Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Member 5225 said:
‘People’s vote’ has me :lol:

As if anyone would’ve considered another vote if Remain had won, even if Leavers had said ‘let’s keep asking the country before we integrate even more’ etc etc
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The ''smartest'' option the Remain campaign could do is just call it a second referendum and to be honest about viewing as a chance to right a wrong. feck knows if it would work(And personally I couldn't care as I tend to hate both sides of this argument)but at least people would know their being honest. The ''People's vote'' really is the shittiest and slimiest backhanded thing they could do and if they were to go ahead with this type of condensing argument then they'll deserve to lose.

People weren't ''tricked'' by a big red bus or Russian bots, they voted for a political/economic change and.........to kick all the immigrates out.
 
Member 5225 said:
Pls stop demeaning people...

Democracy is fine when results are going their way, but with Brexit and Trump people have suddenly become ‘stupid’
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You come back to me next April and tell me if what has happened was what you voted for.

Did you vote to break the Good Friday Agreement - oh you did
Did you vote to stop your driving licence or your insurance being valid in Europe ?
Did you vote to stop planes flying?

Because if there is no agreement/deal this is what will happen and as Brexiters don't even want a deal, that's exactly what they voted for.

I can give you a thousand more examples if you want.

I agree that the people who voted for Brexit or Trump did not suddenly become stupid.
 
Member 5225 said:
‘People’s vote’ has me :lol:

As if anyone would’ve considered another vote if Remain had won, even if Leavers had said ‘let’s keep asking the country before we integrate even more’ etc etc
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Farage himself said if remain won he’d push for another vote. Barefaced hypocrites.

End of the day, if Leavers think Brexit is going to be so great, why are they afraid of another vote?
 
I think the key question here is: if there were a second referendum, would people vote differently?

I genuinely think it'd be at least 60-40 in favor of Remain now because everyone's been able to see how much of a mess Brexit will be.
 
Klopper76 said:
Both of those things were stupid though. The UK was stupid to vote in favor of Brexit, and the US was stupid to vote for Trump.
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Pls continue re AFD, Hungarian, Swedish, Polish, French etc right-wing votes.

Demeaning is so stupid and counter productive. At least wonder WHY...
 
Paul the Wolf said:
He just cannot stop lying. People did not know what they voted for, back then he was not saying what he's saying now. Furthermore, even today they still do not know what they voted for because until it smacks them fully in the face on 30th March 2019 reality won't dawn on them.
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Most Brexit voters wont realise it then unless the Mail/Sun tells them. Even then it would have to be a big bold headline at the top of the page.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
You come back to me next April and tell me if what has happened was what you voted for.

Did you vote to break the Good Friday Agreement - oh you did
Did you vote to stop your driving licence or your insurance being valid in Europe ?
Did you vote to stop planes flying?

Because if there is no agreement/deal this is what will happen and as Brexiters don't even want a deal, that's exactly what they voted for.

I can give you a thousand more examples if you want.

I agree that the people who voted for Brexit or Trump did not suddenly become stupid.
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So the argument is different here. It’s about whether the Govt is able to EXECUTE what is, a very simple proposition (of leaving the EU and it’s control over us). Most of the planet lives outside of it, so it IS achievable (albeit with bumps across the way).
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Farage himself said if remain won he’d push for another vote. Barefaced hypocrites.

End of the day, if Leavers think Brexit is going to be so great, why are they afraid of another vote?
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That's the thing that's ridiculous, apparently having another vote when people are much more informed of what a post Brexit Britain will look like is undemocratic.

The whole thing has become a complete shit show and surely the reason Brexiteers are so resistant to another vote, whatever you call it, is because the scenario they would put forward to the public (I suspect there won't be a deal) would be terrible.
 
Member 5225 said:
So the argument is different here. It’s about whether the Govt is able to EXECUTE what is, a very simple proposition (of leaving the EU and it’s control over us). Most of the planet lives outside of it, so it IS achievable (albeit with bumps across the way).
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My argument is not about whether the UK can or cannot leave the EU. It is that those who voted for Brexit understand exactly what they voted for and all the consequences that involves . I'm not even saying that the decision should be overturned.

Other points, most of the planet does live outside the EU but also have agreements and deals with other countries and quite a few agreements with the EU, they are not alone. Please do not say WTO deal.
The UK will have no deals on 30th March. Nothing will be in place on anything.
I do not see how the UK will survive the disruption intact and how they can recover thereafter.

At the moment May is proposing one thing which is different from before and Mogg is proposing another and there are probably thousands of different versions in people's heads.

