Scores die in Israeli air strikes

Hamas are a democratically elected terrorist organization, their political wing winning the mandate dosent really count them as a political party or making them less tainted to any extent. If people elect any stained organization to power then they should face the repurcussion. In retrospect US governments designated by their populace, groomed Bin Laden and its eventually ended up killing their civilians in 9/11, we Indians voted an impotent government to power and it led to a string of low level terrorist attacks across the country that finally culminated in the Mumbai massacre.

As for some regular Labobs around here trying to pick up some clever debates by counting corpses, the problem is more astronomical than Israel blowing out few Hamas installations or vice versa. Like in the Mumbai attacks the alleged freedom fighters from Pakistan in an ideal world shouldn't have had any apparent reasons to grab a jewish couple, cut the eyes, ears and nose out of Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, broke his legs and then smashing his face with bullets, torturing his pregnant missus for hours, stripping her, smashing her abdomen constantly and finally shooting between her legs, killing their children- it all sums up the brutal abhorrence of Jihad’s around the world who have turned on against Israel as whole , even those Mossad agents who received the corpses stated another holocaust is on the reckoning. Doubt any human rights organization or any Islamic nation had the guts or time to condemn these viciousness then, as the damage is usually guaged on the media barking out some sensational report on death counts.

The state sponsored terrorism by the pan arab league or any other Islamic nation cannot be eradicated unless the guilty states are made to pay a prohibitive price. STASI the east german intelligence was behind terrorism in the western europe and it continued as long as communism lasted there. Syria and Libya were playing the same cards and only a strong reply from the US forced them to revert back. The problem in the middle east is more cancerous than 1.5 million people fighting over a tiny strip of land, would not evaporate even if an independent state of Palestine is created. Israel have every right to hit back and as long as they allow humanitarian aid and basic amnities to flow across the gaza strip, they shouldn't be blamed.

Vijay,

Your attempt to draw up similarities are at the best weak, if not juvenile justification.

Mumbia was about a conflict between two nations. It is a war over a mutual territory of land that both India and Pakistan's people claim ownership. The Palestinian people are just short of being imprisoned by the Israeli government.


I could go on for days as to differences between the two, but I am not going to waste my time on moronic ideological mind-fecks.


Bottom line: Vijay, if I was one of the family members of the murdered in Mumbia, I would be highly offended that you would aline the savage attacks of the Israeli forces with what happened in India.

Your a cheap and very desperate to save face. I need to stop and find some stomach medicine - you and your fecked up arguement is making me ill.

Why don't you just continue with supporting the policy of genocide.
Sorry, to have disturbed your fun.:rolleyes:


Jesus fecking Christ!!! and what the feck is that last line all about?! :wenger:
 
Regarding this two state solution its highly unlikely to happen, Jews won't feel secured to entertain a thought like that, gone obselete considering the repurcussion the conflict has reached in the Arab and Islamic world. As for the Israeli leadership the current control over the gaza strip is an insurance policy with the premium increasing with time. Its all in a stale mate, some one has to compromise themselves if killings needs to stopped and its definitely not gonna be Israel.
 
Regarding this two state solution its highly unlikely to happen, Jews won't feel secured to entertain a thought like that, gone obselete considering the repurcussion the conflict has reached in the Arab and Islamic world. As for the Israeli leadership the current control over the gaza strip is an insurance policy with the premium increasing with time. Its all in a stale mate, some one has to compromise themselves if killings needs to stopped and its definitely not gonna be Israel.

I don't feckin' get it... Israel keeps lashing out with such harshness, and the Islamic and Arab nations will, at some point figure out how to crush the Israeli state. It's like a flea telling a herd of elephants to move on!
 
Vijay,

Your attempt to draw up similarities are at the best weak, if not juvenile justification.

Mumbia was about a conflict between two nations. It is a war over a mutual territory of land that both India and Pakistan's people claim ownership. The Palestinian people are just short of being imprisoned by the Israeli government.


I could go on for days as to differences between the two, but I am not going to waste my time on moronic ideological mind-fecks.


Bottom line: Vijay, if I was one of the family members of the murdered in Mumbia, I would be highly offended that you would aline the savage attacks of the Israeli forces with what happened in India.

Your a cheap and very desperate to save face. I need to stop and find some stomach medicine - you and your fecked up arguement is making me ill.

Why don't you just continue with supporting the policy of genocide.
Sorry, to have disturbed your fun.:rolleyes:


Jesus fecking Christ!!! and what the feck is that last line all about?!

Glad they've let you out of the school early.

Save your preaching...none here are comparing Kashmir issue with the middle east and trying to score points, just pointed out the ideologies of all these radical groups remain the same.

Any one suffering from narcissist personality disorders usually project themselves as stromtroopers of compassion on internet in your case its the stolen ganja that does the trick unfortunately.
 
Regarding this two state solution its highly unlikely to happen, Jews won't feel secured to entertain a thought like that, gone obselete considering the repurcussion the conflict has reached in the Arab and Islamic world. As for the Israeli leadership the current control over the gaza strip is an insurance policy with the premium increasing with time. Its all in a stale mate, some one has to compromise themselves if killings needs to stopped and its definitely not gonna be Israel.

If there is no just 2 state solution the conflict will be seen for what it is, apartheid, the eventual result will be the same
 
The truth behind aggressive Israel at Gaza..?

Money..Power..Greed!!
the main reasons wars and aggresive invasions take place!

