Russia Discussion

Here's an article from the Asociated Press on what's going on in the war zone. Hard to suspect them of pro-Putin and anti-Ukraine bias.

http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306481/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=xrTIfrm5

KURAKHOVE, Ukraine (AP) - Tears welled up in Vera Pavliy's eyes as she stood outside the bank, looking as if she had just gotten lost. The 76-year-old was stuck behind the battle lines in the east Ukraine town of Kurakhove with no money and no way to get home.

The war that brought death and destruction to the region has largely abated, but the misery remains. In fact an effective government blockade on separatist-held areas is only getting worse. The goal is ostensibly to choke the rebel economy and force the separatist front to yield, but for now Kiev's actions are fostering only resentment.

For months, banking services have been suspended by state fiat. Civilian movement is limited by a cumbersome permits system. Trucks brimming with supplies stand marooned at army checkpoints and in neighboring towns.

The interruption of banking services forces hundreds of thousands in rebel territories to embark on trips across the front lines to draw pensions or cash aid from friends and family. This week, Pavliy arrived in government-held Kurakhove from the rebel stronghold of Donetsk only to learn the transfer of 4,500 hryvnia ($167) she hoped to find on her account had not gone through. Now, she says, she has no money for the bus to return home.

"I feel alien here ... because nobody cares about me," Pavliy sobbed, standing outside a branch of state-run Oshchadbank in a well-worn sheepskin coat.

Government suspension of banking services in November compounded economic hardship caused by the shuttering of businesses alarmed by the erratic rule of the Russian-backed separatists. Cash machines in Donetsk flicker idly with no money to give and shops and restaurants cannot take cards.

Many, like 36-year old Irina Ryazhenko, travel to Kurakhove or nearby towns several times a month just to withdraw cash. She was told Monday that the new bank card she applied for in August is still not ready.

Making the trip has been complicated in recent weeks by a new requirement for people entering government-held territory to obtain a travel permit to cross back into the rebel-held east - effectively turning them into foreigners in their own country.

For those living just west of Donetsk, applying for a permit requires a bumpy, 35-kilometer (20-mile) drive to a police station in the sleepy town of Velyka Novosilka, held by government forces.

One recent afternoon, around 20 people were lined up glumly outside the station in the damp and cold to ask about the status of their applications. Chatter among those waiting was confined to grumbles about the bureaucratic chaos that often compels applicants to stay away from home for more than 10 days.

When approached by reporters, people clam up in fear that criticism of Ukrainian authorities could see them deprived of the pass. Still, the anger is palpable and talk quickly turns to yelling at the thought of the expenses that are piling up.

"I came here once and spent 200 hryvnias ($7). I came a second time and spent 200 hryvnias, and it's still not done! Now I have to spend another 200 to get this blasted pass," said one woman from Donetsk, who gave only her first name, Valentina, for fear of having her application rejected. "I'm not a millionaire's daughter. My pension is 1,000 hryvnias."

Others in line said they have been waiting to get their passes for a month. Some are lucky enough to have families in nearby towns and villages that can offer hospitality.

Ukrainian officials insist the permits are a necessary safety precaution for areas bordering rebel territory.

"In the current situation we simply haven't got any other option," said Lt. Colonel Volodymyr Kachanovetsky, an officer with the Border Guards Service in Velyka Novosilka. "We cannot control the situation over there, that's why these additional measures will help to improve the situation there, as well as here."

Alexander, who is wheelchair-bound, lives with his elderly father in the government zone, while his wife and child remain on the other side. He said he needed the permit to travel back to the rebel town of Shakhtarsk and get medical papers allowing him to receive treatment on the Ukrainian side.

He filed for his permit on Jan. 30. After his documents were lost, he had to file a new application and finally got the permit on Monday.

"I don't know how this is supposed to improve security, but they have made things difficult for people," said Alexander, who asked for his surname to be withheld for fear of prosecution for criticizing the government. "It's just another headache."

Many rebel-held areas have defied expectations of significant food shortages. The shops that did not shut down have until recently been sporadically but adequately stocked.

That began to change in mid-February, according to suppliers and vendors on both sides of the front line. Earlier this week, some 40 goods trucks were parked by a gas station near the government checkpoint outside Kurakhove - the last major hurdle before entering Donetsk.

Ihor Suleiman, a driver from Kharkiv, said he had been waiting for five days to clear that checkpoint.