Which is the one that Brexiters voted for, after all they know what they voted for, or did they?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I'm not expecting that either, nor is anyone else I would imagine, but if there is no deal life will start to become different for people in the UK.
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And Europeans. They have very little idea of what Brexit will mean to them cos they pay less interest than anyone in the UK, that's why they ask me all the time instead of asking their own mep's or govt. They don't know that they are unable to book a flight from AMS to LON for next April. They are ignorant to it all, they think that non of it will affect them.

This only applies mind if uk becomes north korea as you keep telling us it is going to. Maybe, like me, they think not much will change. If that's the case, we can redefine who the real idiots are / were.
 
RORY65 said:
That's the thing that's ridiculous, apparently having another vote when people are much more informed of what a post Brexit Britain will look like is undemocratic.

The whole thing has become a complete shit show and surely the reason Brexiteers are so resistant to another vote, whatever you call it, is because the scenario they would put forward to the public (I suspect there won't be a deal) would be terrible.
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There isn't a single person on the planet that can tell you exactly what leaving the eu looks like, it has never happened, there is no historic data to look back on.
 
Do people genuinely think the 2016 referendum was a blank cheque endorsement for whatever deal the government end up getting?


Close ties with EU, terms same as customs union and single market?

Yep, that's what we voted for

Not close ties with EU, terms same as customs union but outside the single market?

Yep, we voted for that

Not close ties with the EU, not same terms as customs union but inside single market?

Yep, we voted for that too

How about no close ties with EU and leaving customs union and single market completely without a deal?

We voted for that as well!


It's getting to the point where arguing against a second referendum on the basis that you think we endorsed any outcome of the negotiations 3 years before they concluded, is starting to look pretty moronic.
 
Stanley Road said:
And Europeans. They have very little idea of what Brexit will mean to them cos they pay less interest than anyone in the UK, that's why they ask me all the time instead of asking their own mep's or govt. They don't know that they are unable to book a flight from AMS to LON for next April. They are ignorant to it all, they think that non of it will affect them.

This only applies mind if uk becomes north korea as you keep telling us it is going to. Maybe, like me, they think not much will change. If that's the case, we can redefine who the real idiots are / were.
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Most people in Europe I would guess have little interest in Brexit, certainly no-one I know who is not English except the odd "Brexit, hahahaha, those English are mad".
Most of them won't be affected by it.
To have the flights working there has to be an agreement and since no-one has a clue what the UK want, it becomes difficult to come to an agreement.

If May had said from the early days of negotiations what they want without the stupid posturing and cherry picking, talks would be far further forward.
And here we are 6 months before the UK leave and still she's trying to cherry pick and the whole world except her knows it is not going to work.

I agree it sounds insane that it could come to that, but has anything been remotely sane in the last couple of years.

Sticking ones head in the sand and hoping the Irish border problem will magically disappear is not really a sensible strategy.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Most people in Europe I would guess have little interest in Brexit, certainly no-one I know who is not English except the odd "Brexit, hahahaha, those English are mad".
Most of them won't be affected by it.
To have the flights working there has to be an agreement and since no-one has a clue what the UK want, it becomes difficult to come to an agreement.

If May had said from the early days of negotiations what they want without the stupid posturing and cherry picking, talks would be far further forward.
And here we are 6 months before the UK leave and still she's trying to cherry pick and the whole world except her knows it is not going to work.

I agree it sounds insane that it could come to that, but has anything been remotely sane in the last couple of years.

Sticking ones head in the sand and hoping the Irish border problem will magically disappear is not really a sensible strategy.
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That's just the thing, they will be affected by something as simple as trying to book a visit to the uk today, for next april onwards. They pay no interest cos they don't think they will be affected.

Or like me, they think sensibility will win the day.
 
Stanley Road said:
That's just the thing, they will be affected by something as simple as trying to book a visit to the uk today, for next april onwards. They pay no interest cos they don't think they will be affected.

Or like me, they think sensibility will win the day.
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You would hope people being sensible would win the day.

People in Europe will be affected to varying degrees but for most people it would be a mild inconvenience at worst. A relatively small number will obviously be affected much more seriously .
 
I don't understand what's so difficult about the reasons for a second vote.
We were asked a simple "Yes or No" question on a topic that simply couldn't be answered that way. Thus creating a situation where no one has a mandate for the type of brexit they want.
Think it is a scandal that party politics is the one deciding what kind of relationship the entire country will get.
 
Adisa said:
I don't understand what's so difficult about the reasons for a second vote.
We were asked a simple "Yes or No" question on a topic that simply couldn't be answered that way. Thus creating a situation where no one has a mandate for the type of brexit they want.
Think it is a scandal that party politics is the one deciding what kind of relationship the entire country will get.
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We aren't getting a second referendum. I actually thought Javid was one of the better ones until I read that Sunday Times story.
 