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4909.shtml

Imagine being energy dependent on a people you have persicuted, the negotiations would require respect and honour.
why trade with a rock throwing populous when you can just take what you want... stands to reason really!


of coarse there will be people on here who will try to insist that this is just a coincidence and that I am being xenophobic, but hey.
 
Glad they've let you out of the school early.

Save your preaching...none here are comparing Kashmir issue with the middle east and trying to score points, just pointed out the ideologies of all these radical groups remain the same.

Any one suffering from narcissist personality disorders usually project themselves as stromtroopers of compassion on internet in your case its the stolen ganja that does the trick unfortunately.

:rolleyes:

Glass houses Vijay, Glass houses. Narcissist personality disorder... as if supporting the slaughtering of hundreds of people is the higher (or shall I say, Chosen ) authority of enlightenment.

You haven't the slightest clue as to how people view your miopic slant on how to retaliate to your angry neighbors.

Don't you dare try and tag me with your biggest defect of character!
 
If there is no just 2 state solution the conflict will be seen for what it is, apartheid, the eventual result will be the same

The momentary fix to stop the killing should be Hamas issuing an apology for the random attacks, announcing an unconditional extended ceasefire and Israel gradually stepping in to the Gaza strip, start rehablitating the people by themselves and win their confidence to some extent. Over a period of time both sides would appreciate their stances and realize, peace, livelihood and human values count a lot more than religion and all would be in a better shape to negotiate things if they decide to take it across the table.

Still it cannot make the life of Jews in a Islamic world any easier but atleast it can improve their internal stablity and better the life of poor innocents caught in the crossfire.
 
:rolleyes:

Glass houses Vijay, Glass houses. Narcissist personality disorder... as if supporting the slaughtering of hundreds of people is the higher (or shall I say, Chosen ) authority of enlightenment.

You haven't the slightest clue as to how people view your miopic slant on how to retaliate to your angry neighbors.

Don't you dare try and tag me with your biggest defect of character!

Its not a myophic slant mate. As pointed out earlier you're trying to nitpick insignificant arguments by the technique you often use...counting corpses.
 
I support a 2 state solution with the Palestinians controlling the West bank and Gaza strip, no settlements are to remain, the Palestinians should have full sovereignty over their borders, air and sea space, a compensation package to be worked out for the refugees in exchange for waving the right of return and join sovereignty over Jerusalem. There would also need to be built a travel corridor between the two halves of the Palestinian state

This would not work in isolation as the Palestinian state you propose would be in no way self-sufficient. To make it workable there would have to be a robust trade agreement in place with its neighbours (mainly Israel) and agreements regarding energy and movement of people around the region. Basically, Israel would have to provide for the Palestinian state in the short to medium term. And as much as I would like to see a country do that solely out of the goodness of its heart, it's unreasonable to expect this without it retaining significant political influence in the territory.

A possible work around would be to share the burden with other neighbouring states if they co-operate, or to find some way to compensate Israel for effectively subsidising the founding of a new nation.

Forgive me I do not know the geography of the region all that well, but why can't Gaza and the West Bank be treated as two separate entities rather than one unified Palestinian state?
 
Uprising in India against British was all about unarmed resistence, cannot understand how you can equate it with terrorism. Even armed resistence sounds okay as long as it affects only the military targets.

Did any one ever blame Palestinians for the Mumbai debacle?

Care to elaborate?





The problem here is many here including you have a tunnel vision the chaos in middle east is related to a just a million and half people trapped on an isolated land mass, but choose to ignore the fact that radical muslim factions all over the world have latched on to that long back and Jews might end up countering another holocaust, even if they slip down even by a yard. Whether you accept it or not the struggle for an independent Palestine is equated up there with the worst of radical Jihadi factions for all unfortunate reasons.

The thread on Mumbai attacks are already in this forum, no sane person would ever imagine all Muslims/Arabs are mindless forget about posting it here ...may be I am getting a knee jerk reaction from a muslim not able to grasp the point!

To be honest I can't understand what you are trying to say so I can't respond to your comments.
 
Vijay, apologies for my abuse earlier, looking back I misread your post as a Jews-run-America rant

This would not work in isolation as the Palestinian state you propose would be in no way self-sufficient. To make it workable there would have to be a robust trade agreement in place with its neighbours (mainly Israel) and agreements regarding energy and movement of people around the region. Basically, Israel would have to provide for the Palestinian state in the short to medium term. And as much as I would like to see a country do that solely out of the goodness of its heart, it's unreasonable to expect this without it retaining significant political influence in the territory.

It's not that unrealistic, Israel already provides much of the West Bank's employment, it works alright when there's a truce, and with a permanent peace it would work much better, since the Israelis would be less worried about suicide bombers and the Palestinians wouldn't be harassed and humiliated on their way to work. A bigger issue is water, which Israel takes more than its fair share of, and which is only going to cause more trouble as the region dries up.

A possible work around would be to share the burden with other neighbouring states if they co-operate, or to find some way to compensate Israel for effectively subsidising the founding of a new nation.

Forgive me I do not know the geography of the region all that well, but why can't Gaza and the West Bank be treated as two separate entities rather than one unified Palestinian state?

They won't accept a Balkanised state. Despite major political and tribal divisions, Palestinian nationalism is predicated on a notion of single peoplehood. Mozza's corridor is the only solution.

