No, I didn't know that. I was mostly referring to an incident when the constable hadn't actually asked. I expect I'd pile in if requested.
American Cops Doing What They Do Best
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No, I didn't know that. I was mostly referring to an incident when the constable hadn't actually asked. I expect I'd pile in if requested.
Skizzo
Full Member
No one gives a feck about the police. What they do is taken for granted by vast numbers of the general public.
Tell me about it. Although to be fair, having worked with a few of the older officers when I first started, some of them definitely came off as rather power hungry. Not to go in to details, but there were plenty of occasions where I thought my training officer was being a little "heavy handed" with a situation. Not necessarily hands on...but the manner in which he spoke to people. He called it being authoritative, but to me it came off as being a dick. I've always been of the mindset that you speak to the public in a professional, but respectful tone, and they'll return the favour. If they are gonna be assholes, then you can flip the switch.
Cops getting shot on the job isn't really a surprise. Dirty cops murdering people for no good reason is a massive surprise and huge news when it happens.
I'm sure that nobody posting in this thread is glad that it happens.
I didn't say it would be a surprise. I knew it was part of the risk when I started, and so does every other officer (regardless of the dangers compared to logging). I've said before that there are cops who overstep their position and should certainly at the very least be removed from the position, if not have charges filed. I've never stuck up for an officer who clearly went beyond what he should have done. Look at the thread on Michael Brown...everyone in there jumping straight to the point of "fecking cops killing an unarmed teenager just because he's black" and then the whole "hands up, dont shoot" bullshit. Look what happened there. I'm all for things being covered in detail, and I'm all for having a body camera. I know what I'm doing, but I also know that if something happens and I had an altercation with a minority, the first reaction would be "racist cop at it again" which isn't the case.
My point was, that with all the negativity surrounding every minority killed by a police officer that has been mentioned on here, there isn't any (or very few) who make a comment in regards to good officers being gunned down (by anyone, minority or not). They deserve more of a mention than some who have been mentioned almost as martyr's.
I'm sure someone will call me biased, and perhaps so...although I'd like to think I've always made a fairly objective contribution to the discussions.
Sky1981
Fending off the urge
Tell me about it. Although to be fair, having worked with a few of the older officers when I first started, some of them definitely came off as rather power hungry. Not to go in to details, but there were plenty of occasions where I thought my training officer was being a little "heavy handed" with a situation. Not necessarily hands on...but the manner in which he spoke to people. He called it being authoritative, but to me it came off as being a dick. I've always been of the mindset that you speak to the public in a professional, but respectful tone, and they'll return the favour. If they are gonna be assholes, then you can flip the switch.
I didn't say it would be a surprise. I knew it was part of the risk when I started, and so does every other officer (regardless of the dangers compared to logging). I've said before that there are cops who overstep their position and should certainly at the very least be removed from the position, if not have charges filed. I've never stuck up for an officer who clearly went beyond what he should have done. Look at the thread on Michael Brown...everyone in there jumping straight to the point of "fecking cops killing an unarmed teenager just because he's black" and then the whole "hands up, dont shoot" bullshit. Look what happened there. I'm all for things being covered in detail, and I'm all for having a body camera. I know what I'm doing, but I also know that if something happens and I had an altercation with a minority, the first reaction would be "racist cop at it again" which isn't the case.
My point was, that with all the negativity surrounding every minority killed by a police officer that has been mentioned on here, there isn't any (or very few) who make a comment in regards to good officers being gunned down (by anyone, minority or not). They deserve more of a mention than some who have been mentioned almost as martyr's.
I'm sure someone will call me biased, and perhaps so...although I'd like to think I've always made a fairly objective contribution to the discussions.
A bit OOT, but how does being filed against really work? As a commoners I have a view that filing a complaint against minor infractment by a police as a waste of time, as nothing good will come out of it. Do we really stand a chance at a proper review? Or would everything be chucked under the bin? I understand that police have a taxing job, and there are times that they need to go beyond the law to get things done. Although I do not condone this to be done on a totally innocent civilians, but I assume there are things that the cop turns a blind eye upon?
Another question if I may, how does the force opinion on recent issue? Do they blame the cops? or do they think otherwise? There are a growing number of minorities in the force I pressume? There's a number of blacks, hispanics, asians etc in the force, how do they perceive this, do they think it's a racist act? Would appreciate an insider view of the situation. Thanks
Most of us from western nations outside of the US just don't accept the shooting of suspects for relatively minor crimes as an acceptable day-to-day method of enforcing the law. It doesn't matter if the cop feared for their life, the gun culture in the US has just gone too far out of whack and the public here are too easily accepting of cops acting as judge, jury and executioner when the justification test is met.
Your job would be so much easier if we had sane gun control.
Your job would be so much easier if we had sane gun control.
