I only said that it seems he wants to win by playing stylish football, and that some people find it interesting and admirable. If nothing else, it is a distinctive approach in today's football. I don't understand why that viewpoint makes people so mad. I just don't get it.
Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It
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That's Saf94's take on the topic. It's not even a fact that Caf's Bayern fans love him.
First of all nobody is mad, if you expect nobody to disagree with your arguments then simply don't argue. Secondly it's not a distinctive approach. Wenger, Klopp and Pochettino apply that approach in PL itself.
And many find the obsession of style over victory a bit stupid. You must be pragmatic ,not always but when situation demands. You cannot have only one way of beating opponents, it worked at barca because the players he had and madrid were building , but then he found his match in jose and he got beaten and had to leave. If he becomes pragmatic maybe he will be even better coach/manager.
Pep got his status in the first place because his team were record breaking trophy winners.
I don't understand how a preference for certain kind of football is equated with 'glorifying'.
Pochettino and Klopp not so much, Wenger is a good comparison. But I find Guardiola's approach closer to 'total football'.
You think that includes inciting death threats that leads to a FIFA ref going into retirement? Give me a break, you will excuse the most daft things but actual passion that does not harm anyone is panned or openly mocked
Punishments logically get worse based on your history of behavior. A one off manager doing something is treated one way, a manager who has a long history doing it has to be treated differently - how could anyone expect anything less?
What exactly has stripped him of this alleged saint status? That he doesn't behave the way you want/like or because he's actually been disrespectful? What I am sure of is this season he will speak up more, both due to having a better command of the language and because he understands what the league, venues & refs expect. Because he is someone who will speak his mind when pressed, people will see a more vocal Pep this season
For some people certainly it was so. Personally, I wouldn't care less if it wasn't done with such style.
With the amounts of money they've spent, I can't imagine them being happy with anything other than a (at the very least) genuine title challenge.
Same goes for Mourinho, btw. He just looks more on the right way than Pep
Same goes for Mourinho, btw. He just looks more on the right way than Pep
More vocal pep! What is what, bullying refs, disrespecting other managers, whining and moaning. But off course these are passion.
Sorry i'm a bit late, but i owe you a reply.
You certainly make valid points across the board. I also think that one should have reasonably expected a finals appearance, i just disagree that the fact that he didn't reach the final by default labels his stint there a failure.
Small margins and all that, out of those three semifinals i guess Real Madrid is the only outright bad loss, if for nothing then for the fact that they conceded two goals from corners at home in the first fifteen minutes which is completely unacceptable.
Barcelona in 2015 was simply better, while Bayern was ravaged by injuries and played a pretty makeshift XI as far as i can recall. Gave a good account of themselves, and got undone by Messi's genius late in the game. They're not the first, and probably won't be the last.
Atletico 2016, i thought that was their year. Done enough to advance over the two legs in my opinion, Muller's missed penalty probably sealed their fate.
Kroos wanted money which the board was simply unwilling to give him, i have no idea what Guardiola could have done aside from offering to match the amount from his own pocket.
As for the squad quality part, thing is, how do you replace Robben for example? He is thirty three, but when fit and firing he still seems like a closest thing to Messi in terms of raw mayhem he can cause for the opponents with dribbling and penetration. Schweinsteiger played like a man possesed during the 12/13, then fell off sharply (he rebounded for the WC though). It is a much tougher job than it looks on the surface
In short, you can hardly expect a treble winning team to become better TBH, it never happened.
Hes a bit of a bellend, so its appropriate to criticize him like martini.
Any time, Any place, anywhere.
Any time, Any place, anywhere.
This is a fair point.
I guess it's just at the time Pep was some sort of messiah after what he'd done at Barca, and the consensus was he'd take them forward. But yeah, how do you improve a treble.
Free KDB.
It has just occured to me that Pep spent £174 million last summer and has already spent £220 million this summer, nearly £400 million.
What happened to the legendary coach who took Barca B players and developed them to the next level? Now we're hearing that he's wanting to replace youngsters like Stones and Sterling with experienced players like Evans and Alexis (another £100 million!?)
If Mourinho had taken this approach he'd be getting massively called out by the media.