The point is that Israel, for all the difficulty of its situation, has succeeded in changing the terms of the debate so that Palestinian sovereignty in the territories is the issue - not ownership of Israel proper. That's what Fatah has (probably) come to accept, and Hamas hasn't. It's already a major concession, before any bargaining begins over settlements, Jerusalem, right of return etc. Asking them to accept the splitting of the state on top of that is a bridge too far, it's not going to happen.

By the way I attempted to answer your point about 'segregation' here Mike.

What I meant was that Palestinians can’t win over the Israeli public opinion. The situation is not hopeless at all for the Palestinians. Israel may have the upper hand right now, but the status quo could change very quickly should Iran go nuclear or a country like Saudi Arabia or Egypt organize themselves better militarily and economically then the Palestinians would have a very strong ally in the region. To talk about victors and losers is a bit premature. I don’t think anyone in the Middle East would accept a peace deal dictated by one side.

Israel has nuclear weapons, and the place is tiny - a nuclear attack by Iran would likely obliterate the Palestinians as well as the Israelis, not to mention being suicidal. At some point they're going to have to accept the permanence of the state, like most of the Sunni states (including, very unofficially, Saudi) already have.

It's 60 years old now. One day all the Palestinians who were born in Palestine, and the last pre-Israel Zionists, will be gone. Already fourth-generation Israelis are being born. In what way does a kid born to three generations of Israelis have no claim to the land? You might as well tell the Australians and Americans to go back to Europe.

As I said before, the only existential threat to Israel - short of a pan-regional nuclear apocalypse - is demographic. The ultra-orthodox have so many children that in a century or two it's hard to see how a modern, secular state will still be there, unless they start doing some Chinese-style birth-control shit.
 
If you eat the food, drink the water your enemy permits and live on handouts from nations you despise. This is living on your knees. How is the dying on your feet plan working? If it includes your children dying in their beds I suggest going to plan B.I don't think waiting Israel out is working either. Which is why I contrast Europe post war with Israel/Palestine?

Exactly, but the Palestinians aren't accepting the situation, they are fighting for their basic human rights. You can't seriously be telling me that you blame the Palestinians for the murder of their children in their own beds. What kind of world of would we be living if people just accepted oppression. I doubt your “proposition” will get much support amongst Palestinians.
 
Israel has nuclear weapons, and the place is tiny - a nuclear attack by Iran would likely obliterate the Palestinians as well as the Israelis, not to mention being suicidal. At some point they're going to have to accept the permanence of the state, like most of the Sunni states (including, very unofficially, Saudi) already have.

It's 60 years old now. One day all the Palestinians who were born in Palestine, and the last pre-Israel Zionists, will be gone. Already fourth-generation Israelis are being born. In what way does a kid born to three generations of Israelis have no claim to the land? You might as well tell the Australians and Americans to go back to Europe.

As I said before, the only existential threat to Israel - short of a pan-regional nuclear apocalypse - is demographic. The ultra-orthodox have so many children that in a century or two it's hard to see how a modern, secular state will still be there, unless they start doing some Chinese-style birth-control shit.

No-one in their right minds wants to see nuclear bombs go off anywhere in the world let alone Israel. What I meant by my comment was if Iran achieved its nuclear goal then they would become a serious player in the peace process. Most Arab countries and Iran are happy to recognize Israel as long as Israel withdraws to its pre-1967 borders. This is the Saudi plan proposed in 2002 and adopted by the whole Arab league, just to dispel the myth that Israel has no partner in the peace process. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1844214.stm

The problem is there are too many hardliners in Israel who whole heartedly believe that they are the chosen people of god and they see no reason to negotiate with the Palestinians who they see as nothing more than an insignificant pest that should be exterminated a.s.a.p. They believe that the whole region was promised to them by the divine and that soon they will expand to a Greater Israel. http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2006/08/08/greater_israels.jpg
 
The problem is with the Saudi plan is the 'right of return' - how do you interpret UNGA Resolution 194? In particular, how do you interpret Article 11:

"Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."
 
No-one in their right minds wants to see nuclear bombs go off anywhere in the world let alone Israel. What I meant by my comment was if Iran achieved its nuclear goal then they would become a serious player in the peace process. Most Arab countries and Iran are happy to recognize Israel as long as Israel withdraws to its pre-1967 borders. This is the Saudi plan proposed in 2002 and adopted by the whole Arab league, just to dispel the myth that Israel has no partner in the peace process. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1844214.stm

The problem is there are too many hardliners in Israel who whole heartedly believe that they are the chosen people of god and they see no reason to negotiate with the Palestinians who they see as nothing more than an insignificant pest that should be exterminated a.s.a.p. They believe that the whole region was promised to them by the divine and that soon they will expand to a Greater Israel. http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2006/08/08/greater_israels.jpg

Religious Jews are hardly the whole problem, any more than fundamentalist Muslims are the whole problem. The religious have more clout than they should because Israel's crap proportional representation system lets small minority groups act as kingmakers. But for every Greater Israel nutjob, there's a Hamas/Islamic Jihad nutjob who thinks God will give the Palestinians the whole country.

I've never understood why the 'Chosen People' thing winds people up so much. Yeah, hardcore religious Jews think they're better than everyone else, but pretty much all hardcore religious/nationalist types think they're better than everyone else. Hardcore Islamists think they're on God's side and everyone else is an infidel, and they too have specifically religious reasons for wanting Jerusalem in Muslim hands. Hardcore American and Russian and Japanese and all other nationalists think their culture is better than anyone else's, and the religious ones tend to think their country was chosen by God for a unique destiny.