"We drivers have got all the right paperwork, but they still turn us down," he said, referring to the Ukrainian troops. "What can you do? They have guns, and I don't."

While anecdotal evidence of a mounting blockade on the rebel east is abundant, exact figures on the extent to which supplies to the east have dwindled are hard to obtain. But vendors in rebel zones are feeling the heat.

A few large supermarkets in Donetsk appear to be relatively well-stocked, but outdoor markets, smaller grocery stores and pharmacies are struggling.

The second floor of a small grocery store in the city center was closed for business one recent afternoon. There simply weren't enough goods to put on display, shop manager Irina Baranova said.

"The suppliers say the trucks are waiting at checkpoints and are not being allowed through," she said.

Baranova's store had dairy, bread, alcohol and tinned goods on display, but juice and bottled water were nowhere to be seen.

A pharmacist at a drugstore a few miles away said no supplies had been brought in for a week. As prices for medicine increase almost daily, customers have been hoarding whatever is available, she said.

Kachanovetsky, the Ukrainian border official, made the procedure for getting through checkpoints sound simple. Tax officials inspect the cargo and check drivers' documents and give the green light to all those with the right documentation, he said.

Evidence on the ground suggests things are not that easy.

At Donetsk's sprawling, domed Soviet-era food market, rows of stalls where farmers once sold their produce and cheerfully plied would-be customers stand empty and silent.

One of the remaining vendors, meat farmer Vladimir Vasko, sells his own wares as well as goods delivered from the government side.

"It has never been like this before," said Vasko, who could only offer the traditional Ukrainian lard called "salo." ''It was tough but manageable before. Now we have no goods, the warehouses are empty."
 
So let's say, he is a corrupt little dictator. And? What's your point? So every country leader you're not happy about should be dealt with somehow? Who made America judge and jury of what's right and wrong in this world?

After everything USA have done over the last twenty years or so you have no moral right to tell anyone anything. You support the government that committed horrible crimes against other countries that resulted in hundreds of thousands of casualties and created far more messes across the world than it ever helped anybody. Your country supported and still supports some of the most odious regimes out there.

If Putin's alleged crimes upset you so much, then you must be losing sleep regularly over the fact that the likes of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. had done. You must be campaigning outside their home residencies in order to deliver them to the Hague war tribunal. No? Abu Ghraib and CIA torture prisons across Europe? Giving UN and everyone else a finger whenever it suits your purpose to get involved in yet another sovereign country's affairs? Putin the horrible dictator can't even dream of such arrogance.

And yet you readily defend your government's wrongdoings and make it sound like what Putin is doing is far worse. Figures.



I'm tired of repeating the same thing over and over again, so I'll do it one last time. Nemtsov was a non-factor in Russian politics, his influence was next to nothing, his 'mass demonstrations' never amounted to more than a few thousands of supporters in a country of over 140 million people. If you prefer to live in a fantasy land of your own making, fine but don't tell me what I know far better than you ever will.
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Ahh the usual pablum about "you do it so why can't we"... etc.

You haven't addressed the specifics of my last post - namely that Nemtsov's more recent work could have easily been perceived as being a nuisance to the regime. Its irrelevant whether or not he was considered a factor or non-factor (a Putin talking point) in Russian politics. What's relevant is that his current work was undermining a key narrative of Putin's - namely that Russian troops weren't in Ukraine, which in and of itself is sufficient to justify his murder, especially if he was about to publish data exposing Putin's order to lie to Russian families. At a very minimum, this can't be ruled out as a motive to eliminate Nemtsov much as the regime had a motive to murder Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, and others.
 
You really believe that, don't you? I guess that's the kind of opinion I'd have had too, if my view on Russia and Putin were entirely based on what I can get from the daily dose of usual western propaganda.

Must be easy living that way, no need to even attempt to see things from the other point of view.

Yes, the Western propaganda machine. Entirely state-run TV, predominantly state-run media, the state forces closure on any outlets that don't follow the party line. You nailed it. I wish we had such reliable news sources as you Russians have. At least the people reading Pravda and Izvestia realized it was lies. The Russian public takes the bait hook, line, and sinker. Only to decry actual journalists who present facts, rather than opinions, as propagandists. You're a bit like Fox News. It's gotta be "fair and balanced" to the detriment of the truth.

Yes, Russian media's "point of view" was that the takeover of Crimea was organic despite all of the obvious signs that it wasn't. I remember arguing with Danny about this but he refused to admit that the Russian vehicles with Russian military license plates that were pictures in Rostov and Sevastopol were proof of Russian invasion. He refused to believe that the Russian soldiers with Russian accents were Russian. Not all "points of view" are valid when they ignore reality, as the Russian media is want to do.
 
