So umm the Israeli Embassy being attacked by huge mobs in Egypt(no staff have been injured - last I heard)...Police forced to open fire(no deaths as of yet).
A people's Revolution
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
How is your media reporting the meltdown by Turkey? Do they/you care? Or do you think, this is Turkey doing a bit of sabre-rattling, saving face, and then quietly things will go back to 'normal'
All the focus on Iran and they're losing Turkey and Egypt. Couldn't be much worse, they're the ones that actually matter security-wise.
This is the main story here, and "experts" continuously give opinions ranging from "feck 'em" to "we're royally fecked".
I reckon things aren't going to be the same anytime soon. I also agree with the opinion that the apology Turkey demanded would not have made a difference (whether they deserved one is another point) because things had started going downhill prior to the flotilla incident. It seems like a claculated strategic decision by the Islamists there to establish a role as a ME superpower and we all know what's the best way to become an Arab World hero.
Possibly something to do with those in power finally realizing Turkey is never going to be accepted into the EU?* So they've decided to turn their attention more and more towards the ME....
*probably a good thing these days
I cannot see things going back to normal anytime soon and that's a real shame because all of this just seems petty and avoidable. I don't think the people of Turkey and Israel have anything against one another and this is just politicians doing every mistake possible and dragging everyone into this stupid mess. There's probably no good time for conflict but this era of instability surely isn't the best time for f*cking about.
The EU were never going to let Turkey in. I can understand the frustration in Turkey, but I have no idea why they thought they'd be accepted in the first place.
Anyway, Erdogan's strategy of siding with Iran, Lybia and Syria has so far backfired. Considering recent events in Egypt it wouldn't come as a surprise if they were to become his next customers.
Anyway, Erdogan's strategy of siding with Iran, Lybia and Syria has so far backfired. Considering recent events in Egypt it wouldn't come as a surprise if they were to become his next customers.
Really weird...Turkey looked to be a bridge between the Arabs and the Israelis...infact a bridge between the arabs and the entire west.
Strategically located, potentially a big player as an emerging nation, it had pretty good relations with Israel(even military cooperation) and then over the past 12-18 months..all that trust and confidence building undone.
Suppose no one should be surprised, when it comes to the ME, things ending in a mess is pretty much par for course.
Strategically located, potentially a big player as an emerging nation, it had pretty good relations with Israel(even military cooperation) and then over the past 12-18 months..all that trust and confidence building undone.
Suppose no one should be surprised, when it comes to the ME, things ending in a mess is pretty much par for course.
Welcome back Roy. Haven't seen you around in ages. Hope you're well.
How about another 100 youngsters list?
Domestically Erdogan has played his cards wisely, and was patient enough to achieve control of domestic politics and the army. An Islamist Turkish administration was never going to maintain its close ties with Israel. Popularity in the Arab world is more important to Erdogan than ties with Israel, hence the patron of Gaza role he has taken and the habit of standing up to Israel.
Possibly something to do with those in power finally realizing Turkey is never going to be accepted into the EU?* So they've decided to turn their attention more and more towards the ME....
*probably a good thing these days
It's much more to do with finally getting the better of the generals. The Turkish military were the ones who had a big stake in the co-operation with Israel, now the government has finally achieved some control over them and is pretty much safe from the threat of a coup, they can change things. I don't think it's 'Islamism' as such (AK are fairly mild Islamists), but they're a popularist party and co-operation with Israel is unpopular with Turks.
It's true that both sides could be blamed for stupid gestures, but I agree with the opinion that the conflict was unavoidable no matter what Israel did.
Could be just me but there's something ironic about the Turks jumping on the Palestinian cause.
Welcome back Roy. Haven't seen you around in ages. Hope you're well.
How about another 100 youngsters list?
Hi mate, it has been ages! How are you?
About the lists, ah the good ol' days...
Not really doing any of that stuff anymore unfortunately, decided to go while still at the top at Leverkusen
Oh I definitely agree with that. The whole apology thing was never going to 'make things right'. Erdogan is definitely fishing for a conflict now. But I still don't think this started as a big plot of his to become 'leader of the Arabic world' or something of that sort. I think it started as something petty and mindless and he's just riding it now. That's how I think most of these things start, in politics and everyday life.