But Israeli intransigence in negotiations isn't really due to the religious, it's due to an understandably fearful (largely secular) population, and (secular) politicians who know Israel has the upper hand militarily, and that the longer they hold out the more settlements they'll have to bargain with, and as such see no reason to blink first. I agree with you that this is short-sighted and that their advantage in power won't last forever. But Hamas' position is as unrealistic as theirs is complacent.

Amir said:
Well, Israel is definately a racist country in some way. I mean, the national anthem alone says it all, one of its lines mentions 'a jewish heart'

Interesting translation of nefesh. Think you've got the first and second lines mixed up mate.
 
I swear we have had these arguments before again and again. Anyway, here's to a two-state solution. Heaven knows when that will be though.

Not before Israel butchers more women and children.


_____________________________________________

I offer a moment of my day, today. Coming home from a long day at work, my daughter is sobbing in her room.

The nearly 12 year old, very bright child, did a 15 page project on Israel. (And no, I didn't offer and snippets of my displeasure for the way Israel handles situations such as the current news. I am certain it will get a top grade.)


Anyhow, I come in and she's crying because of what she had seen on CNN, children of Palestine blown to bits.


I, now, will need to keep the child from the tv through the weekend because she is probably feeling like a hypocrite for doing a report on how rich in culture and spiritual the Jewish people can be.


______________________________________

Just to add something about the Hammas or otherwise Palestinians. As I watched some of the news (after the kid went to bed) the leader of the Hammas nut-bags was shown to be trying to provoke the incoming President Barack Obama.

He must take Obama for an idiot. Maybe he didn't hear that Obama is a Harvard Law Alumni?

Then a female legislature from Palestine comes on to be interviewed. Ms. Hanan is harping on the same old bullshit that she had a year or two ago.

When will the people on both sides decide to change up the failing rhetoric?
 
Just to add something about the Hammas or otherwise Palestinians. As I watched some of the news (after the kid went to bed) the leader of the Hammas nut-bags was shown to be trying to provoke the incoming President Barack Obama.

He must take Obama for an idiot. Maybe he didn't hear that Obama is a Harvard Law Alumni?

Then a female legislature from Palestine comes on to be interviewed. Ms. Hanan is harping on the same old bullshit that she had a year or two ago.

When will the people on both sides decide to change up the failing rhetoric?


Please tell me you're not just figuring this out. The one just taken out by IDF turned his own child into a siucide bomber. Not to mention (I know you have a mildly over inflated opinion of Obama :lol:) but you don't actually think Obama will have an affect on these extremist whack jobs do you?
 
Please tell me you're not just figuring this out. The one just taken out by IDF turned his own child into a siucide bomber. Not to mention (I know you have a mildly over inflated opinion of Obama :lol:) but you don't actually think Obama will have an affect on these extremist whack jobs do you?

No, I don't.

BTW, how dare you mock my adoration for the 2nd coming of Christ.:p
 
From the Daily Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...East-problem---and-hed-be-foolish-to-try.html

Saturday 03 January 2009

Website of the Telegraph Media Group
Even Obama can't solve the Middle East problem - and he'd be foolish to try

Hopes are pinned on President-Elect Obama to fix the Middle East crisis, but without strong leaders on either side, he doesn't stand a chance, argues our Diplomatic Editor

