How good is our squad, really?

[luckyspurs]

Is that right? In the last two seasons alone? Fair enough. I still think they've spent way better than we have. When you go on a spree like that you want to end up with at least one or two in the squad who you think have the potential to go on to be one the best players on the planet.

Where is our Hazard, Aguero or Silva?

Individual superstars aside, a spree like that should also be with a view to "two top players in every position" paradigm that Mourinho introduced when he first spent Roman's millions. How many positions in our best XI would that apply to right now?

Chelsea have spent that much, but sold £150m too.

Costa £30m
Willian £30m
Fabregas £25m
Matic £20m
Schurrle £20m

David Luiz £40m
Mata £40m
Lukaku £30m
De Bruyne £20m

Went from

Torres
Hazard, Mata, Oscar
Ramires, Lampard

to

Costa
Hazard, Oscar, Willian
Fabregas, Matic

for £50m net spend. Not far behind Southampton in terms of smart spending in recent months.

Can do nothing but credit it. Very smart business.

 

[thegregster]

Chelsea have spent that much, but sold £150m too.

Costa £30m
Willian £30m
Fabregas £25m
Matic £20m
Schurrle £20m

David Luiz £40m
Mata £40m
Lukaku £30m
De Bruyne £20m

That's true but its not as if they got Luiz,Mata,Lukaku,De Bruyne for free in the first place.

 

[luckyspurs]

That's true but its not as if they got Luiz,Mata,Lukaku,De Bruyne for free in the first place.

About £70m and Matic wasn't it? Quite chunky given how young a lot of those players were.

They've got way more canny in recent seasons. As teams often do when they have to tighten their belts.

The more money you spend, the more you waste, seems to be the case. Diminishing returns once you get past about £70m a summer.

 

[bishblaize]

To put it in context City have spent £80M, £100M, £54M, £76M, £154M, £125M & £127M over the last 7 seasons. That's the scale of spending we're looking at.

Ours has been £145M, £67M, £63M, £52M, £27M, £21M, £35M.

Obviously that's gross not net, though since that includes the Ronaldo sale I'd guess we've earned as much as them.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Chelsea have spent that much, but sold £150m too.

Costa £30m
Willian £30m
Fabregas £25m
Matic £20m
Schurrle £20m

David Luiz £40m
Mata £40m
Lukaku £30m
De Bruyne £20m

Went from

Torres
Hazard, Mata, Oscar
Ramires, Lampard

to

Costa
Hazard, Oscar, Willian
Fabregas, Matic

for £50m net spend. Not far behind Southampton in terms of smart spending in recent months.

Can do nothing but credit it. Very smart business.

Then blame that as bad judgement on our part, could you imagine Chelsea buying Obertan/Dong/Manucho/Djemba Djemba etc. No, neither can I. I don't have a problem with who we have bought this season at all. It's the dealing SAF/Gill made tbh. I think Ed, for all his criticism might actually have a better idea of who is actually value for money in the long run. We bought some right duds over the years under Fergie and that lack of investment is now causing problems, buying young players to sell on for loads. Except you have a really good scouting system to do that. I would say ours is lacking in certain areas.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

To put it in context City have spent £80M, £100M, £54M, £76M, £154M, £125M & £127M over the last 7 seasons. That's the scale of spending we're looking at.

Ours has been £145M, £67M, £63M, £52M, £27M, £21M, £35M.

Obviously that's gross not net, though since that includes the Ronaldo sale I'd guess we've earned as much as them.

The reinvestment there probably shows where we have sat on our hands at times, that everything was fine. When now it obviously wasn't.

 

[Pexbo]

Then blame that as bad judgement on our part, could you imagine Chelsea buying Obertan/Dong/Manucho/Djemba Djemba etc. No, neither can I. I don't have a problem with who we have bought this season at all. It's the dealing SAF/Gill made tbh. I think Ed, for all his criticism might actually have a better idea of who is actually value for money in the long run. We bought some right duds over the years under Fergie and that lack of investment is now causing problems, buying young players to sell on for loads. Except you have a really good scouting system to do that. I would say ours is lacking in certain areas.

Exactly. I fail to see how Van Gaal and Woodward can be blamed for our net spend when half the players that left us retired or were in their 30's after being brilliant servants and left for virtually nothing. The other half were the likes of Bebe, Macheda, Kagawa, Buttner, Fabio and a load of kids.

Chelsea's net spend was good this year because they saw the FFP coming and stocked up on talent that they will release as and when it suits. Lukaku and De Bryune for example, they signed Lukaku for £17m and De Bryune for £7m and they played a grand total of 13 games between the two of them. Yet they're being included in figures that knock £50m off Chelsea's net spend this year. Not to mention the £16m Chelsea paid in agents fees last year, £10m more than United.

They're playing the FFP like a fiddle, their books completely flatter to deceive. Don't even get me started on that ridiculous fee for David Luiz.