You got a point there, and some Israelis suggested highlighting the irony. That in turn also stinks of hypocricy, which I guess sums up politics nicely.
Not much "Islamist" about Turkey or it's present leadership. I reckon it's just an excuse to stir unwelcome emotions and try navigate away form the real issues facing Israel and the Middle East.
The Israel-Turkey thing is a shame, but it's the Israel-Egypt relationship that's the real worry now. For all it's problems it's been a good foundation for a quieter middle east over the last three decades. No idea where we're going with this. Easy to say it's just a few people protesting, but the whole string of revolutions was based on a few people protesting.
Are you suggesting that a "land for peace" formula isn't going to work around here?
An Israeli spring?
Demonstrations in Israel: An Israeli spring? | The Economist
"IF THE situation here remains unchanged," warns Avia Spivak, "we'll get the sort of violent protests they had in England." A professor of economics at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Mr Spivak was deputy governor of the Bank of Israel until 2006. Now he heads a team of economists advising the young leaders of a huge, inchoate social protest movement that has been demonstrating and camping out in city centres across Israel for much of the summer.
The movement, which has neither name nor structure, held its final event—for now—on the evening of September 3rd. It broke all records. Some 450,000 people thronged the streets of Tel Aviv and three other towns, all calling for social justice, affordable housing, cheaper basic food and better social services. The main rally, in Tel Aviv's State Square, was notable not only for its size but because State Square (a roundabout, in fact) is in Israel's swankiest shopping precinct—and yet not one shop was damaged or daubed.
It has been a well-behaved revolution, mainly of the young, educated middle class: couples with qualifications and jobs who still find it hard to make ends meet. Suddenly, hundreds of thousands of Israelis found themselves swept up in a fellowship of frustration.
One trigger may have been a class action brought by a retired accountant against a public company over a deal that he believed was unfair to shareholders. In June, in an out-of-court settlement, the company agreed to pay $45m. At the same time, but probably unconnected, a young husband and father suggested to his Facebook friends that they all stop buying cottage cheese at the inflated, cartel-driven price it was being sold for. Within weeks a countrywide boycott had almost halved the price. Two weeks later, a 25-year-old film-maker was evicted from her rented flat in Tel Aviv and told her Facebook friends that she was pitching a tent on Rothschild Boulevard, in the shadow of the bank and insurance buildings on either side. Soon there was no room to knock in another tent-peg.
Now, with the children back at school, the tent-dwellers are packing up. The movement’s leaders are preparing to spar with a government committee hastily set up by the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu. It is due to deliver its first clutch of recommendations within weeks. Its chairman, Manuel Trajtenberg, rejects Mr Netanyahu's trickle-down market philosophy.
Mr Netanyahu concedes that "corrections" are needed. "I know how hard it is to buy a flat or rent a flat," he says, "and that people don’t have enough for basics like education." But Israel’s economy has largely escaped the global turbulence, thanks, he says, to his policies. Mr Trajtenberg has been asked to make proposals within the limits of the state budget.
Mr Netanyahu and his ministers seem almost to echo the protesters in railing at the tycoonim (the word has been Hebraised), the score of super-rich Israeli families who control much of the economy, including former state-owned industries now privatised. "Crocodile tears," sniffs Hay Badra, a prominent protester. "Bibi invented the system."
Despite its numbers, the movement presents no immediate threat to Mr Netanyahu’s government. The protest leaders claim to speak for all types. But Israel’s West Bank settlers, religious Israelis and Russian immigrants, all key constituencies in his ruling coalition, have been markedly absent from the tent-cities.
Tzipi Livni, leader of the opposition, says her Kadima Party in effect endorses the protesters' demands. "The real solution to the economic malaise is the ballot box," she says. But an election may not come until 2013; time enough, say Mr Netanyahu's supporters, for him to show his empathy with the demonstrators.