What happened to the legendary coach who took Barca B players and developed them to the next level? Now we're hearing that he's wanting to replace youngsters like Stones and Sterling with experienced players like Evans and Alexis (another £100 million!?)
If Mourinho had taken this approach he'd be getting massively called out by the media.
I remember when Guardiola took over at City and Sid Lowe was on Football Weekly and he said 'in future we will look at the Premier League in terms of before Guardiola and after Guardiola'
I remember when Guardiola took over at City and Sid Lowe was on Football Weekly and he said 'in future we will look at the Premier League in terms of before Guardiola and after Guardiola'
Did Sid Lowe really say that?!
I cannot think of a single Man City player that is better today than they were 12 months ago.
Like Van Gaal, if he decides the players can't adapt to his philosophy he doesn't improve them he just replaces them. If Pep gets Alexis and Evans City could end this window having spent £500 million in just two summers. Yet for all that the team still looks a but much of a muchness.
"Pep promotes academy players" is a myth and it was based on few players like Busquets, Pedro, Thiago whom he promoted at Barca.
He's revolutionised the shape of dressing rooms!:
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...gland-manchester-city-clique-gareth-southgate
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...gland-manchester-city-clique-gareth-southgate
To answer the question in the thread title: it is *always* fair to criticise Guardiola.
Yeah. I have to admit, back then I bought into the myth. However, it seems he was just lucky enough to stumble across a bunch of genius level youngsters. If he didn't know that from managing them at Barca B he would've just bought in like he's doing at City.
No doubt Pep is a great coach, at least for a certain style of football. If you lack the God given talent for that way Pep won't adapt to you though, he'll ship you out. Very Van Gaal.
He's got an eggy head.
I want to bump up old threads about Pep so badly. Pre-Jose days when so many were in love with him re he brings through youth and develops players etc.
Surely he should be turning the likes of Sterling into A.Sanchez type players. He's just bailing and showing himself to be the happy-go-lucky flukey semi-fraud that he is IMO.
Surely he should be turning the likes of Sterling into A.Sanchez type players. He's just bailing and showing himself to be the happy-go-lucky flukey semi-fraud that he is IMO.
If it's true that he's given the green light to offer up Sterling as part exchange, then that smacks of awful man-management. Just creating problems for himself if Sterling stays - which he will in my opinion.
Similarly with Mangala - Pep can't find it within himself to work with him and would sooner spend big on Evans?
I think Guardiola is the best manager when put in front of a world class squad. He wins them prices and does it in spectacular fashion. He is, however, not pragmatic enough to make a lesser team punch above it's weight.
Bottom line:
Pep for world class teams
Mou for teams below that
Bottom line:
Pep for world class teams
Mou for teams below that
Sorry but even Big Sam would've won leagues with that Barca and Bayern side.
seems to almost have started from scratch this season - there is no way so many new players can be integrated without a period instability in the team
"Pep is a good manager when he has a full squad of world class players in every position."
Which squad is City's lesser than in the Prem?
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If he wins the PL I'll class him as a world class manager but at the moment he's just had 2 amazing teams. An already Treble winning Bayern and the greatest football team I've ever seen in Barca during that era
The thing with Guardiola is that he is incredibly ambitious. His aim is not just to win tropheys but to do it with fantastic football. This helped him create his Barcelona team that is arguably the greatest football team ever. Give the same Barca squad to Jose, Ancelotti or Fergie and they would have won as much with it as Guardiola. Or even more! For instance, I could see them winning back to back CL titles. Still, they wouldn't have created the best team ever. In terms of CL tropheys, the current Madrid team are better than Pep's Barcelona. But it is failr to say that Pep's Barcelona will go down as the greater team. Because of the unique type of football they played.
The problem is that Pep's philosophy requires a squad full with great talent. His ideas can't be implemented by very good but not brilliant players. Give a squad with very good players to Jose and he could do wonders. Because he is not as ambitious as Guardiola. Truth is that no Jose team will be regarded as particularly great in the grand scheme of things. For Jose success trumps style any day of the week. Not so with Guardiola. For him only success with great style matters. To win a domestic league while playing pragmatically against the top teams is an assault against the beauty of the game. For Guardiola, either you win while playing attacking football against any opposition at any ground or you die, figuratively speaking.