 

[bishblaize]

Chelsea have spent that much, but sold £150m too.

Costa £30m
Willian £30m
Fabregas £25m
Matic £20m
Schurrle £20m

David Luiz £40m
Mata £40m
Lukaku £30m
De Bruyne £20m

Went from

Torres
Hazard, Mata, Oscar
Ramires, Lampard

to

Costa
Hazard, Oscar, Willian
Fabregas, Matic

for £50m net spend. Not far behind Southampton in terms of smart spending in recent months.

Can do nothing but credit it. Very smart business.

Firstly, credit to Mou for doing it. How many times have Fergie and Wenger failed to address blindingly obvious needs in their teams?

But it does kind of feel like stepping up to a pool table and finding all the balls racked up ready to be put away. It didnt need a change in style of play, or formation, just a couple of straight swaps. Plus he had saleable assets to make it happen, Costa had a buyout clause and no-one was after Fabregas.

It should also be pointed out too that he didn't make these changes in his first summer. Almost all of this happened over a 12 month period. And he started with a team that finished 3rd and had just won the Europa Cup. So hardly the position LVG finds himself in.

 

[kouroux]

Firstly, credit to Mou for doing it. How many times have Fergie and Wenger failed to address blindingly obvious needs in their teams?

But it does kind of feel like stepping up to a pool table and finding all the balls racked up ready to be put away. It didnt need a change in style of play, or formation, just a couple of straight swaps. Plus he had saleable assets to make it happen, Costa had a buyout clause and no-one was after Fabregas.

It should also be pointed out too that he didn't make these changes in his first summer. Almost all of this happened over a 12 month period. And he started with a team that finished 3rd and had just won the Europa Cup. So hardly the position LVG finds himself in.

Perfect conditions indeed for Mourinho to make those smart choices (specially having a stupid club like PSG over paying so much for Luiz). They were lucky that teams were desperate to sign their players.

 

[Pexbo]

It's not about knocking down the signings but do you feel, when you look at our squad, that we are as close to City and Chelsea as we we should be after 220 millions of spending over 18 months?

I hope most of the new guys will end up being decent signings but I'm absolutely convinced that we could have gotten more out of all that money. Just look at what Chelsea did this summer for instance.

But I don't think it's unfair to have doubts over Falcao, who looks a shadow of his old self, or Herrera who can hardly get a game, or Rojo who, for me, looks like a very ordinary defender, no better than what we already had.

When I look at our squad how close are we to Chelsea or City?

Honestly? I think our squad is much better placed for future success than City's is. We're very much at the start of a cycle while they are past their peak (albeit only just) and need investment for the future. With no investment I'd say that we'd be overtaking them some point near the end of next season.

As far as the Chelsea comparison goes, I think you have to remember that we finished our last cycle in 2013 and from that Title winning squad the following left:

Giggs, Ferdinand, Evra, Vidic, Kagawa, Nani, Hernandez, Cleverley, Welbeck, Kagawa


Now that's not to say that I think any of them would be of any use to us now, it's just to highlight that of the 23 players to pick up a league winners medal in 2013, nearly half of them have left the club.

That should give you some sort of idea of where this squad is in terms of transition. The majority of those players left this summer and the majority of their replacements were signed this summer and have had an injury hit first 5 months in a new league, under a new manager who is managing in this league for the first time in a new team that has probably 3 first team players you could describe as "senior players".

When Mourinho came in in 2013 he took over a team that had just come 3rd after spending over £90 million the previous season, he continued that spending with another £110m over the course of his first season before finishing his squad off in the summer with another another £91m.

So to compare us with Chelsea who didn't have a squad torn apart by retirements, elderly leavers and the axe falling on average players kept around by the previous management is really unfair. Not to mention the fecking injuries.

Mourinho spent the whole of last season whinging about his striking options. They were impotent last season because he failed to address that issue sufficely that summer. We're at a similar stage in terms of development as they were last year and I think similar to them, should we sign 3 key players we go from Top 4 to challenging for the title.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Perfect conditions indeed for Mourinho to make those smart choices (specially having a stupid club like PSG over paying so much for Luiz). They were lucky that teams were desperate to sign their players.

Yeah you really have to give credit to Mourinho, his Inter and Real transfers also worked out perfectly for those clubs. And we can talk about 'the team' and 'philosophy' and 'making a team better' all day long, but in the end it's the summer window that's going to decide wether we compete next year or not.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

As far as the Chelsea comparison goes, I think you have to remember that we finished our last cycle in 2013 and from that Title winning squad the following left:

Giggs, Ferdinand, Evra, Vidic, Kagawa, Nani, Hernandez, Cleverley, Welbeck, Kagawa

Now that's not to say that I think any of them would be of any use to us now, it's just to highlight that of the 23 players to pick up a league winners medal in 2013, nearly half of them have left the club.