Demonstrations in Israel: An Israeli spring? | The Economist
"IF THE situation here remains unchanged," warns Avia Spivak, "we'll get the sort of violent protests they had in England." A professor of economics at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Mr Spivak was deputy governor of the Bank of Israel until 2006. Now he heads a team of economists advising the young leaders of a huge, inchoate social protest movement that has been demonstrating and camping out in city centres across Israel for much of the summer.
The movement, which has neither name nor structure, held its final event—for now—on the evening of September 3rd. It broke all records. Some 450,000 people thronged the streets of Tel Aviv and three other towns, all calling for social justice, affordable housing, cheaper basic food and better social services. The main rally, in Tel Aviv's State Square, was notable not only for its size but because State Square (a roundabout, in fact) is in Israel's swankiest shopping precinct—and yet not one shop was damaged or daubed.
It has been a well-behaved revolution, mainly of the young, educated middle class: couples with qualifications and jobs who still find it hard to make ends meet. Suddenly, hundreds of thousands of Israelis found themselves swept up in a fellowship of frustration.
One trigger may have been a class action brought by a retired accountant against a public company over a deal that he believed was unfair to shareholders. In June, in an out-of-court settlement, the company agreed to pay $45m. At the same time, but probably unconnected, a young husband and father suggested to his Facebook friends that they all stop buying cottage cheese at the inflated, cartel-driven price it was being sold for. Within weeks a countrywide boycott had almost halved the price. Two weeks later, a 25-year-old film-maker was evicted from her rented flat in Tel Aviv and told her Facebook friends that she was pitching a tent on Rothschild Boulevard, in the shadow of the bank and insurance buildings on either side. Soon there was no room to knock in another tent-peg.
Now, with the children back at school, the tent-dwellers are packing up. The movement’s leaders are preparing to spar with a government committee hastily set up by the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu. It is due to deliver its first clutch of recommendations within weeks. Its chairman, Manuel Trajtenberg, rejects Mr Netanyahu's trickle-down market philosophy.
Mr Netanyahu concedes that "corrections" are needed. "I know how hard it is to buy a flat or rent a flat," he says, "and that people don’t have enough for basics like education." But Israel’s economy has largely escaped the global turbulence, thanks, he says, to his policies. Mr Trajtenberg has been asked to make proposals within the limits of the state budget.
Mr Netanyahu and his ministers seem almost to echo the protesters in railing at the tycoonim (the word has been Hebraised), the score of super-rich Israeli families who control much of the economy, including former state-owned industries now privatised. "Crocodile tears," sniffs Hay Badra, a prominent protester. "Bibi invented the system."
Despite its numbers, the movement presents no immediate threat to Mr Netanyahu’s government. The protest leaders claim to speak for all types. But Israel’s West Bank settlers, religious Israelis and Russian immigrants, all key constituencies in his ruling coalition, have been markedly absent from the tent-cities.
Tzipi Livni, leader of the opposition, says her Kadima Party in effect endorses the protesters' demands. "The real solution to the economic malaise is the ballot box," she says. But an election may not come until 2013; time enough, say Mr Netanyahu's supporters, for him to show his empathy with the demonstrators.
Semitic Spring may perhaps now be a more apt term, although we're well into the Fall now.
It is as much autumn as it could be for the protest in Israel. Two years ago we had Kadima in power and the standards of living weren't any better, nor were the economic prospects of middle-class Israelis. In fact Kadima hasn't gained any points in the polls held during the popular protests.
The protest is justified, but the strategy of blaming the government means nothing is going to change. It's not one administration's fault more than another. They all had a chance to change things, but this doesn't pay politically.
The protest is justified, but the strategy of blaming the government means nothing is going to change. It's not one administration's fault more than another. They all had a chance to change things, but this doesn't pay politically.
Egypt: Documents taken during raid on Israeli Embassy worthless - Israel News, Ynetnews
According to Egyptian daily al-Masri al-Youm, some of the papers included visa applications, electricity queries sent to the local power company, weapon license applications, and access forms to "sensitive areas."