But City do not have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi. Currenlty, even after this window, only 2-3 City players would start for Madrid and this could be generous. If City want to match Guardiola's ambitions and create a team that would count as one of the greates English teams ever, they will throw hundreds of millions at great talents. But even that may not guarantee big success as there are several very rich clubs that compete for the best players. Even after investing 600-700 millions in new players over the last 2 years, United and City combined barely have 4-5 players who would start for Real. That's staggering, isn't it?
The problem is that Pep's philosophy requires a squad full with great talent. His ideas can't be implemented by very good but not brilliant players. Give a squad with very good players to Jose and he could do wonders. Because he is not as ambitious as Guardiola. Truth is that no Jose team will be regarded as particularly great in the grand scheme of things. For Jose success trumps style any day of the week. Not so with Guardiola. For him only success with great style matters. To win a domestic league while playing pragmatically against the top teams is an assault against the beauty of the game. For Guardiola, either you win while playing attacking football against any opposition at any ground or you die, figuratively speaking.
But City do not have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi. Currenlty, even after this window, only 2-3 City players would start for Madrid and this could be generous. If City want to match Guardiola's ambitions and create a team that would count as one of the greates English teams ever, they will throw hundreds of millions at great talents. But even that may not guarantee big success as there are several very rich clubs that compete for the best players. Even after investing 600-700 millions in new players over the last 2 years, United and City combined barely have 4-5 players who would start for Real. That's staggering, isn't it?
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It took him a season, but he has realised the Premier League is in fact different to that of Spain and Germany and without a stellar squad, it's a dog fight. Hence why he has taken no chances this summer. He's looked to remove risk and sacrificed prospects in favour of more sure bets.
He's taken little flack for spending big on a new goalkeeper to replace an equally expensive goalkeeper he bought 12 months previously. He's bought a £25m backup full-back just in case either of his two £50m full-backs don't work out. He can't bring himself to work with £42m Mangala and so is requesting the club spend nigh on £30m for Evans. And now, if reports are to be believed, he's willing to offload £50m Sterling, one of the young English talents he was brought in to nurture, in favour of Sanchez, whom he hindered at Barcelona, only to realise he's actually quite good.
Pep's achievements aren't in doubt. But for the time in his career, his ability is.
To be fair that's when ambition meets irrealism/stubborness.
That's what Wenger and the Arsenal board has been sleeping to for the last 10+ years. We will almost never win, but when we do it will be glorious!
If the clubs' decision really is "we want you to play this style" then it's ok. At the risk they turn into the last 10+ years Arsenal, sort of a running joke.
If the club wants to win things (like most big clubs want) then that just doesn't make sense, because you will be asking for the perfect storm in the perfect sea. Which is ridiculous because any kind of style/club/quality can meet that criteria given enough time (hi Leicester City). So you're not looking for something special, your looking at something that eventually happens given a large sample, but brand it as "amazing" when it happens.
Having said this, it's way too early to evaluate Guardiola's season or career. He is young, this season basically didn't start yet, many things can happen.
His style works of course, like any other style, given the right weapons and/or circunstances.
IMHO he hasn't proven yet that he is one of the best managers ever because I think his career is too short and 2 of the 3 clubs he managed had a special situation in which they were much stronger than their rivals. Everytime he faced a strong, consolidated rival he crumbled (Real after it was consolidated by Mourinho, Inter, Real/Barça/Atlético while in Bayern), in some times very clearly - which is fine against strong rivals but help dismissing the fact you're the best thing ever.
He may become one of the best managers, but I need more samples from him.
If this breathtaking football can be produced with only Xavi, Iniesta and Messi, who are once in a generation players, and not with other good players like De Bruyne, B Silva, Bald Silva, Aguero etc who are world class in their own right, that just makes Pep a crap coach doesn't it? Because you ain't gonna get Messis growing on trees.
If he could produce this beautiful football with world class players like the City players in general, you may have a point. But to say he only needs players of the calibre of Messi, Iniesta and Xavi - I think they can play scintillating football without a coach to be honest.
For the record, I don't think Guardiola is crap. He is a top 4 coach, just been overhyped to poetic legend due to him coaching said Barca players during that golden period.
Pep is a great whatever way you look at it..be it thru luck or whatever he is managed to achieve some phenomenal stuff.
