar state of flux over his future at Old Trafford. It’s difficult to know exactly what to believe of the ins and outs of contractual discussions these days as both sides present their case in the most favourable terms, but it’s relatively safe to assume the following: United want Pogba to show devotion to the club, while the player, presumably frustrated at limited first-team action and with a new agent seeking the best possible deal for his client, is playing cat and mouse.

Pogba may well have a point about on-field opportunities, but few people in football know more than Ferguson about bringing young players through at a top club – a far more complicated, delicate and pressurised situation than most people ever give credit for.

It is, however, a fiercely competitive market for young players today as clubs recognise value in cheaper acquisitions with a greater shelf-life. That trend has, in turn, instituted a mini-imitation of the market for established players: if sufficient pay and first-team opportunities are not attained then the player is off. And quickly. It’s easier to retain local players with emotional and geographical ties, but for players from abroad, as is the case with Pogba who left French club Le Havre for United at 16, those bonds are more difficult to form, and much easier to break.

The benefits of developing your own young players, schooled in the demands of being a Manchester United player, with all the expectation and pressure that entails, are obvious. Players serve the club for a greater length of time, they acquire loyalty and aid the long-term success of the club, lessening the extent of football’s cyclical transitions. That has been one of Ferguson’s true successes: his foresight for regeneration.

But here is the paradox for United: the commitment to youth development and the embracing of the idea – through means or principle, everyone has their view – that buying ready-made talent provides less value as an asset, financially and in footballing worth, means that your youth projects have to work. The recent avoidance of spending vast sums on a renowned central midfielder was undoubtedly founded on the emerging talents already at the club: Ravel Morrison, Paul Pogba, Tom Cleverley and, perhaps at a stretch more recently, Davide Petrucci. The latter, a classy, talented Italian midfielder, suffered awful injury problems, so there is perhaps more hope than expectation placed on him. But you might argue that, of those four, Morrison and Pogba were the premier prospects, even with the excellent strides Cleverley has made at a professional level.

If United are to lose Morrison – voluntarily and, perhaps, necessarily – and Pogba in the same season, that is a significant dent to the team’s future plans. Ferguson does not deal in half measures, so he is unlikely to yield to the demands of young scamps. In such cases you have to admire the staunch resolve to uphold his and the club’s values. But he must be deeply frustrated at the unearthing of well-laid plans, while United fans still seek the next worthy idol.
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Nailed it.

In deep trouble as the money in the game is quickly passing us by.
 
RedRichio said:
Is this the same agent that everyone thinks is full of shit and the scum of the earth?

As far as I can make out, since the ljanic thread you've spent almost every day arguing that black is white on here. In light of the fact that you know everything I suggest we just ban everyone but you and you can just give us all the truth according to pogue every day.

And for the record it's exactly as I said. He wants to stay but is being offered less than he feels he's worth and quite a lot less than juve are offering. He is concerned about how much game time he will get here and feels undervalued. And his agent wants him to move because united won't pay him a renewal fee and is chipping at him every day. He's a good kid, 18 and impressionable, as we all were at that age. He genuinely doesn't know what to do, as fergie said.
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Admirable bit of mind-reading there. Most of it is plausible too.

Of course, none of it fits with your original assertion that the club were trying to get him to sign a new contract "on the cheap".

I should probably ignore the snidey little comments about Ljajic but I feel obliged to point out that they're as irrelevant to this discussion as they are petty.
 
What's with the Pogue bashing in this thread FFs give the guy a break, come on argue your points lads fair enough but stop the petty shite!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Admirable bit of mind-reading there. Most of it is plausible too.

Of course, none of it fits with your original assertion that the club were trying to get him to sign a new contract "on the cheap".

I should probably ignore the snidey little comments about Ljajic but I feel obliged to point out that they're as irrelevant to this discussion as they are petty.
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Umm, no it doesn't. United give young players relatively poor contracts with the promise that, if they establish themselves at the club, their terms will be significantly upgraded. It relys on player loyalty and ambition. Other clubs don't operate in the same way. Many are willing to throw big money at young kids and make promises re playing time that fergie would never give. Just as Hibbs says. At that age we often pay much less than other European giants and don't throw promises about. So, in big club terms, we get young players on the cheap on the basis that they should feel privileged to play for united.
 