A senior Egyptian security source said Sunday that Israel's claim regarding classified documents was "a conspiracy meant to escalate the situation."
The source said that the room which the mob was able to breach in the embassy's first floor was left unsecured, and the documents that were found there were "worthless."
"This was a trap for those who broke into the room, so Israel could drag Egypt into a diplomatic crisis by claiming that the embassy was compromised," the source maintained.
-----------------------------------------
So...according to the now free Egyptian press the violent raid on the embassy was in fact an Israeli conspiracy...
Have a nice spring, Avatar.
Angry crowd turns on journalists reporting embassy attack in Egypt - CNN.com
According to Egyptian daily al-Masri al-Youm, some of the papers included visa applications, electricity queries sent to the local power company, weapon license applications, and access forms to "sensitive areas."
A senior Egyptian security source said Sunday that Israel's claim regarding classified documents was "a conspiracy meant to escalate the situation."
The source said that the room which the mob was able to breach in the embassy's first floor was left unsecured, and the documents that were found there were "worthless."
"This was a trap for those who broke into the room, so Israel could drag Egypt into a diplomatic crisis by claiming that the embassy was compromised," the source maintained.
-----------------------------------------
So...according to the now free Egyptian press the violent raid on the embassy was in fact an Israeli conspiracy...
Have a nice spring, Avatar.
Angry crowd turns on journalists reporting embassy attack in Egypt - CNN.com
By 'according to the new free Egyptian press' do you mean a 'source' within just one of the many papers in the country?
Egyptians have good reason to be angry with Israel and Mubarak's dealings with them but an absolutely despicable way of expressing this anger. No excuses whatsoever.
The military council need to move change along and the Egyptian people need to temper their expectations of their revolution in the short term. Jobs aren't going to simply appear overnight, especially with the military still in charge and things in limbo regarding the government/trials etc.
Speaking to family back there, I'd encouraged that while the majority of Egyptians share the anger regarding Israel's policies, the overwhelming majority do not agree even slightly with the storming of the embassy.
Far too easy to simply label Erdogan an Islamist though. Don't see it.
Whether Egypt has valid reasons to be angry with Israel is irrelevant. Israel has a pile of reasons to be angry with Egypt, although Egyptians don't have to fear for their lives when they visit/stay in Israel (that until they're back in Egypt obviously). The anti-Israeli sentiments in the Egyptian press and the bizzare conspiracy theories date back to Mubarak's time and before so this is hardly an isolated incident (this one cracked me up: 'Mossad plotted to harm Egyptian fertility' - Israel News, Ynetnews)
I know for a fact that there are many Turks/Egyptians that are opposing the recent stance taken by their regimes towards Israel, but unfortunately he masses are easily incited by populist politicians. Erdogan is a dangerous one in that respect, particularly when he uses a mix of religion and nationalism in his quest to be a big player on the global arena.
Not all is lost just yet:
Why Golda Meir was right - Hurriyet Daily News
It has been more than two and a half years since Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan told to Israeli President Shimon Peres’s face, “You (Jews) know well how to kill.” Prime Minister Erdoğan has also declared more than a few times that the main obstacle to peace in this part of the world is Israel, once calling the Jewish state “a festering boil in the Middle East that spreads hate and enmity.” In this holy month of Ramadan full of blood on Muslim territories, let’s try to identify who are the ones who know well how to kill.
As the Syrian death count clicks every day to come close to 2,000, the Turkish-Kurdish death count does not stop, already over 40,000 since 1984, both adding to the big pool of blood called the Middle East. Only during this Ramadan, the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK’s, death toll has reached 50 in this Muslim Kurds vs. Muslim Turks war. This excludes the PKK casualties in Turkey and in northern Iraq due to Turkish military retaliation since they are seldom accurately reported.
Let’s speak of facts.
Sudan is not in the conventional Middle East, so let’s ignore the genocide there. Let’s ignore, also, the West Pakistani massacres in East Pakistan (Bangladesh) totaling 1.25 million in 1971. Or 200,000 deaths in Algeria in war between Islamists and the government in 1991-2006.
