Putin gains absolutely nothing from killing Nemtsov but his death gives a whole lot of ammunition to his detractors, especially outside of Russia. Like I said, I'm no fan of Putin, but he isn't stupid and if he really wanted to do something about Nemtsov, it would have been much easier just to arrest him on some charges and send him away, like he did with Khodorkovsky, who actually had the kind of money, influence and political ambition that Nemtsov couldn't have dreamt of, even in his heyday.
Russia Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Putin gains absolutely nothing from killing Nemtsov but his death gives a whole lot of ammunition to his detractors, especially outside of Russia. Like I said, I'm no fan of Putin, but he isn't stupid and if he really wanted to do something about Nemtsov, it would have been much easier just to arrest him on some charges and send him away, like he did with Khodorkovsky, who actually had the kind of money, influence and political ambition that Nemtsov couldn't have dreamt of, even in his heyday.
Obviously speculation on my part. This murder points at Putin detractors.
Or indicates a lack of control over the actions of elements in the security forces. Many of the online comments in response to his death (paid Kremlin spammers or not) demonstrate that, for certain people at least, he got what he deserved for standing against the prevailing über-nationalist mood in Russia.
He was obviously doing something resulting in the state or another group needing to take him out in a hurry.
It may well have been this - http://charter97.org/en/news/2015/2/28/141367/
Had such a report come out from a prominent figure, it would've destabilized much of the government's narrative of non-involvement.
Anything is possible, but I seriously doubt that Nemtsov had any info in that report that could destabilize the situation to the point that he would be needed to be taken out. Sounds like sensationalized bullshit.
@Pexbo. I was born in USSR, witnessed the collapse of that country, has been through shitty 90s and know Russia well, pretty well to be honest. I am not saying that Putin is an angel, and his biggest mistake in my opinion is that he did very little in terms of economic development when the oil prices were high. I am the first one to admit that. However, calling him a dictator, or comparing Russia to North Korea is simply ridiculous. I am also fully supportive of Putin's foreign policy. Be it Balkans, Syria, NATO's expansion towards East, Ukraine, I am fully on his side. I hope that the current sanctions imposed by the West, will be a huge kick up Vladimir's arse, so that he takes his rose-tinted glasses off and develop's Russia's economy. This could and should be a blessing in disguise for the Russian Federation.
Taken from a bbc article... But it does seem that being a putin opponent could be bad for your health (or of course this is just a coincidenc... But I wonder what the odds on that would be)
Violent deaths of Putin opponents
April 2003 - Liberal politician Sergey Yushenkovassassinated near his Moscow home
July 2003 - Investigative journalist Yuri Shchekochikhin died after 16-day mysterious illness
July 2004 - Forbes magazine Russian editorPaul Klebnikov shot from moving car on Moscow street, died later in hospital
October 2006 - Investigative journalist Anna Politkovskaya shot dead outside her Moscow apartment
November 2006 - Former Russian spyAlexander Litvinenko died nearly three weeks after drinking tea laced with polonium in London hotel
March 2013 -Boris Berezovsky, former Kremlin power broker turned Putin critic, found dead in his UK home
Violent deaths of Putin opponents
April 2003 - Liberal politician Sergey Yushenkovassassinated near his Moscow home
July 2003 - Investigative journalist Yuri Shchekochikhin died after 16-day mysterious illness
July 2004 - Forbes magazine Russian editorPaul Klebnikov shot from moving car on Moscow street, died later in hospital
October 2006 - Investigative journalist Anna Politkovskaya shot dead outside her Moscow apartment
November 2006 - Former Russian spyAlexander Litvinenko died nearly three weeks after drinking tea laced with polonium in London hotel
March 2013 -Boris Berezovsky, former Kremlin power broker turned Putin critic, found dead in his UK home
He is a dictator in virtually all the self destructive ways that kill countries. He brooks no opposition, appoints yes men, and creates a corrupt system that discourages proper enterprise and can only be held together with fear. The Russian economy is still a slave to the price of oil even though there is no good reason why this should be the case. Police can still pretty much do what they want. He needs to go; I can't see how he can turn it round now.
Have you ever been to Russia. I have my own business Russia, and I feel quite safe there. Bear no fear of whatsoever. Police can not do pretty much they want. He does not need to go, neither he will.