That should give you some sort of idea of where this squad is in terms of transition. The majority of those players left this summer and the majority of their replacements were signed this summer and have had an injury hit first 5 months in a new league, under a new manager who is managing in this league for the first time in a new team that has probably 3 first team players you could describe as "senior players".

That's 10 players out. Name the 10 players lined up to replace them? Especially, who is the next Vidic and Ferdinand? Incredibly difficult shoes to fill and they remain empty IMO.

Regarding the "majority" signed this summer, who are you talking about? Herrera, Shaw, Di Maria, Rojo and Blind. I make that five players. Out of 10. Falcao too, if we're being optimistic. Although there's every chance he'll be gone by next season. I also think it's increasingly obvious Van Gaal doesn't fancy Hererra at all, so he'll need replacing too.

You're spot on about the size of the overhaul needed to our squad since we last won the league but wildly optimistic regarding how far along we are in that process. We're absolutely miles away from the situation Chelsea found themselves in when Mourinho returned to London.

 

[finneh]

When I look at our squad how close are we to Chelsea or City?

Honestly? I think our squad is much better placed for future success than City's is. We're very much at the start of a cycle while they are past their peak (albeit only just) and need investment for the future. With no investment I'd say that we'd be overtaking them some point near the end of next season.

As far as the Chelsea comparison goes, I think you have to remember that we finished our last cycle in 2013 and from that Title winning squad the following left:

Giggs, Ferdinand, Evra, Vidic, Kagawa, Nani, Hernandez, Cleverley, Welbeck, Kagawa


Now that's not to say that I think any of them would be of any use to us now, it's just to highlight that of the 23 players to pick up a league winners medal in 2013, nearly half of them have left the club.

That should give you some sort of idea of where this squad is in terms of transition. The majority of those players left this summer and the majority of their replacements were signed this summer and have had an injury hit first 5 months in a new league, under a new manager who is managing in this league for the first time in a new team that has probably 3 first team players you could describe as "senior players".

When Mourinho came in in 2013 he took over a team that had just come 3rd after spending over £90 million the previous season, he continued that spending with another £110m over the course of his first season before finishing his squad off in the summer with another another £91m.

So to compare us with Chelsea who didn't have a squad torn apart by retirements, elderly leavers and the axe falling on average players kept around by the previous management is really unfair. Not to mention the fecking injuries.

Mourinho spent the whole of last season whinging about his striking options. They were impotent last season because he failed to address that issue sufficely that summer. We're at a similar stage in terms of development as they were last year and I think similar to them, should we sign 3 key players we go from Top 4 to challenging for the title.

Good post.

I think City over the next 5 years will start to see how difficult it is to compete for more than 5 years at a time. I said in a post yesterday Fergie leaving was compounded by the fact that the team he had built was coming to their end also. It's a double edged sword, Fergie would never leave with his team coming up to their pinnacle as he wouldn't get to experience the fruits of his labour and likewise wouldn't have spent £200-250m in his last season or 2 as I'm sure he'd want his successor to have the funds to build a team for themselves.

We're just going through a period similar to 2003 - 2006, but with the added problem of another quality team in City to compete with and new managers coming in.

 

[luckyspurs]

So to compare us with Chelsea who didn't have a squad torn apart by retirements, elderly leavers and the axe falling on average players kept around by the previous management is really unfair. Not to mention the fecking injuries.

Disagree with this. What are Cole, Lampard, Ferreira, Malouda, Benayoun, Essien, Torres, Drogba and to a lesser extent as they're still there Terry and Cech, if not elderly leavers?

 

[Pexbo]

That's 10 players out. Name the 10 players lined up to replace them?

Regarding the "majority" signed this summer, who are you talking about? Herrera, Shaw, Di Maria, Rojo and Blind. I make that five players. Out of 10. Falcao too, if we're being optimistic. Although there's a very significant chance he'll be gone by next season. I also think it's

You're spot on about the size of the overhaul needed to our squad since we last won the league but wildly optimistic regarding how far along we are in that process. We're absolutely miles away from the situation Chelsea found themselves in when Mourinho returned to London.

Are you talking about man for man replacements or just numbers?

I'd say at centreback, Vidic and Ferdinand already had Smalling, Evans and Jones earmarked for the role with Rojo brought in too. Van Gaal would have been called far too hasty if he brought in two top quality centrebacks and let those three rot on the bench and it was for him to find out over the course of this season who he can actually trust.

As far as Giggs goes, Di Maria is probably the replacement there, an upgrade too. An attacking central midfielder come left winger.

Evra - Shaw - Potential.

Hernandez - Wilson - Potential - not there yet but there's nothing wrong with developing a player.

Welbeck - Falcao

Kagawa - Mata

Cleverley - Herrera

Not to mention Blind and Fellaini.


The majority is the 6 players in the summer, plus the two in Mata and Fellaini and that's 8 in with room for more.


