The Spurs thread | 2017-18 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned

Will Spurs finish in the top four in the upcoming season?

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Massive Spanner said:
Sanchez is clearly going to be quality, to be fair. Can't expect a 21 year old CB to be flawless (Hello, Lindelof).

Poch has made some dire signings there though, none more so than £30m on Sissokho.
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Agree with everything.

Poch's signings deserves scrutiny. His transfer record at Spurs has been genuinely below average. Just last season he spent 70m euros on Sissoko, Jannsen and N'Koudou. So there's a clearly an issue here.

His coaching is undoubtedly excellent and the improvement in Spurs players is there to see, but maybe a case for Spurs hiring someone else to look at their transfers?
 
KM said:
Agree with everything.

Poch's signings deserves scrutiny. His transfer record at Spurs has been genuinely below average. Just last season he spent 70m euros on Sissoko, Jannsen and N'Koudou. So there's a clearly an issue here.

His coaching is undoubtedly excellent and the improvement in Spurs players is there to see, but maybe a case for Spurs hiring someone else to look at their transfers?
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I'm not sure I'd say below average, I'd say average, overall. Alli, Sanchez, Alder, Wanyama, Son - they were all very good signings. But his last few windows have been really bad, you could say that's been imposed on him by Spurs financial limitations vs the extreme increase in player prices but even then, as you say above, he's spent fair sums on the likes of Sissoko and Jansen.

I'd like to see what he could do with a big budget. He seems to be great at identifying talented young players but really struggles when it comes to buying more established players who need to contribute to the squad immediately.
 
KM said:
Agree with everything.

Poch's signings deserves scrutiny. His transfer record at Spurs has been genuinely below average. Just last season he spent 70m euros on Sissoko, Jannsen and N'Koudou. So there's a clearly an issue here.

His coaching is undoubtedly excellent and the improvement in Spurs players is there to see, but maybe a case for Spurs hiring someone else to look at their transfers?
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I don't think he's been that bad in the transfer market all things considered, the 16/17 season aside, where he made a hatful of poor signings it must be said, his overal record is very good.

Sanchez, LLorente, Alli, Alderweirld, Trippier, Dier, Son, Davies and Wanyama have all been a success to varying degrees.

I think overall his successes outweight the failures.
 
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If it weren't for Glaston, I'd be pretty annoyed with Spurs' form as opposed to happy. Spurs being in the top 4 this season would mean keeping out 1 of Liverpool and Arsenal. Here's hoping their form improves.

Stoke and Brighton at home now in back to back games. Simply has to be 6 points, help them find some form and confidence ahead of the City game.
 
K2K said:
They are only 4 points from 4th.

With a couple of influential players injured. People tend to overreact with Spurs. In both directions.
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So much this, they win a few games and the media start spunking themselves silly blabbing on about how they are going to push for the title etc etc. They lose a few games and it's out of the top four, lucky to finish top 7. Im sure the reality is somewhere in the middle of these two extremes.

Annoying they are in their poorest run of form for quite some time just as the City game is approaching. You watch, they will be on fire when we have to go play them end of Jan.
 
balaks said:
Some serious knee jerking going on in this thread.
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A certain Spurs fan has posted a load of cocky shite over the last couple of years on here.

I imagine many, and I include myself in this, are revelling in Spurs struggling and enjoying the moment.
 
Peanut Butter said:
It's hardly kneejerking :lol:

It's a long run of games where Spurs have been getting poor results.

4th is vital for a club like Spurs as well.
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It's a poor run of form but it happens to most times. Liverpool were performing poorly a while back and looked like they'd struggle to get top four but are suddenly in excellent form. Spurs will likely recover at some point and play well again. It happens.
 
Dobbs said:
Thought it was obvious I wasn't agreeing with that logic. Was trying to point out how wrong that poster is should he apply his thinking to our own manager.
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Fair enough :lol: think I mistook you for a Spurs fan! My bad.
 