By David Blair
Last Updated: 11:28PM GMT 02 Jan 2009

The smoke billowing over Gaza serves, among much else, as a bitter warning for Barack Obama. As Israel's onslaught on Hamas strongholds enters its second week, with key leaders of the radical Islamist movement now singled out as targets, the Holy Land is locked in a new spiral of conflict.
Sewage from shattered mains runs in the streets of Gaza City, while tanks and infantry mass at the borders, preparing for a possible invasion. And the world's leaders are turning to the one man who they believe could break the cycle of retaliation and push Israel and the Palestinians into achieving a comprehensive peace agreement – President-Elect Obama.
With their love of acronyms, European diplomats pepper their documents with references to the "MEPP" – the Middle East Peace Process. They, and others, want the new president to place it first on his to-do list, to make this quest the number-one priority of his foreign policy.
But look at the situation from Obama's point of view. The agony of Gaza, and of Israeli towns under attack from Palestinian rockets, drives home an uncomfortable truth: a viable peace agreement is almost certainly impossible, at least in the medium term.
Safe in the knowledge that they will bear no responsibility for failure, European leaders can afford to urge Obama to pursue the "MEPP". But why should the world's most powerful man waste effort on an enterprise that cannot succeed? Why should he risk almost certain failure?
Sir Nigel Sheinwald, the British Ambassador to Washington, provided a more realistic forecast of Obama's likely approach in a detailed assessment of the next president, leaked to The Daily Telegraph last year. "The MEPP is unlikely to be a top priority for Obama," wrote Sir Nigel. "But he would pursue it reasonably vigorously."
As he ponders the issues, Obama will doubtless reflect on the searing experience of the last Democrat in the White House. Bill Clinton made the quest for a Middle East settlement a central theme of his presidency. Yet after eight years of diplomatic effort, he was driven to a rare confession of powerlessness.
A few days before Clinton handed over the presidency in January 2001, Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader, rang the White House to thank him for his efforts. "We will never forget you, Mr President," said Arafat. "You are a great leader."
"I am not a great man," replied Clinton. "I am a failure – and you have made me one."
Six months earlier, Clinton had brought Israel and Arafat closer to a settlement than ever before. Ehud Barak, now defence minister but then Israel's prime minister, joined Arafat at a summit in Camp David that could have broken the mould of history. In the log cabins of the presidential retreat, the two leaders finally confronted the intractable problems at the heart of their conflict.
These "core issues", as diplomats term them, can be summed up in four words: borders, settlers, refugees, Jerusalem. Put simply, any peace agreement has to decide the borders of a future Palestinian state; the future of Jewish settlers living in the West Bank; the fate of the Palestinian refugees who were driven from Israel at its birth in 1948; and the division of Jerusalem into two national capitals.
On the eighth day of the summit – and with no progress made – Barak met Clinton shortly before midnight. This highly charged conversation came close to changing the course of history.
For the first time, the Israeli prime minister laid out everything he was willing to concede. There would be a Palestinian state covering 91 per cent of the West Bank, with the largest Jewish settlements being absorbed into Israel and the rest dismantled. Most remarkably of all, Barak became the first Israeli leader to concede the division of Jerusalem, which his country officially describes as its "eternal, undivided capital". He broke this taboo by offering to give the Palestinians full sovereignty over seven areas of the city.
After their conversation, Clinton summoned Arafat to lay out what he considered a genuine breakthrough. He did everything he could to sway the Palestinian leader. One aide described how the President was "cajoling, persuading" and "using the full range of the piano board".
Yet the meeting ended with Arafat unconvinced. His rejection of Barak's offer was conveyed on the following day. Clinton's response was blunt. "You are leading your people and the region to a catastrophe," he told Arafat. Two months later, the Second Palestinian Intifada broke out, and the two sides have been locked in conflict ever since.
This sequence is central to Israel's narrative of recent events. The official Israeli argument can be summarised thus: "We offered the Palestinians peace at Camp David, but they chose war."
There is a good deal of truth in this, but it is far from the whole picture. Arafat had warned against holding the Camp David summit, predicting that an agreement would not be reached and that failure would spark more violence. His "no" may not have been final – while Barak's own sincerity is open to question. He may have been gambling on a Palestinian rejection, knowing that he could never have implemented what he had offered.
But Obama will have noted that eight years of American diplomacy succeeded only in bringing the Palestinian and Israeli horses to water; even the superpower could not make them drink. And if that was the situation back in 2000, the chances of a settlement are even slighter today. At Camp David, the Palestinians had a leader, in the shape of Yasser Arafat, who could implement any agreement he signed. For all his many faults – including the fact that he was a lying fantasist who saw terrorism as a tool of policy – Arafat was a worthwhile interlocutor.
Today, by contrast, the Palestinian national movement is split between its official leader, President Mahmoud Abbas, and the extremists of Hamas. Israel deals with Abbas – and peace talks addressing all of the "core issues" have been taking place for more than a year. Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister and a candidate for the premiership in the election due on February 10, has served as Israel's chief negotiator, meeting her Palestinian counterparts two or three times a week.
But even if Israel signed a comprehensive peace agreement with Abbas, no one believes it could be implemented. Abbas, despised by many Palestinians as a Western stooge, simply does not have the stature to enact any deal. Hamas would doubtless condemn a settlement and render it stillborn. The civil war between this divided leadership means there is no worthwhile negotiating partner on the Palestinian side of the table.
Israeli officials stress this point – while overlooking the fact that much the same could be said of their own political scene. More to the point, any viable peace agreement would compel Israel to evacuate most of the 280,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank, and some of the 180,000 in East Jerusalem. A large core of religious settlers would not go quietly. When Israel left Gaza in 2005, withdrawing a mere 8,000 settlers, it took 45,000 police and cost $2.5 billion. Removing most of the West Bank settlements would be a mammoth undertaking, requiring immense cost and effort.
In this case, the blame for the obstacle to peace rests firmly with Israel. For decades, the government has fecklessly increased the number of West Bank settlers, making its own task in the event of a peace settlement steadily harder. When Barak made his offer, there were 190,000. Today, there are 90,000 more. The illegal settlement of land that Israel may be required to give up is wholly counter-productive. But undoing this folly would require political leadership of a truly Churchillian kind.
Instead, Israel's new prime minister after February's election will probably be either Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of the Right-wing Likud party, or Tzipi Livni, from the centrist Kadima party. Netanyahu, who does not believe in a Palestinian state, would make a peace agreement even harder to achieve. Livni, who does believe in the need for one, lacks the stature to enact a deal, even if she could manage to find a credible Palestinian negotiating partner.
Obama may be the world's most powerful man, but even America cannot choose the leaders on either side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Until politicians emerge on both sides who can truly lead their people, the carnage will continue.

I didn't know this about Clinton, Barak and Arafat. Now even if Obama can get an agreement between Israel and Palestine, which the article says would be more difficult than 8 years ago, what about all the rest of the middle east - would they accept an agreement between the two or would they continue to be antagonistic towards the existence of Israel?
 
Money..Power..Greed!!
the main reasons wars and aggresive invasions take place!

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4909.shtml

of coarse there will be people on here who will try to insist that this is just a coincidence and that I am being xenophobic, but hey.
You don't even try to offer a single piece of evidence that the invasion is in any way related to the current Israeli military campaign in Gaza. Just an internet article from 2006, written by a graduate student using a pseudonym. And as far as I can tell there has been no change in the situation about the gas - Israel was in negotiations to purchase it all through 2007, but apparently the deal fell through when, among other issues, Israel's proposed purchase price was rejected as being too low.