I think the squad is shaping up well and just needs tweaking and everyone is being far too pessimistic about its quality. I have zero doubt that we are moving in the right direction.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Are you talking about man for man replacements or just numbers?

I'd say at centreback, Vidic and Ferdinand already had Smalling, Evans and Jones earmarked for the role with Rojo brought in too. Van Gaal would have been called far too hasty if he brought in two top quality centrebacks and let those three rot on the bench and it was for him to find out over the course of this season who he can actually trust.

As far as Giggs goes, Di Maria is probably the replacement there, an upgrade too. An attacking central midfielder come left winger.

Evra - Shaw - Potential.

Hernandez - Wilson - Potential - not there yet but there's nothing wrong with developing a player.

Welbeck - Falcao

Kagawa - Mata

Cleverley - Herrera

Not to mention Blind and Fellaini.


The majority is the 6 players in the summer, plus the two in Mata and Fellaini and that's 8 in with room for more.


I think the squad is shaping up well and just needs tweaking and everyone is being far too pessimistic about its quality. I have zero doubt that we are moving in the right direction.

It is shaping up well. The new signings are definitely an upgrade and add something better to the side. I don't think the press are helping linking us to players we don't have a cat in hells chance of getting, therefore making people look down their noses at the new lads. They have come into a new regime, most from a foreign country and will need this season to find their feet.

 

[Pexbo]

Disagree with this. What are Cole, Lampard, Ferreira, Malouda, Benayoun, Essien, Torres, Drogba and to a lesser extent as they're still there Terry and Cech, if not elderly leavers?

Cole and Lampard I will grant you.

Ferreira was phased out 4 years ago.
Bennayoun played 14 times for Chelsea.
Malouda was frozen out 3 years ago.
Essien's last full season for Chelsea was 4 years ago.
Drogba is back playing for them after they spent £50m replacing him.
Torres I will grant you.
Cech still plays for them after being replaced already and he's only 32 for God sake
.....and Terry still plays for them so is completely irrelevant.

It's an entirely different situation as most of those players were replaced already 4 years ago so is completely irrelevant to the discussion about Mourinho's team.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Are you talking about man for man replacements or just numbers?

I'd say at centreback, Vidic and Ferdinand already had Smalling, Evans and Jones earmarked for the role with Rojo brought in too. Van Gaal would have been called far too hasty if he brought in two top quality centrebacks and let those three rot on the bench and it was for him to find out over the course of this season who he can actually trust.

I would be amazed if there's a future Vidic and Ferdinand in that lot. In my most wildly optimistic moments I might think one of them could reach that level. Absolutely no chance that two will.

By the way, my point is how much work is still to be done in terms of building a title winnning squad, I'm not blaming Van Gaal for what he did or didn't do in summer (although I do think we were crying out for an experienced, top class centre half and Rojo doesn't look like that player at all)

As far as Giggs goes, Di Maria is probably the replacement there, an upgrade too. An attacking central midfielder come left winger.

I'll give you that one (although I have grave doubts, based on what he's produced so far)

Evra - Shaw - Potential.

Maybe, maybe not. Will have to discover an attacking verve there's been precisely zero evidence of in his career to date if he's going to be as good as peak Paddy. And you're expecting this in the next season or two?

Hernandez - Wilson - Potential - not there yet but there's nothing wrong with developing a player.

Welbeck - Falcao

Kagawa - Mata

Cleverley - Herrera

Not to mention Blind and Fellaini.

That's all fair. Although with players like Cleverley, Kagawa and Welbeck it's not who they were/are that needs replacing it's what we thought they would become. Amongst the very best players in the league in their position (maybe Mata, if we're being generous?) . All we can say with absolute certainty is that applies to none of their replacements right now. Will it apply in the future? Hopefully but again your timeframe seems seriously optimistic.

The majority is the 6 players in the summer, plus the two in Mata and Fellaini and that's 8 in with room for more.


I think the squad is shaping up well and just needs tweaking and everyone is being far too pessimistic about its quality. I have zero doubt that we are moving in the right direction.

We might be "moving in the right direction" but we're miles short of the almost finished article that Chelsea were last season. Too many doubts about too many players. And that's if you ignore the most important doubts of all, the ones about our manager!

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I would be amazed if there's a future Vidic and Ferdinand in that lot. In my most wildly optimistic moments I might think one of them could reach that level. Absolutely no chance that two will.

By the way, my point is how much work is still to be done in terms of building a title winnning squad, I'm not blaming Van Gaal for what he did or didn't do in summer (although I do think we were crying out for an experienced, top class centre half and Rojo doesn't look like that player at all)



I'll give you that one (although I have grave doubts, based on what he's produced so far)



Maybe, maybe not. Will have to discover an attacking verve there's been precisely zero evidence of in his career to date if he's going to be as good as peak Paddy. And you're expecting this in the next season or two?