Theres a realistic scenario that has City reaching 50 points before Spurs crawl out of the twenties.
 
cyberman said:
Theres a realistic scenario that has City reaching 50 points before Spurs crawl out of the twenties.
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From a Belgian site: Tottenham are closer to relegation than the title. Kinda funny.

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Random Task said:
Quite how they could have misjudged the initial projection costs is beyond me. Did they not take in to consideration the sheer complexity of the project? I mean to go from £400m to £1billion inside a 2 year period is absolutely outrageous.

How do they plan to fund such a costly venture?
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I wouldn't believe the Daily Mail if I were you. The club itself say the total cost will be between £750-800m. Some of the increase is due to opting to make the stadium fully ready to accommodate NFL football.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I wouldn't believe the Daily Mail if I were you. The club itself say the total cost will be between £750-800m. Some of the increase is due to opting to make the stadium fully ready to accommodate NFL football.
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Is it not just the Daily Fail quoting the whole cost of the entire project and pinning it to the actual stadium cost?
 
sammsky1 said:
ie: poch is not the tactical maestro you and others made him out to be. He’s been found out and doesn’t know what to do next.

I’m also very glad to note that it was José Mourinho who showed PL teams how to do this.
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Lol ... go through a blip and suddenly Spurs have been "found out". Well, Real Madrid found that they couldn't cope with Pochettino's team.

The knee-jerkery on this site is amazing to behold.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Lol ... go through a blip and suddenly Spurs have been "found out". Well, Real Madrid found that they couldn't cope with Pochettino's team.

The knee-jerkery on this site is amazing to behold.
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To be fair there’s not many teams Real have coped particularly well with this season.

They’re well off the pace in La Liga and are stuttering through most fixtures.

They’re kind of fortunate Dortmund have had their own meltdown or they may have found themselves in deeper shit.
 
They're as close to 16th place as they are to us in 2nd...

Could lessen the margin this weekend, but even still, wow.

I wonder what the general consensus is among their fans when talking freely and not trying to save face (as in on here, often), does anyone visit Spurs forums? Is there concern within the fanbase or are they continuing that kind of 'cult-like' belief in that Levy fella?
 
GlastonSpur said:
I wouldn't believe the Daily Mail if I were you. The club itself say the total cost will be between £750-800m. Some of the increase is due to opting to make the stadium fully ready to accommodate NFL football.
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It would come as no surprise to find The Daily Mail embellishing the cost to suit their narrative, it's what media outlets do. To find the club playing down the final cost is equally believable, though. Even if, as you say, the final amount should reach £800million, that it is one hell of an extension on the original projection of £400million. Clearly this project has been mismanaged from the outset.

How does Levy plan to fund the project from this point on? If he's stuck for ideas, tell him to give Ed Woodward a ring, perhaps a trade agreement could be met that would suit both parties in equal measure i.e $$$ for players.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
They're as close to 16th place as they are to us in 2nd...

Could lessen the margin this weekend, but even still, wow.

I wonder what the general consensus is among their fans when talking freely and not trying to save face (as in on here, often), does anyone visit Spurs forums? Is there concern within the fanbase or are they continuing that kind of 'cult-like' belief in that Levy fella?
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Sometimes I read rival subreddits when they've lost a match and last time I read the Spurs subreddit they were really concerned with losing out on CL football fully realizing they're in for a top 4 battle.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
They're as close to 16th place as they are to us in 2nd...

Could lessen the margin this weekend, but even still, wow.

I wonder what the general consensus is among their fans when talking freely and not trying to save face (as in on here, often), does anyone visit Spurs forums? Is there concern within the fanbase or are they continuing that kind of 'cult-like' belief in that Levy fella?
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I saw someone earlier on in this thread mentioning about how most of us are still arrogantly expecting the title and what not. Or at least were at the beginning of thr season.

I actually had a look at a couple of forums yesterday to see what peoples expectations were at the beginning of the season. Some were saying 1st/2nd or at least expecting a good challenge. Some were going a bit over the top and talking about how we were gonna drop down to 8th or even out of the top half altogether (blooming drama Queens). The majority however had us 3rd-6th, acknowledging that with a full 38 games away, the improvement of thr Manchester clubs etc, we'd do well to get into the CL next season and build from there.