Taken from a bbc article... But it does seem that being a putin opponent could be bad for your health (or of course this is just a coincidenc... But I wonder what the odds on that would be)
Violent deaths of Putin opponents
April 2003 - Liberal politician Sergey Yushenkovassassinated near his Moscow home
July 2003 - Investigative journalist Yuri Shchekochikhin died after 16-day mysterious illness
July 2004 - Forbes magazine Russian editorPaul Klebnikov shot from moving car on Moscow street, died later in hospital
October 2006 - Investigative journalist Anna Politkovskaya shot dead outside her Moscow apartment
November 2006 - Former Russian spyAlexander Litvinenko died nearly three weeks after drinking tea laced with polonium in London hotel
March 2013 -Boris Berezovsky, former Kremlin power broker turned Putin critic, found dead in his UK home
Oh wow, so these are all assassinations carried out under the order of Putin? BBC, feck me. Did you know about the letter written by Berezovsky to Putin?
How about millions of people killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, how about secret CIA prisons all over the world, how about Guantanamo, and not giving a flying feck about UN Security Council? Putin is a one cute cocker-spaniel puppy compared to some of the presidents of the current world, who I consider to be on the same wavelength as Adolph Hitler.
Do you think Putin or the Russian intelligence apparatus were in any way behind any of the above killings ?
In my personal and humble opinion, and I do not claim to be anywhere close to Kremlin, I do not think that Putin was anyhow involved in the death of Berezovsky. Here is an article by the Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/26/boris-berezovsky-inquest-spoke-suicide-roman-abramovich
Same about Nemtsov, there would be no need to do it. As for Litvinenko, I am sure Russia's intelligence forces were behind this killing, and I can see the reasons why. He was a betrayer. If I was to think about the Kremlin in terms of being involved in killing people, then the Chechnya war would be my topic, especially the first war.
Same about Nemtsov, there would be no need to do it. As for Litvinenko, I am sure Russia's intelligence forces were behind this killing, and I can see the reasons why. He was a betrayer. If I was to think about the Kremlin in terms of being involved in killing people, then the Chechnya war would be my topic, especially the first war.
What?
I would feel safe in Russia because I am no threat to the status quo, and am a westerner. Irrelevant.
Does Navalny feel safe? There's a better question.
The very fact that some people still stand behind him is a sad endictment of the extent of the media control.
Or would you just shut your eyes to corruption, to assassination of subversives, to brutality to any threat, to invasion of countries attempting to break away from the misery that all this causes?
You read exactly what I wrote and meant.
I was just highlighting it. Didn't think it was possible to be this far up Putins arsehole.
Is he in jail, has he been poisoned or died of a mysterious heart attack? I am absolutely sure, that if Navalny was to die today, the Kremlin would not be having a celebration party. Again, I am not saying Russia is a free or liberal country, at least not as free as you would feel in Western Europe, however, that does not make Putin a dictator for me.
Open your eyes! He has simply removed from power anyone who isn't willing to subscribe to the vertical pf power. He is a dictator.
Oh, that's the strongest argument you have it seems. The era of keyboard warriors has truly set in. I am yet to get your opinion of the following:
"How about millions of people killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, how about secret CIA prisons all over the world, how about Guantanamo, and not giving a flying feck about UN Security Council? Putin is a one cute cocker-spaniel puppy compared to some of the presidents of the current world, who I consider to be on the same wavelength as Adolph Hitler".
Lets agree to disagree there mate. If Putin is a dictator, then I'd rather have him as a president than Barrack Obama, George Bush and some of their friends-marionettes from NATO countries, who are global terrorists.
He's not a pure dictator in the Saddam mold, but probably more so a Hitler type dictator circa 1932 - who also went through an election and gradually consolidated power by crushing dissent and ultimately turning into a full dictator. The worst part about Putin is the more autocratic he becomes, the more he limits his ability to change course, as his authoritarian actions will make it nearly impossible to leave office without prosecution from a future Russian government, which is probably why he has not given up power and will never do so unless its taken from him by force.
Chill out bro. We know our leaders are cnuts who do cnutish thing. And we probably hate them more than you do. We call them cnuts literally all the time, Tony Blair and War Criminal are pretty much synonymous over here. But you know who else is a massive cnut? Putin. So, slowly crawl out of his arsehole, take a deep breath and if you still want to defend him despite it being pretty obvious that he's a really horrible cnut, go for it. But can you try to keep the America bashing in the dozens of other thread pretty much dedicated to America bashing?
Thanks Raoul for being reasonable, I am happy to have a meaningful debate on this. I can tell you, that unlike Hitler, he will not cause any war. I am sure there will be no political or civil unrest in Russia. Russia will not expand its military presence elsewhere, unless NATO keep their aggressive expansion towards east.