That's all fair. Although with players like Cleverley, Kagawa and Welbeck it's not who they were/are that needs replacing it's what we thought they would become. Amongst the very best players in the league in their position. All we can say with absolute certainty is that applies to none of their replacements right now. Will it apply in the future? Hopefully but again your timeframe seems seriously optimistic.




We might be "moving in the right direction" but we're miles short of the almost finished article that Chelsea were last season. Too many doubts about too many players. And that's if you ignore the most important doubts of all, the ones about our manager!

Do you think we are going to regret not swallowing our moral indignation and not getting Jose?

 

[Roboc7]

We spent £220m on players and if you look at who else we could have bought for the same or less we didn’t spend it well, too many panic buys, no coherent strategy and not enough medium and long term planning. Only Blind was signed for a fair market value and although he is a very good player I think he is another squad player (we have too many of those). I don’t really see a strong spine or starting 11 for this season and beyond and although we can argue points that no other side has 3 strikers like RVP, Rooney & Falcao it is also true that the top sides wouldn’t want 3 similar players they can’t use together who are in the latter stages of their careers and none of them are as good as Aguero, Sanchez or Costa. Too long either not replacing players or replacing them with players who are not as good has finally caught up with us.

There has to be a massive rethink in the summer and we need to look at every area apart from the goalkeepers, LVG will also have to learn some lessons and adjust to the Premier League if he is still here (if we don’t finish top 4 I think there is a good chance he will be sacked). Personally I think we could see more over spending again on players like Falcao and Strootman and we could easily spend another £100m and not address the problems we have. It is a huge job because it’s not just finding solutions to the problems we have now but Carrick, Rooney and RVP are all fading (Falcao as well) and if LVG is only going to be here for 3 years he will find it tough to challenge for the title in that time if he doesn’t get in the top 4 this season and then have a good summer transfer window

 

[bishblaize]

We're absolutely miles away from the situation Chelsea found themselves in when Mourinho returned to London.

Hmm, dunno. I still think our first team is not that far away. It of course depends on the formation etc, but a first team like the following would be a pretty formidable one

DDG
Rafael-Hummels-Smalling-Shaw
Strootman-Carrick-Blind
Reus-Rooney-ADM
​

That's 3 realistic transfers away from where we are now, no further than what Jose found at Chelsea. Not to mention it would leave us with a ludicrous bench.

Fast forward another summer and upgrade Smalling, Rafael and perhaps Rooney with whatever the muppet's choice is that year and you're heading towards CL contender territory.

Not saying we're going for those specific players, but I don't see that we're 6 or 7 players away from where we want to be next season (around the top of the league), nor do I think we need to drop Ronaldo or Messi into the team to get us up to snuff.

 

[bishblaize]

We spent £220m on players and if you look at who else we could have bought for the same or less we didn’t spend it well, too many panic buys, no coherent strategy and not enough medium and long term planning. Only Blind was signed for a fair market value and although he is a very good player I think he is another squad player (we have too many of those). I don’t really see a strong spine or starting 11 for this season and beyond and although we can argue points that no other side has 3 strikers like RVP, Rooney & Falcao it is also true that the top sides wouldn’t want 3 similar players they can’t use together who are in the latter stages of their careers and none of them are as good as Aguero, Sanchez or Costa. Too long either not replacing players or replacing them with players who are not as good has finally caught up with us.

There has to be a massive rethink in the summer and we need to look at every area apart from the goalkeepers, LVG will also have to learn some lessons and adjust to the Premier League if he is still here (if we don’t finish top 4 I think there is a good chance he will be sacked). Personally I think we could see more over spending again on players like Falcao and Strootman and we could easily spend another £100m and not address the problems we have. It is a huge job because it’s not just finding solutions to the problems we have now but Carrick, Rooney and RVP are all fading (Falcao as well) and if LVG is only going to be here for 3 years he will find it tough to challenge for the title in that time if he doesn’t get in the top 4 this season and then have a good summer transfer window

I agree we certainly need a clearer strategy. However its worth remembering that LVG arrived 6 weeks before the transfer window closed. I dont think it was ever going to be the case that he would be able to nail the fundamental problems in the team in that timeframe, rather he tried to address the most burning issues & then focussed on trying to get us into some semblance of order for the coming season. I can't believe for a moment that he hasn't been plotting what changes he would like to make in the summer. Indeed at this point the only major problem we would have is if he did get sacked, since the next guy would be starting all over again.

 

[Roboc7]

I agree we certainly need a clearer strategy. However its worth remembering that LVG arrived 6 weeks before the transfer window closed. I dont think it was ever going to be the case that he would be able to nail the fundamental problems in the team in that timeframe, rather he tried to address the most burning issues & then focussed on trying to get us into some semblance of order for the coming season. I can't believe for a moment that he hasn't been plotting what changes he would like to make in the summer. Indeed at this point the only major problem we would have is if he did get sacked, since the next guy would be starting all over again.