That.... Hasn't changed really. Despite all the panic, we're still only 4 points off 4th, 7 off 3rd and 10 off 2nd. We've had a pretty shocking run of injures this season unfortunately. And as I mentioned above, we have one less point this season then we did last season.

Don't think it's quite time to fire Poch and clamour for Pulis or big Sam just yet.

Also, when people say stuff like that, what exactly are you expecting (genuine question)? I don't think anyone thinks Levy is perfect. He has made mistakes. But do you remember where we were when he and ENIC first took over (not a patronising question). The state of the club, the training complex, the managers, players, stadium, everything. Our league positioning. It wasn't at all guaranteed that we'd be where we are now.

If you look at the wage bill of clubs in thr season they took a controlling stake, the following clubs were spending more: Man utd, Chelsea, arsenal, Liverpool, Everton, Aston Villa, Newcastle, Leeds and West Ham. Sunderland and Leicester spent 2 million less.

Look where quite a few of those clubs are now.

Over the next few seasons, we were much closer in terms of revenue and wages to the likes of Fulham, Boro and West Ham.

So what would you have done differently to them? Which other clubs that weren't already huge (Man utd, arsenal) or haven't been bought out by rich benefactors (city, Chelsea and Leicester) do you think have better chairmen? And considering the change of fortunes when it comes to infrastructure, players, managers, league positioning etc, what should they have done to warrant praise in your view?
 
Random Task said:
It would come as no surprise to find The Daily Mail embellishing the cost to suit their narrative, it's what media outlets do. To find the club playing down the final cost is equally believable, though. Even if, as you say, the final amount should reach £800million, that it is one hell of an extension on the original projection of £400million. Clearly this project has been mismanaged from the outset.

How does Levy plan to fund the project from this point on? If he's stuck for ideas, tell him to give Ed Woodward a ring, perhaps a trade agreement could be met that would suit both parties in equal measure i.e $$$ for players.
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With all due respect, I would say it is not within any of our scopes to say whether the project has been mismanaged from the start or not, especially basing it on one or two articles.

I imagine Levy, with his financial background and so far rather stellar financial management of the club, will have slightly better methods of payment than selling players. For one thing, we've already raised a huge amount of money ourselves in the past few years by keeping a very small net spend or actually a net profit when it comes to transfers.

Secondly, the price has not ballooned. The 400 million figure was for a wholly different project (in fact, the same one the mail uses in their article I believe). We have changed architect and design since, once we decided to go with thr NFL idea and building other things around the stadium, rather than just purely the stadium. It isn't like the the price for thr same project has doubled.
 
Great post.... Daniel Levy has done a remarkable job when you look at it in the context of Spurs now Vs spurs when he took over. Too many people on this forum just looking to stick the knife in at any chance. They are a bit of as n embarrassment tbh
 
africanspur said:
With all due respect, I would say it is not within any of our scopes to say whether the project has been mismanaged from the start or not, especially basing it on one or two articles.

I imagine Levy, with his financial background and so far rather stellar financial management of the club, will have slightly better methods of payment than selling players. For one thing, we've already raised a huge amount of money ourselves in the past few years by keeping a very small net spend or actually a net profit when it comes to transfers.

Secondly, the price has not ballooned. The 400 million figure was for a wholly different project (in fact, the same one the mail uses in their article I believe). We have changed architect and design since, once we decided to go with thr NFL idea and building other things around the stadium, rather than just purely the stadium. It isn't like the the price for thr same project has doubled.
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Fair enough, mate.

That's a really insightful post, you did a far better job of explaning the situation than the various media outlets have managed to do. It certainly does explain a thing or two.