Yes, the Western propaganda machine. Entirely state-run TV, predominantly state-run media, the state forces closure on any outlets that don't follow the party line. You nailed it. I wish we had such reliable news sources as you Russians have. At least the people reading Pravda and Izvestia realized it was lies. The Russian public takes the bait hook, line, and sinker. Only to decry actual journalists who present facts, rather than opinions, as propagandists. You're a bit like Fox News. It's gotta be "fair and balanced" to the detriment of the truth.

Yes, Russian media's "point of view" was that the takeover of Crimea was organic despite all of the obvious signs that it wasn't. I remember arguing with Danny about this but he refused to admit that the Russian vehicles with Russian military license plates that were pictures in Rostov and Sevastopol were proof of Russian invasion. He refused to believe that the Russian soldiers with Russian accents were Russian. Not all "points of view" are valid when they ignore reality, as the Russian media is want to do.

Me too, this thread has been an absolute treat to argue in. At every point outright lies about what Russia is up to and what its reasons are have been introduced by Russian posters and Putin excusers. How they twist and turn to exonerate the action while simultaneously denying it was happening, only to have Putin show his complete contempt for the truth by blatantly admitting it after weeks and weeks of accusing the west of lies.

Remember being told we do not understand the situation because we don't live there by the willingly misled who it then turns out new absolutely nothing about what their country was actually doing.

I wonder if any of those posters ever think that to say we westerners have a biased media and are having the wool pulled over our eyes be US propaganda, we seem to be correct about matters Ukraine. Odd that isn't it?

So we now know as fact that,

Russia did invaded Ukraine.

It was Russian troops who took by force Crimea so that Russia could claim it. That was the intention from the start and it had nothing to do with any threat to ethnically Russian Ukrainians.

It follows as obvious that there are Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine using Russian weapon systems. The intention is to hold on to parts of former Ukrainian territory. As much as can be taken.

This whole mess is exactly what we in the west have been saying it was, a Russian land grab by an aggressive, ever more dangerous and autocratic dictator. The west was right to introduce sanctions and should not look to improved relations or greater economic co-operation with Russia.
 
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Ahh the usual pablum about "you do it so why can't we"... etc.

You haven't addressed the specifics of my last post - namely that Nemtsov's more recent work could have easily been perceived as being a nuisance to the regime. Its irrelevant whether or not he was considered a factor or non-factor (a Putin talking point) in Russian politics. What's relevant is that his current work was undermining a key narrative of Putin's - namely that Russian troops weren't in Ukraine, which in and of itself is sufficient to justify his murder, especially if he was about to publish data exposing Putin's order to lie to Russian families. At a very minimum, this can't be ruled out as a motive to eliminate Nemtsov much as the regime had a motive to murder Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, and others.

Your whole case is built on nothing but on speculations. Putin is murdering people because they are "perceived as being a nuisance". Really? Fact is you haven't seen Nemcov's "current work" so you're not really in a position to argue what it says. If it exists, why isn't it out in the public already?
 
Your whole case is built on nothing but on speculations. Putin is murdering people because they are "perceived as being a nuisance". Really? Fact is you haven't seen Nemcov's "current work" so you're not really in a position to argue what it says. If it exists, why isn't it out in the public already?

Its based on circumstantial information derived from 15 year's of corruption and lies during the Putin regime. We already know he's a liar over his involvement in Ukraine (do you deny this ?), so it wouldn't much of a shock if his regime were involved in Nemtsov's murder. But yeah, Charlie Hebdo etc.
 
Its based on circumstantial information derived from 15 year's of corruption and lies during the Putin regime. We already know he's a liar over his involvement in Ukraine (do you deny this ?), so it wouldn't much of a shock if his regime were involved in Nemtsov's murder. But yeah, Charlie Hebdo etc.

No, the question was where is this ominous report that everyone keeps mentioning, for which Nemcov allegedly paid with his life. I expect nothing less than a Qumarn Scrolls style sensation!
 
No, the question was where is this ominous report that everyone keeps mentioning, for which Nemcov allegedly paid with his life. I expect nothing less than a Qumarn Scrolls style sensation!

Reports his apartment was raided and computers confiscated immediately after his death. I'll let you draw your own conclusions there.
 