Skizzo
Full Member
A bit OOT, but how does being filed against really work? As a commoners I have a view that filing a complaint against minor infractment by a police as a waste of time, as nothing good will come out of it. Do we really stand a chance at a proper review? Or would everything be chucked under the bin? I understand that police have a taxing job, and there are times that they need to go beyond the law to get things done. Although I do not condone this to be done on a totally innocent civilians, but I assume there are things that the cop turns a blind eye upon?
Another question if I may, how does the force opinion on recent issue? Do they blame the cops? or do they think otherwise? There are a growing number of minorities in the force I pressume? There's a number of blacks, hispanics, asians etc in the force, how do they perceive this, do they think it's a racist act? Would appreciate an insider view of the situation. Thanks
I meant more along the lines of criminal charges being filed, rather than a complaint. Some of the recent incidents absolutely deserve more than a complaint, and I wouldn't thank those officers for casting that shadow over the rest of us.
I agree that sometimes circumstances may require going beyond the law, but there's a limit to which that can be accepted. Obviously case law can dictate exceptions and changes to rules/laws/policies pertaining to officers in situations...but I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I would have to rely on people picking apart every single action of an incident to see if I am about to be prosecuted, or civilly sued for millions. The departments won't back an officer in a civil case if he is outside policy.
The last case I really remember discussing in detail with other officers was the incident where the CHP (my dept.) officer was dealing with the pedestrian on the freeway. In the end, a lot of officers were really pissed off with the Commissioner for how it was handled. They felt he should have stood up for the officer, rather than issuing a statement so quickly and handling it. That's an example where opinion will divide quickly among officers and the public, based entirely on experiences with dealing with people in those incidents. I'll keep my own opinion to myself unless asked, because I don't want to derail this particular discussion with it. The officer I work in had plenty of hispanics, a few asians, but no black officers. When the cases were discussed, race was never mentioned...the only common theme that came up was that all of them had run ins with the law prior, regardless of race. Not to say that it justifies the actions or end result by any means, but that was what was focused on. Not black or white.
Skizzo
Full Member
Most of us from western nations outside of the US just don't accept the shooting of suspects for relatively minor crimes as an acceptable day-to-day method of enforcing the law. It doesn't matter if the cop feared for their life, the gun culture in the US has just gone too far out of whack and the public here are too easily accepting of cops acting as judge, jury and executioner when the justification test is met.
Your job would be so much easier if we had sane gun control.
I agree. I was born and raised in England, moved to the US in 1999. There's a slippery slope, that's only going to get worse with events coming to light or being focused on. People are now more likely to carry a weapon and confront officers, which will be in the back of officers minds when dealing with people who may not necessarily be cooperating. I've never had an incident with someone where I felt my life was in danger, however, there's always that thought at the back of your mind when approaching some vehicles where you really don't know what to expect. I've always found that dealing with people with respect, whether an old lady or someone in a gang, was the best approach. They've always appreciated that, and returned that attitude back. It's the incidents that escalate before an interaction that have the highest chance of suddenly turning deadly.
Sky1981
Fending off the urge
I meant more along the lines of criminal charges being filed, rather than a complaint. Some of the recent incidents absolutely deserve more than a complaint, and I wouldn't thank those officers for casting that shadow over the rest of us.
I agree that sometimes circumstances may require going beyond the law, but there's a limit to which that can be accepted. Obviously case law can dictate exceptions and changes to rules/laws/policies pertaining to officers in situations...but I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I would have to rely on people picking apart every single action of an incident to see if I am about to be prosecuted, or civilly sued for millions. The departments won't back an officer in a civil case if he is outside policy.
The last case I really remember discussing in detail with other officers was the incident where the CHP (my dept.) officer was dealing with the pedestrian on the freeway. In the end, a lot of officers were really pissed off with the Commissioner for how it was handled. They felt he should have stood up for the officer, rather than issuing a statement so quickly and handling it. That's an example where opinion will divide quickly among officers and the public, based entirely on experiences with dealing with people in those incidents. I'll keep my own opinion to myself unless asked, because I don't want to derail this particular discussion with it. The officer I work in had plenty of hispanics, a few asians, but no black officers. When the cases were discussed, race was never mentioned...the only common theme that came up was that all of them had run ins with the law prior, regardless of race. Not to say that it justifies the actions or end result by any means, but that was what was focused on. Not black or white.
Thank you, that's very insightful
Nobby style
Full Member
Incredible how much tax payers are forced to pay for police abuse. Anyone know how much police abuse has costed British tax payers?
https://www.rutherford.org/publicat...ture_the_bill_of_rights_doesnt_amount_to_much
In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much
By John W. Whitehead
May 05, 2015
Police officers are more likely to be struck by lightning than be held financially accountable for their actions.—Law professor Joanna C. Schwartz (paraphrased)
“In a democratic society,” observed Oakland police chief Sean Whent, “people have a say in how they are policed.”