So, coincidence? Actually there's not a shred of evidence that there's even the slightest relation. I can't find anything to that effect in the Palestinian press (English-language versions of course), or in the mainstream media. Although as you point out in another thread, the "MSM" is all owned and run by Jews, so of course they will have conspired to keep it a secret.

So, are you being xenophobic? No, you're just not making any sense.
 
I support a 2 state solution with the Palestinians controlling the West bank and Gaza strip, no settlements are to remain, the Palestinians should have full sovereignty over their borders, air and sea space, a compensation package to be worked out for the refugees in exchange for waving the right of return and join sovereignty over Jerusalem. There would also need to be built a travel corridor between the two halves of the Palestinian state

Fearless proposes ethnic cleansing


Looks like you two have more in common than you care to admit. Territory exchange would help in adjusting borders according to current demography thus minimising the suffering in population exchanges.

Your insistance that there'll "have to be a corridor" between the WB and GS
suggests that you're more open to taking territory than handing anything in return. As for compensating refugees, since you are clearly after a comprehensive Arab-Israel deal let the Arabs compensate Israel for the 1 million Jews they expelled in the 1940's and 50's. That might help Israel to be more generous towards the Palestinians who tried to annihilate Israel and found themselves in refugee camps.
 
Looks like you two have more in common than you care to admit. Territory exchange would help in adjusting borders according to current demography thus minimising the suffering in population exchanges.

Your insistance that there'll "have to be a corridor" between the WB and GS
suggests that you're more open to taking territory than handing anything in return. As for compensating refugees, since you are clearly after a comprehensive Arab-Israel deal let the Arabs compensate Israel for the 1 million Jews they expelled in the 1940's and 50's. That might help Israel to be more generous towards the Palestinians who tried to annihilate Israel and found themselves in refugee camps.
The Palestinians have already given up the territories lost in 48, thats your land swap for the corridor, far more space then the road will take.

Population exchanges won't happen, if the Palestinian citizens of Israel really are equal how can you be treating them differently from other Israelis and kicking them out of their country? Are they Israelis so equal under the law or are they Palestinians to be treated differently to protect Israels Jewish majority?

The Jewish refugees should be compensated
 
The Palestinians have already given up the territories lost in 48, thats your land swap for the corridor, far more space then the road will take.

Population exchanges won't happen, if the Palestinian citizens of Israel really are equal how can you be treating them differently from other Israelis and kicking them out of their country? Are they Israelis so equal under the law or are they Palestinians to be treated differently to protect Israels Jewish majority?

The Jewish refugees should be compensated

Nobody's kicking out anybody Mozza

I'm just asking that Jordan aka Palestine get involved instead of pretending it's a seperate country .
 
Exactly, but the Palestinians aren't accepting the situation, they are fighting for their basic human rights. You can't seriously be telling me that you blame the Palestinians for the murder of their children in their own beds. What kind of world of would we be living if people just accepted oppression. I doubt your “proposition” will get much support amongst Palestinians.

The point at which you can not put an army in the field to fight for you. The point at which you hide amongst your women and children in order to continue your fight. The point at which they protect you (your goals ambitions etc) by being paraded dead and dismembered. Hamas is not interested in the human condition of Palestinians. If they were better tactics than firing rockets at Israel exist.

What is the point beyond that, which causes you pause to ask the bigger questions.

Do I want to live in a state where the leaders of it are prepared to do these things?

Is it even worth it given the price being paid?

If there is no obvious pay off /or victory for doing these things then why continue?

That is what I am getting at and I suspect that most people would recognise it. The point where it is no longer in anyone’s interests to continue, sometimes right or wrong is not the point. You have lost and bringing yourself to that understanding is the braver thing to do. In the interest of your children’s future. I am saying that we are well past this now and the suffering is in the hands of those who wish to continue to suffer, for as long as they wish to. I can't see any other way.
 
I've never understood why the 'Chosen People' thing winds people up so much. Yeah, hardcore religious Jews think they're better than everyone else, but pretty much all hardcore religious/nationalist types think they're better than everyone else. Hardcore Islamists think they're on God's side and everyone else is an infidel, and they too have specifically religious reasons for wanting Jerusalem in Muslim hands. Hardcore American and Russian and Japanese and all other nationalists think their culture is better than anyone else's, and the religious ones tend to think their country was chosen by God for a unique destiny.

On the face of it those do look comparable ideologies of superiority. But I think I can shed some light on why the claim of Judaism, that the Jews are god's chosen people, is often found particularly galling.

Judaism is not a proselytising religion, it does not seek to convert others to its beliefs, and this can be seen as a positive thing in most circumstances (I know it is technically possible to convert to Judaism, but not common). However, it also has the implication that the Jews are god's chosen people, and as such are intrinsically 'better' in some way, and crucially that is unattainable by others.

Contrast this with claims made by Muslims and Christians of being on the side of god, and other claims of cultural superiority. The subtle difference is that these ideologies say 'yes we are better, but you can join us and be better too, if only you'd join our religion / adopt our cultural ways'. They don't imply that their fortune in being 'better' is unattainable by others.

So, in a perverse sort of way, I think it's Judaism's reluctance to try and garner converts that fuels the annoyance at the claim of being 'god's chosen people'.
 
The Palestinians have already given up the territories lost in 48, thats your land swap for the corridor, far more space then the road will take.

Population exchanges won't happen, if the Palestinian citizens of Israel really are equal how can you be treating them differently from other Israelis and kicking them out of their country? Are they Israelis so equal under the law or are they Palestinians to be treated differently to protect Israels Jewish majority?