Winning is the aim of the game like most keep insisting here but won't it be strange to all of us watching, if City start playing a Pulis type football just to get results. He might not have won the CL at Bayern but getting to the semis consistently is job well done at any club(bar Real).
I wasn't the biggest fan of his Barca team but I respected him at the time as a head coach because he made sure his team was a representation of how he sees the game. We all differ in how we want to see the game played. For some it might be influenced by culture, others experiences and so forth... British fans might not be patient with his brand of football nor intensity conducive enough but I am glad he is still giving it a go cos thats his identity as a manager.
Common, it's like saying the Beatles were not a great band because they've not smashed chart records in Jamaica.
Winning is the aim of the game like most keep insisting here but won't it be strange to all of us watching, if City start playing a Pulis type football just to get results. He might not have won the CL at Bayern but getting to the semis consistently is job well done at any club(bar Real).
I wasn't the biggest fan of his Barca team but I respected him at the time as a head coach because he made sure his team was a representation of how he sees the game. We all differ in how we want to see the game played. For some it might be influenced by culture, others experiences and so forth... British fans might not be patient with his brand of football nor intensity conducive enough but I am glad he is still giving it a go cos thats his identity as a manager.
Common, it's like saying the Beatles were not a great band because they've not smashed chart records in Jamaica.
Actually that statement is true to every manager. Their very best work comes with a specific type of player at their disposal. An example, I think a Pep team is likelier to have more success with a Jesus than a peak Aguero. Just like a Fergie team is likelier to be more successful with a Saha/Cole than a RVN. That's just natural in football. Even our Jose needs a McCarthy/Drogba type to make his brand of football effective.
I see "world class" coming up to counter but I believe the great Pedro won't satisfy that.
I think he did great things, no denying here. Maybe he was helped in some capacity by the players but just having the best player in the world doesn't help to win, ask Maradona when he was coaching Messi.
But he was blessed with Xavi and Iniesta being around too.
I believe he's doing fine with City, and we just have to hope that he'll still face some hiccups so that we can "win" it but it will be tough. He's not overrated.
But he was blessed with Xavi and Iniesta being around too.
I believe he's doing fine with City, and we just have to hope that he'll still face some hiccups so that we can "win" it but it will be tough. He's not overrated.
If Guardiola was so succesful at Barcelona was because he was part of a big process and, something like what Zidane is doing in Real Madrid but even with Zidane nobody is expecting him to replicate this type of success in any other club. However if you want a team to attack and play aggressive football I would take Klopp over him, think he would do better if he had that type of resources of Manchester City.
He's a tough one. On one hand he's had, at two occasions, a squad at his dispossal that were above everyone else in the league. One of the them was the best in the world and perhaps the best squad ever that has since won all the same trophies after he's left. He did however win titles very convincingly.
At Bayern he won the league every season as expected. They've got another very good manager in Ancelotti who we also expect to win the league every season. No CL final but three semi final outings. Pretty good overall but nothing spectacular. He needed to beat Arsenal and United for his first semi, Porto and Shakhtar for his 2nd and Juventus (which he did in ET) and Benfica for his 3rd. Lost every semi to a different Spanish team which you would think he'd know pretty well and honestly he didn't have a worse squad but it's a knockout competition and anything can happen.
Last season really highlighted his faults and it wouldn't surprise me if he's already spent more money on players than SAF did in his last 10 years.
He's a good manager but I wouldn't categorize him as a great one just yet however if we strictly go by titles he's one of the greats.
At Bayern he won the league every season as expected. They've got another very good manager in Ancelotti who we also expect to win the league every season. No CL final but three semi final outings. Pretty good overall but nothing spectacular. He needed to beat Arsenal and United for his first semi, Porto and Shakhtar for his 2nd and Juventus (which he did in ET) and Benfica for his 3rd. Lost every semi to a different Spanish team which you would think he'd know pretty well and honestly he didn't have a worse squad but it's a knockout competition and anything can happen.
Last season really highlighted his faults and it wouldn't surprise me if he's already spent more money on players than SAF did in his last 10 years.
He's a good manager but I wouldn't categorize him as a great one just yet however if we strictly go by titles he's one of the greats.
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