Unfortunately, if you can be kicked, punched, tasered, shot, intimidated, harassed, stripped, searched, brutalized, terrorized, wrongfully arrested, and even killed by a police officer, and that officer is never held accountable for violating your rights and his oath of office to serve and protect, never forced to make amends, never told that what he did was wrong, and never made to change his modus operandi, then you don’t live in a constitutional republic.
You live in a police state.
It doesn’t even matter that “crime is at historic lows and most cities are safer than they have been in generations, for residents and officers alike,” as the New York Times reports.
What matters is whether you’re going to make it through a police confrontation alive and with your health and freedoms intact. For a growing number of Americans, those confrontations do not end well.
As David O. Brown, the Dallas chief of police, noted: “Sometimes it seems like our young officers want to get into an athletic event with people they want to arrest. They have a ‘don’t retreat’ mentality. They feel like they’re warriors and they can’t back down when someone is running from them, no matter how minor the underlying crime is.”
Making matters worse, in the cop culture that is America today, the Bill of Rights doesn’t amount to much. Unless, that is, it’s the Law Enforcement Officers’ Bill of Rights (LEOBoR), which protects police officers from being subjected to the kinds of debilitating indignities heaped upon the average citizen.
. . . Once in a while, the system appears to work on the side of justice, and police officers engaged in wrongdoing are actually charged for abusing their authority and using excessive force against American citizens.
Yet even in these instances, it’s still the American taxpayer who foots the bill.
For example, Baltimore taxpayers have paid roughly $5.7 million since 2011 over lawsuits stemming from police abuses, with an additional $5.8 million going towards legal fees. If the six Baltimore police officers charged with the death of Freddie Gray are convicted, you can rest assured it will be the Baltimore taxpayers who feel the pinch.
New York taxpayers have shelled out almost $1,130 per year per police officer (there are 34,500 officers in the NYPD) to address charges of misconduct. That translates to $38 million every year just to clean up after these so-called public servants.
Over a 10-year-period, Oakland, Calif., taxpayers were made to cough up more than $57 million (curiously enough, the same amount as the city’s deficit back in 2011) in order to settle accounts with alleged victims of police abuse.
Chicago taxpayers were asked to pay out nearly $33 million on one day alone to victims of police misconduct, with one person slated to receive $22.5 million, potentially the largest single amount settled on any one victim. The City has paid more than half a billion dollars to victims over the course of a decade. The Chicago City Council actually had to borrow $100 million just to pay off lawsuits arising over police misconduct in 2013. The city’s payout for 2014 was estimated to be in the same ballpark, especially with cases pending such as the one involving the man who was reportedly sodomized by a police officer’s gun in order to force him to “cooperate.”
Over 78% of the funds paid out by Denver taxpayers over the course of a decade arose as a result of alleged abuse or excessive use of force by the Denver police and sheriff departments. Meanwhile, taxpayers in Ferguson, Missouri, are being asked to pay $40 million in compensation—more than the city’s entire budget—for police officers treating them “‘as if they were war combatants,’ using tactics like beating, rubber bullets, pepper spray, and stun grenades, while the plaintiffs were peacefully protesting, sitting in a McDonalds, and in one case walking down the street to visit relatives . . . "
https://www.rutherford.org/publicat...ture_the_bill_of_rights_doesnt_amount_to_much
In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much
By John W. Whitehead
May 05, 2015
Police officers are more likely to be struck by lightning than be held financially accountable for their actions.—Law professor Joanna C. Schwartz (paraphrased)
“In a democratic society,” observed Oakland police chief Sean Whent, “people have a say in how they are policed.”
Unfortunately, if you can be kicked, punched, tasered, shot, intimidated, harassed, stripped, searched, brutalized, terrorized, wrongfully arrested, and even killed by a police officer, and that officer is never held accountable for violating your rights and his oath of office to serve and protect, never forced to make amends, never told that what he did was wrong, and never made to change his modus operandi, then you don’t live in a constitutional republic.
You live in a police state.
It doesn’t even matter that “crime is at historic lows and most cities are safer than they have been in generations, for residents and officers alike,” as the New York Times reports.
What matters is whether you’re going to make it through a police confrontation alive and with your health and freedoms intact. For a growing number of Americans, those confrontations do not end well.
As David O. Brown, the Dallas chief of police, noted: “Sometimes it seems like our young officers want to get into an athletic event with people they want to arrest. They have a ‘don’t retreat’ mentality. They feel like they’re warriors and they can’t back down when someone is running from them, no matter how minor the underlying crime is.”
Making matters worse, in the cop culture that is America today, the Bill of Rights doesn’t amount to much. Unless, that is, it’s the Law Enforcement Officers’ Bill of Rights (LEOBoR), which protects police officers from being subjected to the kinds of debilitating indignities heaped upon the average citizen.