Adisa said:
I don't understand what's so difficult about the reasons for a second vote.
We were asked a simple "Yes or No" question on a topic that simply couldn't be answered that way. Thus creating a situation where no one has a mandate for the type of brexit they want.
Think it is a scandal that party politics is the one deciding what kind of relationship the entire country will get.
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I'm not against a second referendum in principle, but the idea seems to mean different things to different people, particularly in what they think would happen afterwards. I suspect it might be even less suitable for a simple 'yes or no' than the first one. In particular it puzzles me that people think the EU will re-negotiate because we've had another vote.

As you're in favour of a second referendum how would you word one yourself, I'm open to persuasion?
 
Adisa said:
I don't understand what's so difficult about the reasons for a second vote.
We were asked a simple "Yes or No" question on a topic that simply couldn't be answered that way. Thus creating a situation where no one has a mandate for the type of brexit they want.
Think it is a scandal that party politics is the one deciding what kind of relationship the entire country will get.
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This sums it up completely.
 
711 said:
I'm not against a second referendum in principle, but the idea seems to mean different things to different people, particularly in what they think would happen afterwards. I suspect it might be even less suitable for a simple 'yes or no' than the first one. In particular it puzzles me that people think the EU will re-negotiate because we've had another vote.

As you're in favour of a second referendum how would you word one yourself, I'm open to persuasion?
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I'm not necesarily advocating for referendums since I think they're a bad ide used by governments too cowardly to make decisions. But that can has been opened. My own suggestion depends on two outcomes.
If there is no deal
  • A referendum asking the questions again. (Leave, go back and negotiate or remain). Leave means leave without a deal. My guess is, "Go back and negotiate" might not be on the table.
If there is a deal
This for me requires a two-stage referendum. Since we now know what brexit looks like.
  • Leave or Remain. (Stage 1)
  • (Stage 2) Tell EU to shove it and leave without a deal, Take Theresa May's deal or Remain.
Think these events give the government a clear mandate for whatever it wants to do.

Think the preferential system like the one in Northern Ireland could be used as well for three-way referendums.
 
Adisa said:
I'm not necesarily advocating for referendums since I think they're a bad ide used by governments too cowardly to make decisions. But that can has been opened. My own suggestion depends on two outcomes.
If there is no deal
  • A referendum asking the questions again. (Leave, go back and negotiate or remain). Leave means leave without a deal. My guess is, "Go back and negotiate" might not be on the table.
If there is a deal
This for me requires a two-stage referendum. Since we now know what brexit looks like.
  • Leave or Remain. (Stage 1)
  • (Stage 2) Tell EU to shove it and leave without a deal, Take Theresa May's deal or Remain.
Think these events give the government a clear mandate for whatever it wants to do.

Think the preferential system like the one in Northern Ireland could be used as well for three-way referendums.
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Thanks. I can't see 'go back and renegotiate' as an option personally, I just don't see why the EU should change there stance because of a referendum, so that's one choice gone. Also, it would be crazy to have Remain as an option if we didn't know whether the EU would allow remain in the first place, and with what conditions (lose the rebate, have to join the euro etc), so we would have to ask them, and god knows how long we would have to wait for an answer given the number of countries concerned, or what corner we would have painted ourselves into if they said no.

I thought from the start that voting Leave was handing the government the right to negotiate an international treaty, in the way that all international treaties are negotiated, by governments, not parliaments or electorates. Not good, but that's the way it is.
 
711 said:
Thanks. I can't see 'go back and renegotiate' as an option personally, I just don't see why the EU should change there stance because of a referendum, so that's one choice gone. Also, it would be crazy to have Remain as an option if we didn't know whether the EU would allow remain in the first place, and with what conditions (lose the rebate, have to join the euro etc), so we would have to ask them, and god knows how long we would have to wait for an answer given the number of countries concerned, or what corner we would have painted ourselves into if they said no.

I thought from the start that voting Leave was handing the government the right to negotiate an international treaty, in the way that all international treaties are negotiated, by governments, not parliaments or electorates. Not good, but that's the way it is.
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As with so many things, this was never discussed. Can't remember any party putting a single cohesive explanation of our future after we leave. No one is even doing that right now.
You now have cabinet ministers saying the official government position is only a sticking tape and once they've fecked the PM off, they will revisit the agreement.
Your argument would be right if the government knew what they were doing and had a positiion.
On if the EU would allow us remain, that's a tough one. I would assume the overwhelming majority would be in favour but with 27 member states, you never know.
To be honest, do we know what the set rules are if A50 can be revoked, since it's never been done before?
 
