Where have you got this idea that defensive midfielders are restrained? There job is to go and cause mayhem. One of the two other midfielders would have to cover for him when he goes into full headcase mode of course, but Anderson and Cleverley are certainly capable of that between them.
Phil Jones in midfield revisited
- Thread starter Brwned
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Where have you got this idea that defensive midfielders are restrained? There job is to go and cause mayhem. One of the two other midfielders would have to cover for him when he goes into full headcase mode of course, but Anderson and Cleverley are certainly capable of that between them.
I think that's his problem as much as anything. Anderson gets a lot wrong but he's lightning quick-minded. Jones is ponderous.
I didn't say he had no discipline, but that's definitely an issue in his young age. He's rash, as you said, he does make the wrong decisions and needlessly burst forward. The defensive midfielder role you're suggesting requires a lot of discipline, it's basically a case of never making forward runs, which Jones absolutely loves doing.
Anyway, if he could play in that role, why the hell has Sir Alex never used him there? Or maybe he has used him there, but we haven't actually known that cause he's constantly bombing forward.
DM are restrained, they have to be positionally conservative, otherwise they're just midfielders! You watch Carrick every week so it should be pretty evident.
I can't help but think of what SAF was able to do with a young Darren Fletcher, giving him games out of position for years and ultimately helping him to become a fantastic midfielder at his best.
There can't be much money in the 'second guessing Sir Alex' business.
There can't be much money in the 'second guessing Sir Alex' business.
The only time I have seen Jones excel in the midfield was when he played as a box to box player with Carrick sitting back and shielding the defense. I don't know where this idea that he can be solid DM arises from.
Has he played in that position? No. Has he shown attributes that he can be good there? No. Can he run a game? No. Can he be a DM? Yes as per Redcafe.
Has he played in that position? No. Has he shown attributes that he can be good there? No. Can he run a game? No. Can he be a DM? Yes as per Redcafe.
That's not the defensive midfielder role I'm advocating for him. Obviously.
The only times he's played in a midfield he's always been the most advanced one, so we can rule that theory out.
Why has SAF not played him there? Well, we have hardly played that variation of 433/451 the past few years, so the opportunity hasn't arisen. In fact I can't really think of one example of it in the past couple seasons. We've switched to playing 4411/4231. For Jones to play in this role, SAF would have to switch formations. I'll give him a ring now and see if he's planning on giving it a run out anytime soon.
Carrick is not the only type of DM. I listed several other examples in a previous post. Do you need me to repeat them?
Brwned explained that none of those names were the deep lying DM, which is the position we're talking about Jones playing is it not?
They were deep-lying, at least on occasion. Brwned pointed out that they often had a ball player alongside them (or deeper) in order to distribute and start attacks. I think it'd work fine with a CM or two dropping deep to help distribute and cover when the DM goes into headcase mode.
Anyway, it's only an idea. I'm off to bed.
What are you then? Surely a defensive midfielders primary job is to shield the defense. Makelele practically invented the role and that's exactly what he did. Do you ever see Busquets bombing forward for Barcelona? Gattuso was a more gung-ho defensive midfielder but he rarely bursted forward either.
Do you genuinely think Jones has the discipline in him to sit back like these players do? I don't.
And why do you think that is? Could it be due to the fact that we don't actually have a defensive midfielder, and Sir Alex doesn't see Jones as that sort of player maybe?
Surely there's a reason we've had to use 4-4-2 so much in recent times, and I doubt it's cause SAF has had a change of heart and decided that the system that used to do us so well in Europe and in big games isn't the right way to go anymore, it's because we do not have the personnel available to incorporate it anymore, and Jones definitely isn't the player to bring it back.
I don't think he is a midfielder, at all, in any way, he lacks far too much for it, and using him in a midfield role would simply be a testament to how weak our midfield currently is.
Jones can play CB without running up the field and into the opposition box, I'm not so sure it's a matter of discipline. It seems to me that Jones hasn't been asked to play that 'holding' role for us yet. He played in that role for Blackburn, in fact the vast majority of his games there were as a holding midfielder, and he drew strong plaudits for those performances.
You must be watching a different player than me.
Besides, it's different playing CB and midfield, you play far deeper anyway so naturally running the entire length of the pitch isn't going to come into your head as often, as opposed to if you're already half way up it.
