Imagine your surprise, it was directed to the ridiculous notion that the MEs borders could be reshaped in response to this wave of revolutions - Egypt had borders pretty much where they are now whilst the near entirety of Europe was still nomadic, it is of the most unified countries out there.
A people's Revolution
- Thread starter Avatar
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Imagine your surprise, it was directed to the ridiculous notion that the MEs borders could be reshaped in response to this wave of revolutions - Egypt had borders pretty much where they are now whilst the near entirety of Europe was still nomadic, it is of the most unified countries out there.
I think most of the other countries have been around long enough to have created a sense of national identity/pride too. But it's difficult to gauge unless you're from North Africa. I suspect for the most part it doesn't have the same ethnic divisions as say...Iraq.
No where in the Middle East proper does but that is because Iraq straddles different zones of ethnic groups. If borders were to ever change in the Middle East it would be to create less countries rather than more - there was an attempt to begin the creation of a pan-Arab state in the sixties which began with Egypt and Syria merging but it was unworkable so they split again.
In reality the only thing that could happen would be for closer unity in the Arab League to emerge, or more likely in North Africa and the Levant - the Gulf already has the Gulf Cooperation Council which is pretty open on cross-border trade and migration but it is a closed shop for the wealthy arab states living on oil and gas revenues as opposed to the Jordan and Egypt of this world.
How did you come to define, 'Americans refusing to confirm rumours that Gaddafi has been shot' as 'Gaddafi shot'?
Those are religious and (major)ethnic differences(Shia, Sunni, Kurd, Arabic speaking majority etc etc). North Africa is Berber for the most part(Arabised but still very much Berber) but that doesn't mean divisions can't or haven't be created. Just look at Eastern Europe...the Croats and Serbs both trace their ancestry back to the same tribe that migrated from across the Danube - the other Slavic tribes/nations have a common ancestor too. As I said, would be interesting to hear from a local.
Possibly, but not confirmed.
Very true, though such indicators are ususally evident.
That is amazing.
What's so great about these revolutions is that there don't appear to be any leaders... it's a raw organic movement. It's a beautiful thing.
Raoul does it feel more turbulent where you are right now 
?
?Raoul does it feel more turbulent where you are right now
The day of rage turned out to be bust once the Sadrists pulled out and Maliki warned that extremists might try to target demonstrators as a means to incite crowds as if it was the Government who were cracking down.
feck
Army just dispersed violently 2000 protesters in tahrir. Their excuse is the curfew and that 2000 do not represent the revolution
Honeymoon's over.. things may get complicated now
Army just dispersed violently 2000 protesters in tahrir. Their excuse is the curfew and that 2000 do not represent the revolution
Honeymoon's over.. things may get complicated now
I'm praying for you bro, InshAllah it'll all work out...
Disastrous turn of events. We hoped and dreamed that the army is with us for real, but seems they are not. i bet they want Ahmad Shafik the current PM to prove himself , run for presidency and get elected. He's from the army
They kinda have a point
no.. arrest them may be, but don't beat the hell out of them. And curfew has been in effect for a month now with many protesters still in the streets. Never once did this happen
Libya: 'Amazing' Hospitality Amid The Bloodshed
By Nick Ludlam, in Libya.
Driving along the main road through Al Bayda in eastern Libya, gunfire and the sight of rapidly reversing cars make us veer off the road for cover.
It turns out to be someone celebrating. The distinction is not always obvious and everyone here is on edge. But then 40 years of brutal oppression will do that.
Travelling through an unfamiliar country, entirely trusting in the goodness of strangers who speak an entirely alien language makes you analyse every gesture.Every incident, no matter how small becomes open to interpretation. The constant uncertainty of what to expect and how people will react is draining.
Hassen and Abdel Basset have spent days driving us from the border to their hometown. Only once we arrive do smiles and laughter start to replace their taciturn expressions. It can’t be easy having to humour suspicious, twitchy journalists in their charge. But it is difficult not to question the motives of people you are not paying and who are going through so much to help you. Particularly when they look like they have come straight from central casting.
But then I have never experienced Libyan hospitality before; it is amazing.
Our first meal puts any remaining doubts we might have had to rest. Enormous silver trays of rice with roast lamb, almonds and liver. Bowls of soup, pureed carrots, potato fritters and stuffed vine leaves. And it just keeps coming. The fruit, the sweet peppermint tea, cakes, biscuits and Turkish coffee. Friends and family are delighted to see you, all offering their homes to stay in. Their hospitality is overwhelming. Their bravery and desire for the events in Libya to be told to the outside world is humbling.
The extent of their honour and hospitality is perhaps best exemplified by their treatment of captured security forces. To convince them to lay down their arms the local ‘wise men’ promised them safety. They then moved them to people’s homes where they are being looked after and fed. The very soldiers that gunned down their neighbours are being protected from being lynched. When things stabilise they will be sent back to their home regions.