The selling of players to raise the necessary funds was actually a joke, I'm confident that Levy would rather contract a multitude of STD's than sell us any of his star attractions.

red4ever11 said:
Great post.... Daniel Levy has done a remarkable job when you look at it in the context of Spurs now Vs spurs when he took over. Too many people on this forum just looking to stick the knife in at any chance. They are a bit of as n embarrassment tbh
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Thanks for the headsup red4ever11.
 
Random Task said:
It would come as no surprise to find The Daily Mail embellishing the cost to suit their narrative, it's what media outlets do. To find the club playing down the final cost is equally believable, though. Even if, as you say, the final amount should reach £800million, that it is one hell of an extension on the original projection of £400million. Clearly this project has been mismanaged from the outset.

How does Levy plan to fund the project from this point on? If he's stuck for ideas, tell him to give Ed Woodward a ring, perhaps a trade agreement could be met that would suit both parties in equal measure i.e $$$ for players.
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The project is already fully funded right through to completion, so extra funds are not needed.

The £400m figure dates back over 7 years and relates to an earlier design for the project, not the current design. Inflation, plus design changes, plus Brexit exchange rate changes all figure into the cost changes. Mismanagement has nothing to do with it - the project is fully on track, fully funded and will deliver - amongst other things - the best club football stadium in the UK.
 
GlastonSpur said:
The project is already fully funded right through to completion, so extra funds are not needed.

The £400m figure dates back over 7 years and relates to an earlier design for the project, not the current design. Inflation, plus design changes, plus Brexit exchange rate changes all figure into the cost changes. Mismanagement has nothing to do with it - the project is fully on track, fully funded and will deliver - amongst other things - the best club football stadium in the UK.
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You have to assume that a large portion of that £800million investment came via debt which, of course, must be paid back. Now keep in mind that it willl take a number years before the club sees a return on generated profits by way of stadium income, so how does Levy plan to fund x-amount of years worth of seasonal campaigns, whilst shouldering the hefty debt, without selling his players? I just fail to see how a club of Spurs' limited means could avoid such a scenario. Even when you consider the many ways your average premier league football club can generate a profit these days - broadcasting deals, commercial sales, sponsorship deals, prize money etc etc - it doesn't quite add up. Surely something must give.

Just look at Arsenal for instance, they sold a hatful of players to gather the necessary funding needed to run a campaign. United would never have signed RVP if Arsenal weren't desperate for funds at the time. Levy is no fool, clearly not, but even he must be concerned about his clubs immediate future.
 
Spurs stadium is what will solidify them as a Top 7 side and protect them against doing a Blackburn or Leeds. They are still quite a long way off from really matching the financials of Liverpool or Arsenal though and are profiting from the added value of Poch and Kane/Alli at the moment.
 
Random Task said:
You have to assume that a large portion of that £800million investment came via debt which, of course, must be paid back. Now keep in mind that it willl take a number years before the club sees a return on generated profits by way of stadium income, so how does Levy plan to fund x-amount of years worth of seasonal campaigns, whilst shouldering the hefty debt, without selling his players? I just fail to see how a club of Spurs' limited means could avoid such a scenario. Even when you consider the many ways your average premier league football club can generate a profit these days - broadcasting deals, commercial sales, sponsorship deals, prize money etc etc - it doesn't quite add up. Surely something must give.

Just look at Arsenal for instance, they sold a hatful of players to gather the necessary funding needed to run a campaign. United would never have signed RVP if Arsenal weren't desperate for funds at the time. Levy is no fool, clearly not, but even he must be concerned about his clubs immediate future.
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It won't. The club already makes a profit (despite stadium construction and associated debt costs) - £33m after interest and tax in our most recently published financial results. That profit will increase - assuming stable spending on net transfer spend and player wages - right from when the new stadium opens.

You portray Spurs as a club of "limited means", but soon we will be will in the global top 10 income wise.
 
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oneniltothearsenal said:
Spurs stadium is what will solidify them as a Top 7 side and protect them against doing a Blackburn or Leeds. They are still quite a long way off from really matching the financials of Liverpool or Arsenal though and are profiting from the added value of Poch and Kane/Alli at the moment.
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How?
Newcastle and Sunderland have decent capacity. Didnt help them.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
A certain Spurs fan has posted a load of cocky shite over the last couple of years on here.