The Jewish refugees should be compensated

Are you serious? The Palestinians gave up territories in 1948? They fought a genocidal war against the Jews and lost. They are lucky as things are that the victors didn't hand them the same treatment they had in store for us had they won.

Going back to the current situation, I'm not interested in kicking anyone out of his home. I think the border should be redrwan along what were the 1967 borders. Some of the Palestinians who ended up on the Israeli side after 1948 will reunite with their brothers in the WB in return to Jewish settlements incorporation to the State of Israel. No wonder the Arabs are not interested, knowing the they're better off in racist Israel than anywhere else.
 
On the face of it those do look comparable ideologies of superiority. But I think I can shed some light on why the claim of Judaism, that the Jews are god's chosen people, is often found particularly galling.

Judaism is not a proselytising religion, it does not seek to convert others to its beliefs, and this can be seen as a positive thing in most circumstances (I know it is technically possible to convert to Judaism, but not common). However, it also has the implication that the Jews are god's chosen people, and as such are intrinsically 'better' in some way, and crucially that is unattainable by others.

Contrast this with claims made by Muslims and Christians of being on the side of god, and other claims of cultural superiority. The subtle difference is that these ideologies say 'yes we are better, but you can join us and be better too, if only you'd join our religion / adopt our cultural ways'. They don't imply that their fortune in being 'better' is unattainable by others.

So, in a perverse sort of way, I think it's Judaism's reluctance to try and garner converts that fuels the annoyance at the claim of being 'god's chosen people'.

Wrong.

Anyone interested could convert to Judaism.
 
The point at which you can not put an army in the field to fight for you. The point at which you hide amongst your women and children in order to continue your fight. The point at which they protect you (your goals ambitions etc) by being paraded dead and dismembered. Hamas is not interested in the human condition of Palestinians. If they were better tactics than firing rockets at Israel exist.

What is the point beyond that, which causes you pause to ask the bigger questions.

Do I want to live in a state where the leaders of it are prepared to do these things?

Is it even worth it given the price being paid?

If there is no obvious pay off /or victory for doing these things then why continue?

That is what I am getting at and I suspect that most people would recognise it. The point where it is no longer in anyone’s interests to continue, sometimes right or wrong is not the point. You have lost and bringing yourself to that understanding is the braver thing to do. In the interest of your children’s future. I am saying that we are well past this now and the suffering is in the hands of those who wish to continue to suffer, for as long as they wish to. I can't see any other way.

It's well put. It's true there are a lot of displaced peoples around the world, many as a result of WWII. Most have reconciled themselves to it eventually and got on with their lives. I think much of the problem in the Arab-Israeli conflict lies in the combination of desperate poverty with an honour culture. Levantine Arab culture - to generalise somewhat - has many things going for it, but it's also a macho culture, where death is seen by many as preferable to admitting shame or defeat. Combine that with having a large number of poor, unemployed males with little to lose, humiliate them regularly, add religion into the mix, and you have a recipe for endless conflict - even if it's against what outsiders perceive as their interests.

Israeli culture lacks the same honour component - they will lose face if it means getting back prisoners, for instance - but it's also quite a macho culture. From the beginning they've had the attitude 'If they hit us, hit them back ten times as hard, it's the only language they understand'. It's a fight between two blokes who both assume the bravura of bullies to hide the fear and shame of perennial victims.
 
Not before Israel butchers more women and children.


_____________________________________________

I offer a moment of my day, today. Coming home from a long day at work, my daughter is sobbing in her room.

The nearly 12 year old, very bright child, did a 15 page project on Israel. (And no, I didn't offer and snippets of my displeasure for the way Israel handles situations such as the current news. I am certain it will get a top grade.)


Anyhow, I come in and she's crying because of what she had seen on CNN, children of Palestine blown to bits.


I, now, will need to keep the child from the tv through the weekend because she is probably feeling like a hypocrite for doing a report on how rich in culture and spiritual the Jewish people can be.



______________________________________

Just to add something about the Hammas or otherwise Palestinians. As I watched some of the news (after the kid went to bed) the leader of the Hammas nut-bags was shown to be trying to provoke the incoming President Barack Obama.

He must take Obama for an idiot. Maybe he didn't hear that Obama is a Harvard Law Alumni?

Then a female legislature from Palestine comes on to be interviewed. Ms. Hanan is harping on the same old bullshit that she had a year or two ago.

When will the people on both sides decide to change up the failing rhetoric?

That really brought me to tears, Bob. Thank goodness you have so far managed to keep her away from CNN reports on the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Imagine how the little one would feel about American and Christian culture as a whole.

Looks like Plech suggestion of strict birth control should be adopted not only in the ME.
 
Wrong.

Anyone interested could convert to Judaism.

I know, I said so in my post. But you have missed the point; I was trying to explain why it is seen to be a different sort of claim to that of Muslims, for example. And I think that is largely due to the perception of Judaism as insular, whether or not it actually is.
 
On the face of it those do look comparable ideologies of superiority. But I think I can shed some light on why the claim of Judaism, that the Jews are god's chosen people, is often found particularly galling.

Judaism is not a proselytising religion, it does not seek to convert others to its beliefs, and this can be seen as a positive thing in most circumstances (I know it is technically possible to convert to Judaism, but not common). However, it also has the implication that the Jews are god's chosen people, and as such are intrinsically 'better' in some way, and crucially that is unattainable by others.