RDCR07 said:
I don't think it will change anything in my opinion, as in him making the bench won't necessarily mean he is going to stay.
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If he gets any decent game time (10 mins+) I think that'll be SAF saying, "Here, stay, I give you minutes in 1st team, yaaaa."

And fwiw, I think Pogues one of the few talking proper sense in here.
 
Wow times really are changing, a thread on the Caf about a 18 year old reserve player got almost 700 000 views.
 
RDCR07 said:
The last time we had an 18 year old in our team with so much potential was Rooney/Ronaldo.
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Well he's got a long way to go. At that age Rooney had already racked up a number of games in the league and shone at the euros and was England's key player. Ronaldo was ready a hot prospect in Europe and then came here and came straight in. Pogba has been with the club for a long time now and despite all the injuries we've had in midfield fergie has never seriously considered him. Potential he may have but his current ability is seemingly not good enough yet.
 
RedRichio said:
United give young players relatively poor contracts
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Relatively poor compared to whom?

If it's relatively poor compared to what other clubs offer their own young players then that's just speculative bollocks. You're claiming to know something you couldn't possibly know, even if it was true.

If its relatively poor compared to senior players then it's just a pointless Barnum statement.
 
Maybe because they were given more chances at younger age. Smaller clubs can give young players a run of games we can't afford to. You'd have to be Giggs and even that might not be enough in today's game.
Before anyone says Rafael and Fabio, yes, we've given them chances but one thing is playing at right back, another - centre midfield.

I do think Pogba isn't ready but not playing him at all won't make him more ready faster.
 
That's where loan deals come in.

Of course, the player has to be at a level where he's good enough to be a regular starter at another club that plays at a decent level. Cleverley, Evans and Welbeck are perfect examples of how well this system works.

I trust Fergie to know when they're ready for a loan. I think the experiences of Rossi, Pique and Macheda might have convinced him to hold onto foreign youngsters that bit longer.
 
RDCR07 said:
Do you think there is a specific reason he hasn't been on loan till now?
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If Pogba had longer left on his contract I think he may have gone on loan but with his contract situation the focus has been on persuading him to stay by giving him the odd game or so and Fergie probably thought he'd benefit more from playing the odd game this season. If we hadn't got knocked out of the FA Cup, League Cup or had the number of close games in the league that we have done I think he'd have been given more game time.

League Cup: Leeds United 0 - 3 Manchester United - Pogba on bench, came on 46' (score was 0-3 before he came on)
League Cup: Aldershot 0 - 3 Manchester United - Pogba on bench, came on 60' (score was 0-3 before he came on)
Champions League: Manchester United 2 - 0 Otelul Galati - Pogba on bench, didn't come on (it was 1-0 until 86', game still in balance)
League Cup: Manchester United 1 - 2 Crystal Palace - Pogba on bench, came on 64' (score was 0-0 before he came on, 0-1 1 minute after he came on)
Premier League: Manchester United 2 - 3 Blackburn Rovers - Pogba on bench, didn't come on
Premier League: Newcastle United 3 - 0 Manchester United - Pogba on bench, didn't come on
Premier League: Manchester United 3 - 0 Bolton Wanderers - Pogba on bench, didn't come on
FA Cup: Liverpool 2 - 1 Manchester United - Pogba on bench, didn't come on
Premier League: Manchester United 2 - 0 Stoke City - Pogba on bench, came on 72'
Premier League: Chelsea 3 - 3 Manchester United - Pogba on bench, didn't come on
Premier League: Manchester United 2 - 1 Liverpool - Pogba on bench, didn't come on
Europa League: Ajax 0 - 2 Manchester United - Pogba on bench, didn't come on

They're all the games he has been on the bench for. He's played in four but stayed on the bench in eight. Nearly all of those eight were in the balance till the end (or near the end) of the match.
 
RDCR07 said:
The last time we had an 18 year old in our team with so much potential was Rooney/Ronaldo.
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Nonsense. At the same age Rooney and Ronaldo had done a had done a bit more. You may have watched Pogba in the reserves, and yes he looks good., but did you ever see Gibson and Possebon stroll around bossing reserve games?

This thread is like Sky News, no new info yet the story stays topical.
 
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