From my point of view, Putin will remain in power, for the next 10 years and will then pass it over to someone, circa Yeltsin-Putin power transfer. As I said in one of my previous posts, these sanctions are one of the wake-up calls for the Kremlin, and I hope that the apparatus will start actually taking care of the economy. I can see some of the signs already.
Cheers, mate. Putin is no angel, and as I said that the Chechnya wars, especially the first one, will always remain as huge stains on the leaves of the "Russia under Putin" book. Do I believe that there could be a better president in Russia than Putin, for sure "YES!" Do I not agree at times with what is being done by his apparatus, another "YES!" Do I think that he is one of the richest people in the world, that is another "YES!", do I believe that this wealth is illegal, feck "YES!!!"
So I am not saying that Putin is NOT a cnut. He is. Hopefully, my point is clear now.
He was, but Putin was already advising him, and in fact increased his f..cking popularity rating by starting the second war.Wasn't Yeltsin in charge back then?
Yes, but Putin and the FSB blew up some apartment blocks to kickstart both the war and his election.
Gotcha!
It depends what Nemtsov was going to do in the coming days/weeks. If indeed he was promoting a "Crisis March" this weekend and planning to expose Putin's coverup of Russian troops engaging in war in Donbass, then it would've given Putin plenty of motive to eliminate him through his proxies. Then of course, claim to the Russian public that he will take charge of the investigation and bring the assailants to justice.
This is well worth a watch from start to finish.
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Hmm.. Interesting point of view, but very lazy. Putin is more of a terrorist to Obama especially if you include the millions of his own people who are suffering due to his corruption of power.
Feck sake. Not even gonna discuss. Obama ruined countries, whole fecking countries. Agree to disagree and move on, I say. Good to see United won today. Hopefully, the Gunners drop points against the Toffees.
Nemtsov criticized Putin for the last decade and a half, he was never anything more than just a minor annoyance. Even at the peak of the protest movement back in 2012 majority of the country were largely indifferent or downright hostile towards Nemtsov and his allies' cause. That's the truth, the kind of truth most westerners have trouble accepting. You see Raoul, US and European mass media created this myth that unless people live in the western style democracy then they're truly miserable and all they do is dream about it and strive for it. It simply isn't true, and Russia is one of those examples.
There's a reason why someone like Putin is a president of Russia and people like Nemtsov aren't getting a shot at it in any near future. Russians love so called strong leaders, it appeals to them for reasons rooted in their history and mentality, being liberal and democratic isn't going to win you many points but if you're perceived weak, you won't last very long. Putin knows it and plays to it to a certain degree because he understandably believes this is what most of his countrymen expect, and you can't argue with the results - he does have the support of the majority.
Putin didn't need to have Nemtsov killed because he was no threat to him, plain and simple. All that talk about some report on Donbass (you can't be serious) and another opposition march (a few thousand people that most of the country won't notice) is way off the mark, the reality is quite different.
Don't really think Putin would've wanted the guy killed like this. The idea that it's his supporters, heavily influenced by the extreme rhetoric he directs at opposition, mistakenly thinking this would help his cause, seems the most likely to me.
So, what did he do to Ukraine and Georgia? He invaded their sovereign territory just to establish a frozen conflict to destabilize the governments who no longer want to associate with Russia (with the added bonus of stealing Crimea). What about the people of Dagestan and Chechnya? He's treated them wonderfully, I'm sure. That's why he got over 99.5% of the votes in the region with over 100% turnout at multiple voter stations.
Who started the military operations in Georgia and Ukraine? Russia did? It was not Saakashvilli who sent troops, fecking tanks first, was he? I was in the Ukraine when the things were starting to boil, I saw what was going on there. I see what is going on now. Believe or not, CNN and BBC do not always tell you the truth. Do you know what Saakashvilli was accused of, and how some of his opponents suddenly die? Do you know what were they shouting in Kiev about the Russian speaking community? Do you know how they burnt dozens of civilian, unarmed people alive in a number of Ukranian cities? I think, this is another case where the rule of agree to disagree is applicable.
Georgia started that war not Russia.
I've seen Putin and Ukraine discussed on plenty of different sites by hundreds of different people. I don't think that I've once seen someone defend Putin or Russias policy on Ukraine without quickly resorting to America bashing.
Good point. There's no rationalization for Putin's policies other than to preserve his own power. And if you challenge that, well then its time to blame everything on the west.