That was the drawback to hiring LVG he didn’t have a great knowledge of our squad or the league and the further Holland went in the World Cup the less time he had before the window closed. By the time he had looked at the squad, decided who he did and didn’t want players were already sold or being sold and he was left with less time and options. If he had joined straight after Moyes was sacked the squad would look very different but that doesn’t change the fact that what we now have is a bit of a mess and it is a big job for anyone to take on.

If he can’t get 5 very good players signed up over the summer I think next season will be more of the same because some of the problems have been existent under 2 or 3 different managers now and the balance of the squad is all over the place. The younger players like Jones, Smalling, Zaha etc have also not stepped up so I don’t see solutions coming from within the club.

 

[Pexbo]

I would be amazed if there's a future Vidic and Ferdinand in that lot. In my most wildly optimistic moments I might think one of them could reach that level. Absolutely no chance that two will.

By the way, my point is how much work is still to be done in terms of building a title winnning squad, I'm not blaming Van Gaal for what he did or didn't do in summer (although I do think we were crying out for an experienced, top class centre half and Rojo doesn't look like that player at all)

I'm not overly optimistic either. I think Smalling is the most likely to suddenly become a top player if he spends the season on the pitch rather than on the physio table. I don't rate Jones, I think he's a reactive player who doesn't have enough between his ears to make it as a top CB. Better footballer than Smalling, a fighter with some authority but I don think he will ever have the smarts to make it.


I think Van Gaal was right to give our centrebacks this season though, they're all a good age with good reputations, they've all let themselves down though. Had he bought in the summer and the likes of Smalling and Jones could barely get a game all season before leaving in the summer there would have been a lot of criticism from fans and media alike. They've had their chance, there is no denying that.

I've got faith in Rojo too. He needs polishing but then so did Vidic. He passes well, is reasonably composed, quick, strong in the tackle and good in the air and he relishes a fight. I loved the way he bullied Zamora who's a big lad and softens up some of the best centre halfs with his elbows and shoulder barges. It's been a while since I've seen one of our defenders win a physical battle like that. Lord knows Vida couldn't be arsed last season. He's only 24 too.

Maybe, maybe not. Will have to discover an attacking verve there's been precisely zero evidence of in his career to date if he's going to be as good as peak Paddy. And you're expecting this in the next season or two?

I think it's worth remembering that while Paddy was a great attacking fullback it was the supporting he excelled at rather than the attacking itself. Evra's productivity was appalling for a player that would spend half his time getting into great positions. It was his overlapping, the way he would create space and link up that made him so good going forward. Shaw hasn't had a winger ahead of him all season so how can we compare? Seeing as wingbacks are expected to play the final ball as well as beat a man with the ball at his feet, how do you think peak Evra would have coped with that let alone the declineing one?

That's all fair. Although with players like Cleverley, Kagawa and Welbeck it's not who they were/are that needs replacing it's what we thought they would become. Amongst the very best players in the league in their position. All we can say with absolute certainty is that applies to none of their replacements right now. Will it apply in the future? Hopefully but again your timeframe seems seriously optimistic.

Herrera is only 2 days older than Cleverley and has far higher potential so that's a good swap.
Mata is a year older than Kagawa and I don't think a comparison is necessary there.
Welbeck, I rate as highly as you do. Time will tell but clearly it's Wilson who is thought to be the better prospect by the club and they're investing in him as a result.

We might be "moving in the right direction" but we're miles short of the almost finished article that Chelsea were last season. Too many doubts about too many players. And that's if you ignore the most important doubts of all, the ones about our manager!

Comparing us to Chelsea last year I really don't see there being a great deal in it.

Their strike force was a mess and their midfield had huge problems supporting them while they needed a fullback to give them numbers and stability in defence.

We're imbalanced in the other way, our defence is a mess and it has trouble supporting our midfield while we need a good attacking wide player to give us more attacking threat.


They bought Felipe Luis, Matic, Fabregas and Diego Costa to remedy that.


If we bought Coleman, Hummels, Bale (Reus?) and Strootman, I think we'd have similar quality squad and team to challenge for the title. It might cost more that what they spent but we're comparing squads and quality rather than outlay here.

De Gea

Coleman - Smalling - Hummels - Shaw

Strootman - Blind

Bale - Mata - Di Maria

Rooney​

Or think of the counterattacking in this team:

De Gea

Coleman - Smalling - Hummels - Shaw

Strootman - Blind - Di Maria

Bale - Wilson- Rooney​

Then the strength of our squad:

Valdes

Rafael - Jones - Rojo - Blind

Fellaini - Carrick - Herrera

Nani? - Van Persie - Januzaj

​

Summer is an important window, invest well and we'll be right up there next season.

 

[mu77]

I hope most of the new guys will end up being decent signings but I'm absolutely convinced that we could have gotten more out of all that money. Just look at what Chelsea did this summer for instance.