But a simple, strictly Middle East research will give you one million deaths in the all-Muslim Iran-Iraq war; 300,000 Muslim minorities killed by Saddam Hussein; 80,000 Iranians killed during the Islamic revolution; 25,000 deaths in 1970-71, the days of Black September, by the Jordanian government in its fight against the Palestinians; and 20,000 Islamists killed in 1982 by the elder al-Assad in Hama. The World Health Organization’s estimate of Osama bin Laden’s carnage in Iraq was already 150,000 a few years earlier.
In a 2007 research, Gunnar Heinsohn from the University of Bremen and Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum, found out that some 11 million Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, (0.3 percent) died during the six years of Arab war against Israel, or one out of every 315 fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent who perished were killed by fellow Muslims.
According to Mssrs. Heinsohn and Pipes, the grisly inventory finds the total number of deaths in conflicts all over the world since 1950 numbering around 85 million. Of that, the Muslim Arab deaths in the Arab-Israeli conflict were at 46,000 including 11,000 during Israel’s war of independence. That makes 0.05 percent of all deaths in all conflicts, or 0.4 percent of all Arab deaths in the Arab-Israeli conflict.
In another calculation ignoring “small” massacres like the one that goes on in Syria and other deaths during the Arab Spring, only Saddam’s Iraq, Jordan, the elder al-Assad’s Syria, Iran-Iraq war, the bin Laden campaign in Iraq, the Iranian Islamic revolution and the Turkish-Kurdish conflict caused 1.65 million Muslim deaths by Muslims compared to less than 50,000 deaths in the Arab-Israeli conflict since 1950, including fatalities during and after Operation Cast Lead which came after the Heinsohn-Pipes study. For those who don’t have a calculator ready at their desks, allow me to tell: 50,000 is three percent of 1.65 million.
Golda Meir, the fourth prime minister of Israel, or rather the “Mother of Israel,” had a perfectly realistic point when she said that peace in the Middle
East would only be possible “when Arabs love their children more than they hate us.”
That's quite possiblly the silliest article I've read in a long time.
In case we've forgotten their struggle:
Yemeni protesters 'fired on by troops' | World news | The Guardian
Yemeni protesters 'fired on by troops' | World news | The Guardian
Live Stream of the Global Protest against Wall St. and I suppose the world banking/corporate industries.
NYC globalrevolution - live streaming video powered by Livestream
There is another live stream for a similar protest in Paris happening now, as well.
NYC globalrevolution - live streaming video powered by Livestream
There is another live stream for a similar protest in Paris happening now, as well.
At least a quarter of a million Israelis have staged marches over the rising cost of living.
The largest protest was in Tel Aviv where police said at least 200,000 people were on the streets, while another 30,000 marched in Jerusalem.
In one of biggest waves of protests in decades in Israel, demonstrators are demanding government action to reduce the cost of housing and food.
Everyone else is protesting for political freedom and the Jews up-rise over the cost of living.
Looks like you lot are on the bandwagon, bigot.
Situation in Yemen got worse over the last few days. I was offered to go work in Aden for a few months (humanitarian sector), but I'm not sure it's a wise move to fly over there at the moment.
I tried to warn HR that this was coming ... what .. at least 5 years ago, or more.
So, many people for so long wished for peace. The ones that wanted peace the least were the people in charge of Israel.
It wasn't the most difficult outcome to figure out.
Thanks for the warning. BTW, I thought you were a big Tzipi Livni fan, Bob. Didn't she and Olmert want peace? They were in charge not that long ago.
Egypt floods smuggling tunnel; 3 killed - Israel News, Ynetnews
Is it possible that the "popular" junta is not as useless as that US puppet Mubarak?
Is it possible that the "popular" junta is not as useless as that US puppet Mubarak?
BBC News - US ambassador Robert Ford pelted with tomatoes in Syria
And that's why our ambassador shouldn't be in Syria.
And that's why our ambassador shouldn't be in Syria.
Got to admire the ME strategy of that promising Obama bloke you have in charge.