Contrast this with claims made by Muslims and Christians of being on the side of god, and other claims of cultural superiority. The subtle difference is that these ideologies say 'yes we are better, but you can join us and be better too, if only you'd join our religion / adopt our cultural ways'. They don't imply that their fortune in being 'better' is unattainable by others.

So, in a perverse sort of way, I think it's Judaism's reluctance to try and garner converts that fuels the annoyance at the claim of being 'god's chosen people'.

Very good point, I think that's probably right. Pace Holyland, in most times and places Jews haven't encouraged conversion.

It seems so obvious though that this is a defensive reaction to being a precariously surviving, only half tolerated minority. Look at Roma gypsies, for instance - they have a similar exclusivity obsession, private language, purity laws etc. I've eaten in a Roma house - nice people, but they served us food and then wouldn't eat with us because they consider all non-Roma unclean. Their women weren't allowed to talk to me (though that might just be because I'm so damn sexy). At some level, though they liked us well enough and we were helping them in a big way, they considered us inferior. It's not that nice, but there's no point hating them for it or getting all defensive - it's the almost inevitable result of surviving as a tribe within a succession of different, dominant cultures.

Similarly, if a bunch of guys want to dress like eighteenth-century Poles, speak middle high German, and consider themselves superior, it's pointless to take offense. As for chauvinism among non-religious Jews, in my experience it's no different from what you get within any group - "They're just not very Christian, if you know what I mean"... "White men can't jump"... "Scummiest fans in the fecking world"... etc.
 
I know, I said so in my post. But you have missed the point; I was trying to explain why it is seen to be a different sort of claim to that of Muslims, for example. And I think that is largely due to the perception of Judaism as insular, whether or not it actually is.

I must have mistranslated the "Judaism reluctance..." bit in your last sentence then...

Anyway, the Druze don't allow converting to their religion at all and they are largely a lovely bunch...despite being "chosen" too.
 
Very good point, I think that's probably right. Pace Holyland, in most times and places Jews haven't encouraged conversion.

They don't encourage conversion, probably based on the logic that if you want to join our team then you really need to show that will is burning from within...Once you make up your mind though, we have a very effiecent legal team to tace care of all the fine transfer details.
 
I must have mistranslated the "Judaism reluctance..." bit in your last sentence then...

Anyway, the Druze don't allow converting to their religion at all and they are largely a lovely bunch...despite being "chosen" too.

:confused: I'm quite confused now. You seem to think I'm in some way criticising Judaism? I'm merely trying to explain the reasons behind its perception. I think Plech is right in his analysis that it is an understandable defensive reaction to living in a potentially hostile community at large.

No one's claiming Judaism has less lovely people than Christianity or Islam...well some people do, but not me.
 
They don't encourage conversion, probably based on the logic that if you want to join our team then you really need to show that will is burning from within...Once you make up your mind though, we have a very effiecent legal team to tace care of all the fine transfer details.

The ethnic/religious thing makes it rather unfair on converts, though. If my missus wanted to convert, she'd have to study the religion, learn Hebrew, eventually go before the Beth Din and jump through a load of hoops, including assenting that she believed in God. Whereas I, with my sketchy knowledge of the Torah, distinctly ropey Hebrew and atheist beliefs, get in - and could make aliyah - just on the basis of parentage.

I raised this with some rabbinical spacker a while back, and he said it was similar to gaining citizenship of a state: you have to convince them your heart is in it, whereas a native can be an anarchist who hates his own country but still gets to belong to it by virtue of birth.

:confused: I'm quite confused now. You seem to think I'm in some way criticising Judaism? I'm merely trying to explain the reasons behind its perception. I think Plech is right in his analysis that it is an understandable defensive reaction to living in a potentially hostile community at large.

No one's claiming Judaism has less lovely people than Christianity or Islam...well some people do, but not me.

I don't think HR thought that, you just have to get used to his sabra brusqueness

Right, enough. Israel/Judaism threads have this strange power to suck me back in, shared only by rhyming threads and 4-4-2/4-3-3 bickering sessions.
 
Money..Power..Greed!!
the main reasons wars and aggresive invasions take place!

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4909.shtml

Imagine being energy dependent on a people you have persicuted, the negotiations would require respect and honour.
why trade with a rock throwing populous when you can just take what you want... stands to reason really!


of coarse there will be people on here who will try to insist that this is just a coincidence and that I am being xenophobic, but hey.

must be true:

last para: "Jake Bower is the pseudonym of a postgraduate historian in the UK who specialises in the strategic and tactical framework behind American foreign interventions."

Jack Bauer undercover! :cool:
 
:confused: I'm quite confused now. You seem to think I'm in some way criticising Judaism? I'm merely trying to explain the reasons behind its perception. I think Plech is right in his analysis that it is an understandable defensive reaction to living in a potentially hostile community at large.

No one's claiming Judaism has less lovely people than Christianity or Islam...well some people do, but not me.

Never mind- I didn't mean to say that you criticized Judaism. I just wanted to make it clear that Judaism accepts conversion just as Muslims and Christians do only that Jews don't try and convince people to switch teams. I think that's the main difference, and perhaps you're right in saying that was detrimental to Jews in how this approach has been perceived.

I also think thaty down the years converting to Islam/Christianity usually meant joining the victorious forces with the alternative being pretty grim, whereas the appeal of converting to Judaism over the last 2000 years was limited to taking (a passive) part in pogroms.