Adisa said:
As with so many things, this was never discussed. Can't remember any party putting a single cohesive explanation of our future after we leave. No one is even doing that right now.
You now have cabinet ministers saying the official government position is only a sticking tape and once they've fecked the PM off, they will revisit the agreement.
Your argument would be right if the government knew what they were doing and had a positiion.
On if the EU would allow us remain, that's a tough one. I would assume the overwhelming majority would be in favour but with 27 member states, you never know.
To be honest, do we know what the set rules are if A50 can be revoked, since it's never been done before?
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People have claimed to know both we can and we can't, with the usual certainty one gets from them, but in practice we won't know until it's actually tested, it would depend on what the members think of a particular case at the time, I'd have thought.
 
711 said:
Also, it would be crazy to have Remain as an option if we didn't know whether the EU would allow remain in the first place, and with what conditions (lose the rebate, have to join the euro etc), so we would have to ask them, and god knows how long we would have to wait for an answer given the number of countries concerned, or what corner we would have painted ourselves into if they said no.
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The EU have signaled that up until a certain point they’d accept a u-turn on Brexit. IIRC however it was only if it was a result of another referendum or election though, not just the government deciding.
 
Kentonio said:
The EU have signaled that up until a certain point they’d accept a u-turn on Brexit. IIRC however it was only if it was a result of another referendum or election though, not just the government deciding.
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Have they? Or is the signalling one person's interpretation of what might happen? With most Brexit issues there seems to be a lot of conflicting quotes, from senior figures too, and people pick out the one that matches their own position and claim that's the right one of the many. I suspect we don't actually know. But if I'm wrong, and I often am, have the EU signalled they would accept a return to the status quo, no change, no penalties, no guarantees for the future?
 
711 said:
Have they? Or is the signalling one person's interpretation of what might happen? With most Brexit issues there seems to be a lot of conflicting quotes, from senior figures too, and people pick out the one that matches their own position and claim that's the right one of the many. I suspect we don't actually know. But if I'm wrong, and I often am, have the EU signalled they would accept a return to the status quo, no change, no penalties, no guarantees for the future?
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That seemed to be the message. That they’d accept a reversal as long as it was democratically signaled, without additional conditions. Of course we’ve already lost things like the medical agency which we couldn’t expect to get back, but unless they’ve changed their minds it didn’t look like there would be demands regarding the rebate or the euro or suchlike. It’s in their interests for us to stay too. It did seem like it was time dependent though, if we’re going to do a second referendum it needs to be soon.
 
Kentonio said:
That seemed to be the message. That they’d accept a reversal as long as it was democratically signaled, without additional conditions. Of course we’ve already lost things like the medical agency which we couldn’t expect to get back, but unless they’ve changed their minds it didn’t look like there would be demands regarding the rebate or the euro or suchlike. It’s in their interests for us to stay too. It did seem like it was time dependent though, if we’re going to do a second referendum it needs to be soon.
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Forgive me for being picky, but again is this 'message' one person's view out of many? Where did it come from, can you quote anything? At the moment it's what Barnier says that counts, albeit he won't make any final decisions. I realise there's a lot of sentiment in the EU that they don't want Britain to leave and many people have said so, but there's a strong desire to protect the unity and structure of the EU too, and allowing constituents to hugely threaten them, but without consequences, seems unlikely to me.
 
711 said:
Have they? Or is the signalling one person's interpretation of what might happen? With most Brexit issues there seems to be a lot of conflicting quotes, from senior figures too, and people pick out the one that matches their own position and claim that's the right one of the many. I suspect we don't actually know. But if I'm wrong, and I often am, have the EU signalled they would accept a return to the status quo, no change, no penalties, no guarantees for the future?
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Indeed... I remember the guy who wrote article 50 coming out and saying it was written with the intention it could be revoked at any time... And the time it seemed pretty clear that no matter what the intention it could be challenged in the European courts be ulultimatley a judge would decide how the letter of the law would be applied to the situation (which presumably would ultimately end up being appealed to the highest European courts... There would be. Certain irony if the only way the brexiteers could force a hard brexit would be to rely on the European courts...)
 
711 said:
Forgive me for being picky, but again is this 'message' one person's view out of many? Where did it come from, can you quote anything? At the moment it's what Barnier says that counts, albeit he won't make any final decisions. I realise there's a lot of sentiment in the EU that they don't want Britain to leave and many people have said so, but there's a strong desire to protect the unity and structure of the EU too, and allowing constituents to hugely threaten them, but without consequences, seems unlikely to me.
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It was from top European figures, sorry I can’t do my normal searching and backing up process because I’m on holiday with my gf and just popping on briefly. I’ll try and find you some links when I get back.
 
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