Reports his apartment was raided and computers confiscated immediately after his death. I'll let you draw your own conclusions there.

And Nemcov did not take any precautionary measures, like in the movies, should I have an 'accident' these files will automatically be transferred to the NYT... something like that?
 
And Nemcov did not take any precautionary measures, like in the movies, should I have an 'accident' these files will automatically be transferred to the NYT... something like that?

:lol: :wenger: Whatever bro. Back to the religion thread you go....
 
:lol: :wenger: Whatever bro. Back to the religion thread you go....

So basically Nemcov indicates that he is fearing for his life, he keeps on working on this groundbreaking, important report, yet he only stores it at home, on his personal computer, never even thinking of saving a copy (could have used Google docs) and entrusting it to his closest friends. for example. And now the report is lost forever.
 
So basically Nemcov indicates that he is fearing for his life, he keeps on working on this groundbreaking, important report, yet he only stores it at home, on his personal computer, never even thinking of saving a copy (could have used Google docs) and entrusting it to his closest friends. for example. And now the report is lost forever.

Lost forever or stored somewhere in an FSB computer.
 
He was on TV today apparently. They probably got spooked about the blogosphere going nuts about his whereabouts and arranged an appearance.
 
He's so damn heterosexual he only needs to look at women and they're pregnant.
 
Maybe he got some more botox or steroid shots to keep that desirable puffy head look that middle aged Russian men aspire to.
 
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/putins-reappearance-lie-hes-sight-150453763.html

How odd. I hope the old boy is well. There are yet more neighboring countries to invade and world leaders to lie to. Get well Vlad.
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told Reuters on Thursday that Putin was in good health and was working as usual. Peskov told Ekho Moskvy radio station Thursday that the president was "absolutely" healthy, adding that the president's handshake was still so strong it could "break your hand," .
This is like something out of North Korea :lol:
 
So, how will the Russian people react when he comes back from his vacation as a woman?
 
Unless there has been a palace coup, either the iron man is ill or the great patriot has sent his partner to an overseas clinic to give birth to their child. It's probably the latter, although it's not a great advert for his civilizational campaign against the decadent West and it begs the question how such a modest man can meet the enormous expenses of a Swiss clinic on his meager salary.
 
Reports today that he was ready to put his nuke forces on full alert over the Crimea. Seems that Russian lives were in such danger that he was willing to threaten the world with nuclear war. Oh my.

Everything coming out of Russia at the moment including the nonsense about being under threat from the outside (US/Nato) and from the inside (5th column/Maidan) proves how deeply insecure Putin is at the moment. A single event could be a tipping point for a major crisis, especially if the economy keeps tanking.
 
Everything coming out of Russia at the moment including the nonsense about being under threat from the outside (US/Nato) and from the inside (5th column/Maidan) proves how deeply insecure Putin is at the moment. A single event could be a tipping point for a major crisis, especially if the economy keeps tanking.

We have seen it before from various leaders ALL around the world, always pointing to outside and inside threats to keep the people united.
 
A classic hallmark of an autocratic dictatorship - the fomenting of outside existential threats as a means to consolidate power within.
 
Putin says Russia was preparing to use nuclear weapons 'if necessary' and blames US for Ukraine crisis.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ne-crisis-in-crimea-documentary-10109615.html

So Putin was going to carry out a nuclear first strike if anyone tried to stop him from stealing Crimea? Because "Crimea is historically Russian territory" it's ok for them to invade and annex it? Can we expect him to come after Alaska as well? Historically it was Russian at one point. I can't wait to see what kind of stories Putin and his propaganda team would cook up about the persecuted Russians in Alaska.
 
So Putin was going to carry out a nuclear first strike if anyone tried to stop him from stealing Crimea? Because "Crimea is historically Russian territory" it's ok for them to invade and annex it? Can we expect him to come after Alaska as well? Historically it was Russian at one point. I can't wait to see what kind of stories Putin and his propaganda team would cook up about the persecuted Russians in Alaska.

First he says his troops weren't even in Crimea, then he admits they were, now he boasts he was ready to use nukes to get Crimea. He's utterly paranoid and delusional. Not a good combination for a guy who commands the world's largest nuke arsenal.
 
I don't think it is, because both sides act pretty much the same. The only difference is that America pretends to be democratically and morally superior.
 
I don't think it is, because both sides act pretty much the same. The only difference is that America pretends to be democratically and morally superior.

America is an autocratic dictatorship ? I must've missed that bit.