I imagine many, and I include myself in this, are revelling in Spurs struggling and enjoying the moment.
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He's gone missing as predicted as well.
 
prateik said:
How?
Newcastle and Sunderland have decent capacity. Didnt help them.
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Its not really capacity though but how much revenue your hospitality market can generate. I haven't checked precise numbers but being brand new and in London that Spurs stadium should generate a lot more match day income than either Newcastle or Sunderland.

This is why Arsenal generate more match day revenue in 15-16 than both Real Madrid and Barcelona despite them both having much bigger capacity
 
GlastonSpur said:
It won't. The club already makes a profit (despite stadium construction and associated debt costs) - £33m after interest and tax in our most recently published financial results. That profit will increase - assuming stable spending on net transfer spend and player wages - right from when the new stadium opens.

You portray Spurs as a club of "limited means", but soon we will be will in the global top 10 income wise.
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That profit is what secured Tottenham's loan. It won't be Spurs spending that money.
 
In their last 5 league games they've gotten 5 points from a potential 15, If that was any other of the 'top 6' they would be slaughtered by the media.
 
acnumber9 said:
That profit is what secured Tottenham's loan. It won't be Spurs spending that money.
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The loan was secured based on several things, being a profitable club is just one of them .... the huge value of the new stadium as a fixed asset being another.

As of 6 months ago, Spurs had spent more than £240m of their own club-generated income on the new stadium (hence our low net spend on transfers for many years now) ... and that figure will have increased further since then. So the amount of debt burden is going to be less than some on here seem to imagine.
 
Hawks2008 said:
In their last 5 league games they've gotten 5 points from a potential 15, If that was any other of the 'top 6' they would be slaughtered by the media.
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True. This is why too early to decide the outcome of the title challenge. Still, their collapse was quite unexpected. Is there a good explanation for it? What do Spurs fans think about it?
 
GlastonSpur said:
The loan was secured based on several things, being a profitable club is just one of them .... the huge value of the new stadium as a fixed asset being another.

As of 6 months ago, Spurs had spent more than £240m of their own club-generated income on the new stadium (hence our low net spend on transfers for many years now) ... and that figure will have increased further since then. So the amount of debt burden is going to be less than some on here seem to imagine.
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That's less than half the cost of your stadium. It's going to be in the hundreds of millions. If you have figures to dispute that you're welcome to provide them.
 
acnumber9 said:
That's less than half the cost of your stadium. It's going to be in the hundreds of millions. If you have figures to dispute that you're welcome to provide them.
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I'm not disputing that there is and will be a debt burden. I'm saying that relative to our income it will be easily serviceable and not all that large given the amount of stadium-complex costs that we will have paid out of club-generated income by the time the stadium-complex is finished.

I'm also predicting that our scope for paying increased wages will improve from next season onwards as a result of that increased income.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I'm not disputing that there is and will be a debt burden. I'm saying that relative to our income it will be easily serviceable and not all that large given the amount of stadium-complex costs that we will have paid out of club-generated income by the time the stadium-complex is finished.

I'm also predicting that our scope for paying increased wages will improve from next season onwards as a result of that increased income.
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You may not be disputing it but you're glossing over it. Any profit from the ground love is earmarked for loan re-payments. That includes stadium naming rights.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I'm not disputing that there is and will be a debt burden. I'm saying that relative to our income it will be easily serviceable and not all that large given the amount of stadium-complex costs that we will have paid out of club-generated income by the time the stadium-complex is finished.

I'm also predicting that our scope for paying increased wages will improve from next season onwards as a result of that increased income.
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Based on what predicate, exactly? There is no undeniable logic that could support such a notion. You are clearly not considering all variable factors here.

Have you considered the very real possibility of Spurs finishing outside the top 4 and the lack of CL football the following season?
 
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