But I don't think it's unfair to have doubts over Falcao, who looks a shadow of his old self, or Herrera who can hardly get a game, or Rojo who, for me, looks like a very ordinary defender, no better than what we already had.

nothing new in the first bolded part - 27m on wiggy , 37 on mata , wasted IMO. could have passed on both or got them much cheaper if united had someone who knows about football and even then we ended up with Moist . then chucking 30m on a lb who could give us 10 yrs of outstanding service but maybe not , a gamble. 30m on a midf the manager won't play. a very expensive loan move.

the second bolded part i can't agree with yet unless rojo becomes evans mark deux. chelsea sold us mata for almost double the price , sold crazy hair for 50m and lukaku for almost 30m. they paid for their new signs with the sales of excess baggage , and a manager that has a vision. we had DFM who s@@t his pants on the way in and then out of the door.

 

[mu77]

Yeah, the spending is staggering and (IMO) really really depressing. We've lost any moral highground we once had about obtaining success through developing potential, rather than buying the most expensive players around and we've somehow still ended up with a squad that seems nowhere near ready to challenge for a title. In a way, it's quite an achievement! To spend so much and end up with so little. 220m spent and how many players in our squad look like future members of the world elite?

seems a million yrs ago that we had a system in place to bring real talent through the ranks. them days are done. who was the last great , hell i'll go for everyday player that came out of the jr. ranks. wes was in and out of fitness , fletcher , was he ever good enough to be a everyday player for more than those two good yrs? welz wasn't good enough nor was the brand.

 

[finneh]

We might be "moving in the right direction" but we're miles short of the almost finished article that Chelsea were last season. Too many doubts about too many players. And that's if you ignore the most important doubts of all, the ones about our manager!

I think that's slightly harsh. The change of opinion regarding the state of Chelsea is quite staggering. Likewise the writing off of the likes of Herrera, Di Maria, Blind, Shaw as stars going forward.

Mourinho has made them into a great team because he's the best manager in the world. Beforehand they were an aging squad that needed massive investment and were probably looking at 3-4 years before seeing silverware.

Terry was way past his best; Cahill was upper mid table quality; Lampard was way past his best; Mikel was useless; Torres was useless; Ramires was mediocre; Luiz was a liability; Cole was way past his best.

The only doubt we should have is whether our manager is good enough to do the same. He's a good manager no doubt, but the jury is still out as to whether he's one of the best modern managers around. Certainly our current squad with a season to bed in, along with a couple of key additions in the Summer should have the same effect it did on Chelsea this season. If the manager fails to get the best out of them or fails to identify these key additions it's a different story.

 

[legball]

We have a good squad, but we're not a very good team, yet. If that makes any sense.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I think that's slightly harsh. The change of opinion regarding the state of Chelsea is quite staggering. Mourinho has made them into a great team because he's the best manager in the world. Beforehand they were an aging squad that needed massive investment and were probably looking at 3-4 years before seeing silverware.

Terry was way past his best; Cahill was upper mid table quality; Lampard was way past his best; Mikel was useless; Torres was useless; Ramires was mediocre; Luiz was a liability; Cole was way past his best.

The only doubt we should have is whether our manager is good enough to do the same. He's a good manager no doubt, but the jury is still out as to whether he's one of the best modern managers around. Certainly our current squad with a season to bed in, along with a couple of key additions in the Summer should have the same effect it did on Chelsea this season. If the manager fails to get the best out of them or fails to identify these key additions it's a different story.

Maybe we will find out if the pupil is better than the teacher?

 

[Sarni]

Exactly. I fail to see how Van Gaal and Woodward can be blamed for our net spend when half the players that left us retired or were in their 30's after being brilliant servants and left for virtually nothing. The other half were the likes of Bebe, Macheda, Kagawa, Buttner, Fabio and a load of kids.

Chelsea's net spend was good this year because they saw the FFP coming and stocked up on talent that they will release as and when it suits. Lukaku and De Bryune for example, they signed Lukaku for £17m and De Bryune for £7m and they played a grand total of 13 games between the two of them. Yet they're being included in figures that knock £50m off Chelsea's net spend this year. Not to mention the £16m Chelsea paid in agents fees last year, £10m more than United.

They're playing the FFP like a fiddle, their books completely flatter to deceive. Don't even get me started on that ridiculous fee for David Luiz.

Well it only works in their favour when they can sell Lukaku for £29m, De Bruyne for £21m and Luiz forn£40m when none of them were of any importance to them. There are no two ways about it, Mourinho has been tremendous in the market since his arrival.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

We have a good squad, but we're not a very good team, yet. If that makes any sense.

Yes it does.

 

[finneh]

Maybe we will find out if the pupil is better than the teacher?