Well done, gooDevil!
It should be pretty obvious by now that Jones is constitutionally equipped, for the long, to play only two positions -- CB and DCM. He can do spot duty for us at RB but I trust everyone here will agree that Rafael is built for that position.
Jones actually did a decent job as a holding mid for Blackburn, but the argument can be made that Blackburn are a different animal than United. Fine, but the potential for a decent holding mid is easily seen. Whether Fergie gives him the opportunity and, if so, whether he runs with remains to be seen. An opportunity arises v City to send Jones out there for several reasons:
Our CBs have been horrid this season (Fergie concurs) and they need some help. Fergie will go with Evans and either Rio or Smalling (probably Rio) and they're going to need some protecting cover to deal with a solid City midfield. Carrick reads the game brilliantly, but he's not exactly the most athletic midfielder Fergie has ever had. Jones is more athletic and is a natural defender, but he's still young. Pairing Carrick and Jones gives you enough offensively and defensively to manage with Yaya Toure and David Silva. Ando would get the nod over Jones, but he's out. Fletcher of 08 would get the nod over Jones but the Fletcher of 08 is not available yet. You could go with Scholes, but odds are that would spell trouble for us defensively -- and I don't like the idea of giving up goals to City.
On the other hand, maybe Jones has no natural position that's good enough to be a regular starter for United. Maybe he's the next John O'Shea. The only way we'll find these things out is if we play the man and see what he can do. He's shown enough already last season that he's earned some starts this season.
Jones could easily play alongside Carrick. Driving forward as well as giving our back 4 added protection! The boy is a top player be it midfield or defence he is quality!
No one said he can't do it, but his technique isn't good enough to play there for us before some other player, we have at least five or six better options there, plus players like Petrucci could probably do better job there.
Jones looks better already playing RB again.
Yeah as opposed to attacking midfield, which is a position he's never going to excel in. Completely different to playing centre mid. You can't read anything into the Reading game, was just a bizzare substitution and he was playing way too advanced.
I would like to see Jones at CB
Great performance. One of the few players who looked arsed!
Fullback is a good option for him because theres lots of space for him to run into. A lot less in the middle
Jones>Wes Brown
Put in a good shift at rightback. His best performances for us have always come from that spot. Eventually will probably be a centreback but his versatility is a real plus.
Think he's going to get the nod for the derby ahead of Rafael.
Excellent today!
Still get nervous with his tackling in the area.
Still get nervous with his tackling in the area.
Can't take sentences like that seriously anymore.Our wingers could learn a thing or two on crossing from him, he really shows crossing it's not that difficult at all.
If Valencia is not fit on Sunday then we should play Jones at right back and Rafael on the right wing.
He should get a run in midfield now. The alternative is Scholes, Giggs or Fletcher, which is no alternative at all. When everyone was out last December he and Carrick performed very well together, so we should let them have another run.
Was impressed by his crossing tonight, last year although he was capable of some great balls he often squandered quite a lot. Would be a welcome addition to his game.
I reckon he will end up there. The only reason he hasnt been playing there is because that isnt how United play at the moment, or ever.
He played as a defensive midfielder for Blackburn more often than not, and he wasn't too shabby.
Yeah but he was more of a 5th centreback than a holder, think the role would be quite different for united as we wouldn't face the same pressure as Blackburn. Think he could do alright in the middle just not in an attacking role. Although I do think he has a tendency to try and do too much which against the better teams wouldn't work.
Why has his passing and positioning become so amazingly bad? He literally has no passing ability at all at the moment. He just kicks the ball somewhere and sometimes it happens to hit someone or a team mate gets to it first.
Why do people want him in midfield while this is the case? It'd be an absolute fecking disaster.
Why do people want him in midfield while this is the case? It'd be an absolute fecking disaster.
At this point I'd play him on Sunday in center mid. At least he can run. I guess we could have Scholes and Carrick sitting deep with Jones doing all of the leg work.
To be fair I want him in the bottom of a 4 man midfield. I think he'd survive that.
A Scholes, Carrick and Jones midfield
That's fecking dire mate.
Well Anderson and Cleverley are injured, both of which I would have started if it was up to me and they were fit. What else are we supposed to do?