Everywhere we go we draw a crowd. It soon gets heated with people screaming then the guns start going off. There is a lot of anger at the West and its lack of intervention. But it is their desperation for their stories to be heard that is working them up not any resentment towards us.
I am repeatedly stunned by the Libyan peoples' ability to absorb what has happened and not want to exact revenge but instead create normality.
Each town has created temporary committees to organise their communities. Volunteers direct traffic and secure weapons caches. They also distribute food and fuel.
All the local committees in eastern Libya have come together over the last few days to discuss how they should approach their new found freedom. They heard from people who had lost their children to Gaddafi’s brutality. Their conclusion was a united Libya with freedom and democracy inscribed in a national constitution.
Fears of tribal conflict in a post-Gaddafi world may have been overstated.
Libya: 'Amazing' Hospitality Amid The Bloodshed | Libya | Gaddafi | Frontline Blog | Sky News Blogs
Among all the horror stories, it's good to read an account of what is going on inside Libya that isn't painted in doom and gloom.
Now that's interesting... Saudis planning protests on March 11
I hope those planning it are not in Saudi Arabia, and to take two weeks to plan such protests when the successful ones of late are those that have been relatively spontaneous not allowing the state to get its affairs in order is quite interesting.
Time to buy a horse.
I thought that was a bit crap. If anything, all of these are revolutions against 1st tier political realism - the placating of autocratic regimes for short term economic stability as opposed to the broader, long term interests of everyone, not just the wealthy.
..
Yes, but it was neoliberal geopolitical interests that had these dicators propped up and consolidated for decades. The struggle to remove them wasn't just a struggle against autocracy, but a struggle against the status quo - which had been IMF/WB neoliberalism that had crippled social services and have sent millions into poverty.
These people are in for a big surprise when they find out their new global friends are the same ones they had before offering the same support. You free your markets and let our companies in and for that we will offer you debt you will never repay.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I'm not sure I agree with that. It was the world of political realism, unilateral interventionism, power politics, and quid pro quo deals with autocratic dictators that led us to where we are in the middle east and elsewhere, none of which have anything to do with neoliberalism, in fact they're the polar opposite of it. "We will be your friend irrespective of how you treat your people, as long as you keep the oil flowing at a reasonable price and don't mess with Israel".
Forget the middle east for a second and go back to South American intervention in the 70s and 80s. All that interference there was to create neoliberal markets in untapped regions using the Monroe Doctrine as a guise to create large, short term corporate profits at the cost of destroying agriculture and increasing poverty. You can also use 'the war on drugs' excuse too if you so wish.
The middle east is essentially an expansion of the Monroe Doctrine beyond the Americas - but this time oil is the resource looking to be exploited by corporate powers, so the incentive is more specific this time. The Israeli concern only came about post-67 when the US realised they could have a reliable base in the middle east to pursue these agendas.
Are we now attempting to apply US policy towards the Middle East as a new version of the Monroe Doctrine ? If so, that seems to be clutching at straws a bit. Also, we're speaking about different Neoliberalisms, yours Economic, mine of International Politics.
I don't think anyone in recent decades has taken the genuineness of The Monroe Doctrine seriously anyway. As I said it was just an excuse along with 'the war on drugs' to pursue their foreign agendas in the Americas, just like how 'the war on terror' is another crafted excuse for similar agendas in the middle east, except in the middle east they've renamed it 'The Wolfowitz/Bush Doctrine'..not that it means anything.
And I don't think you can simply separate those two categories of neoliberalism; the latter is certainly driven by the former.
Except that the war on drugs was really just that. The use of a pejorative phrase to advertise US policy on attempting to eradicate drugs both domestically and in the source nations.
Like Terror, you can't just declare war on drugs and hoping you'd eradicate it. It's been shown you'd be better off funding rehabilitation and other social programs at tackling the epidemic within your own borders. Target 'supply & demand'.
But again this is where you and I disagree - I don't think the war on drugs was what it said it was on the tin, I think it was another guise.
Yes I agree with bit of what you said, however you're assuming that these policies had an ulterior hegemonic intent when they were simply misguided attempts at trying to fix complex problems.
Sky News reporting:
Libyan town of Al Zawiyah taken over by anti-Gadaffi protesters.
Police stations and government buildings on fire in Omani town of Sohar after police clashed with protesters. One person killed in Oman in clashes between security forces.
Libyan town of Al Zawiyah taken over by anti-Gadaffi protesters.
Police stations and government buildings on fire in Omani town of Sohar after police clashed with protesters. One person killed in Oman in clashes between security forces.
Someone with a decent grasp of this, or who has followed the story closer than I have....would it be fair to say, the Good Colonel now controls less than 40% of his country(albeit a very important 40%)