Well I think Mourinho is comfortably the best manager in the world and our biggest mistake wasn't moving heaven and Earth to get him when Fergie retired. We'd currently be exactly where Chelsea are right now with Mourinho at the helm (and would have finished 2nd or 3rd last season).

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Well I think Mourinho is comfortably the best manager in the world and our biggest mistake wasn't moving heaven and Earth to get him when Fergie retired. We'd currently be exactly where Chelsea are right now with Mourinho at the helm (and would have finished 2nd or 3rd last season).

I wonder what he would have got out of PSG for Cleverley?

 

[legball]

Well I think Mourinho is comfortably the best manager in the world and our biggest mistake wasn't moving heaven and Earth to get him when Fergie retired. We'd currently be exactly where Chelsea are right now with Mourinho at the helm (and would have finished 2nd or 3rd last season).

No, Moyes was better fit as he was going to stay for 15 odd years, you know, that longevity BS that was often thrown about by United fans that time .

 

[DomesticTadpole]

No, Moyes was better fit as he was going to stay for 15 odd years, you know, that longevity BS that was often thrown about by United fans that time .

Trouble is the club have their collective heads stuck up their collective pompous backsides too often.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well it only works in their favour when they can sell Lukaku for £29m, De Bruyne for £21m and Luiz forn£40m when none of them were of any importance to them. There are no two ways about it, Mourinho has been tremendous in the market since his arrival.

You could add however much we paid for Mata to that list.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Fergie wasn't a magician, he was a master of his art. He taught a certain style of football and he created different United sides that played variations of this football style during his career. His last United team (2011-13), which is the squad first Moyes and now LvG inherited, had a very passive approach regarding pressing, played with a very narrow back four line to create compactness and, when on the ball, aimed to attack the spaces behind the opponent's defense.

It doesn't matter how good or bad we think the squad was, it was what Ferguson needed to play his favored tactics and challenge for the PL title. It was a good team... Sir Alex had absolute faith in what he was doing (some call it arrogance) and he knew how to pass that faith to his players. In a similar way Chelsea is Mourinho's team, City is Pellegrini's, Arsenal is Wenger's etc. If they were gone tomorrow and their successors wanted to implement a different brand of football, they would probably face similar difficulties.

LvG's approach is different, he wants to implement two fundamental changes in the team. The first one is pressing in the midfield to regain possession. This is a big change because our defensive line isn't supposed to drop deep in the penalty area and be prepared to defend the long balls coming into the box. They have to move up, defend the space in between the lines and also spot potential dangers from deep runs behind their backs. In the same way the midfielders' concern isn't just to get bodies behind the ball but also work as a unit in order to narrow down the spaces and limit the passing options for the opposition and also show good anticipation to intercept/steal balls in the midfield.

The second change is stretching the opponent's defense and creating spaces in between their lines, instead of inviting pressure and hitting on the counter whenever we are on the ball. In order to do that you need a lot of one touch football and more short passes instead of the long diagonals from your half towards the wingers. You also need midfielders and forwards who are able to get first on the ball, keep possession in the final third and invite teammates near them to create opportunities for a good through ball or assist.

It's obvious that it will take time for the players to adapt to these changes and it's quite possible that some players, who were considered to have big potential won't make it while some others will find their place in the first team. The good thing is that this kind of rebuilding job has been LvG's forte throughout his career and that the players still have faith in the plan. It's also natural that the manager is experimenting with formations and some players out of position before making decisions regarding who will go, who will stay and who will be signed in the near future.

As others have mentioned we lack experience at the back, creativity from deeper positions and an effective pressing game in the midfield plus the ability to keep possession in the final third when we are in possession and it seems that these problems can only be solved by bringing in two or three new players. I hope that this squad will be able to play as well as LvG wants with two or three new signings, a mobile CM with the ability to start from deeper positions and connect the lines, a winger who can provide double figures in goals and assists and a leader at the back.

We're not the first big club that had to go through so many drastic changes. Bayern Munich also found it hard to turn the page after a decade of staying at top level with Hitzfeld's 3-5-2. The same thing could be said about AC Milan after Sacchi/Capello and the massive overhaul their squad needed during the mid 90's and about Juventus before Lippi was appointed.

It's a matter of time and money and the time needed will depend on how well our players respond to the tactical changes and on how well the available transfer money is going to be spent during the next transfer periods.

 

[kouroux]

We have a good squad, but we're not a very good team, yet. If that makes any sense.

In other words, the manager hasn't found a way yet to utilize his players.

 

[finneh]

I wonder what he would have got out of PSG for Cleverley?

Even he'd struggle there. In the words of my Villa supporting mate "what is it that he actually thinks he's contributing".

 

[RedorDead21]

Well I think Mourinho is comfortably the best manager in the world and our biggest mistake wasn't moving heaven and Earth to get him when Fergie retired. We'd currently be exactly where Chelsea are right now with Mourinho at the helm (and would have finished 2nd or 3rd last season).

How do you make him comfortably better than Pep?