. . . Once in a while, the system appears to work on the side of justice, and police officers engaged in wrongdoing are actually charged for abusing their authority and using excessive force against American citizens.
Yet even in these instances, it’s still the American taxpayer who foots the bill.
For example, Baltimore taxpayers have paid roughly $5.7 million since 2011 over lawsuits stemming from police abuses, with an additional $5.8 million going towards legal fees. If the six Baltimore police officers charged with the death of Freddie Gray are convicted, you can rest assured it will be the Baltimore taxpayers who feel the pinch.
New York taxpayers have shelled out almost $1,130 per year per police officer (there are 34,500 officers in the NYPD) to address charges of misconduct. That translates to $38 million every year just to clean up after these so-called public servants.
Over a 10-year-period, Oakland, Calif., taxpayers were made to cough up more than $57 million (curiously enough, the same amount as the city’s deficit back in 2011) in order to settle accounts with alleged victims of police abuse.
Chicago taxpayers were asked to pay out nearly $33 million on one day alone to victims of police misconduct, with one person slated to receive $22.5 million, potentially the largest single amount settled on any one victim. The City has paid more than half a billion dollars to victims over the course of a decade. The Chicago City Council actually had to borrow $100 million just to pay off lawsuits arising over police misconduct in 2013. The city’s payout for 2014 was estimated to be in the same ballpark, especially with cases pending such as the one involving the man who was reportedly sodomized by a police officer’s gun in order to force him to “cooperate.”
Over 78% of the funds paid out by Denver taxpayers over the course of a decade arose as a result of alleged abuse or excessive use of force by the Denver police and sheriff departments. Meanwhile, taxpayers in Ferguson, Missouri, are being asked to pay $40 million in compensation—more than the city’s entire budget—for police officers treating them “‘as if they were war combatants,’ using tactics like beating, rubber bullets, pepper spray, and stun grenades, while the plaintiffs were peacefully protesting, sitting in a McDonalds, and in one case walking down the street to visit relatives . . . "
shabz
Full Member
Autistic man killed in custody.
It's crazy how poorly trained a lot of police officers are around the world. This case is no different in demonstrating the lack of calmness many police officers don't have. The man David Dehmann was well known to the local police department and they knew of his special needs.
Around the 4.30 minute mark in this video is when the incident starts to occur.
Around the 2 minute mark in this video.
Working with many autistic people in my job, they often find it hard to gauge a line between playfulness and seriousness but in no way was this police officer ever in any danger. It is just ridiculous.
It's crazy how poorly trained a lot of police officers are around the world. This case is no different in demonstrating the lack of calmness many police officers don't have. The man David Dehmann was well known to the local police department and they knew of his special needs.
Around the 4.30 minute mark in this video is when the incident starts to occur.
Around the 2 minute mark in this video.
Working with many autistic people in my job, they often find it hard to gauge a line between playfulness and seriousness but in no way was this police officer ever in any danger. It is just ridiculous.
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Pogue Mahone
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Inexcusable thuggery. Looks as though the autistic guy was a bit drunk and bolshy but my god, what is it with the American po po and the amount of bullies they recruit?
MDFC Manager
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I stopped being surprised many incidents ago. Now I'm increasingly stepping into the 'apathy zone' with regards to American cop routines...
Sky1981
Fending off the urge
What the feck is wrong with them, so many cases in last few months, are they trying to outdo each other? Shouldn't they at least have some advice to behave with all the high profile cases lately?
Randall Flagg
Worst of the best
At least he was white I suppose
TheReligion
Abusive
How did he die?
The guy looks to try and hit the cop which he ducks under and slams him to the floor.
The guy looks to try and hit the cop which he ducks under and slams him to the floor.
Pogue Mahone
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How did he die?
The guy looks to try and hit the cop which he ducks under and slams him to the floor.
Presumably head and neck trauma related to the bit in bold. Slamming someone head first onto a hard, tiled floor was never going to end well and was completely unnecessary.
TheReligion
Abusive
Presumably head and neck trauma related to the bit in bold. Slamming someone head first onto a hard, tiled floor was never going to end well and was completely unnecessary.
The post is a bit vague so wasn't sure.
It's all about reasonable force in UK law. It will be up to him to prove the force used was reasonable.
Pogue Mahone
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The post is a bit vague so wasn't sure.
It's all about reasonable force in UK law. It will be up to him to prove the force used was reasonable.
More info here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...deputy-body-slammed-drunk-man-before-he-died/
TheReligion
Abusive
Alot more to it then than first thought. Cause of death still unknown with the male having fallen and banged his head before police arrive following him having drank a bottle of vodka and then mouthwash.
Pogue Mahone
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Alot more to it then than first thought. Cause of death still unknown with the male having fallen and banged his head before police arrive following him having drank a bottle of vodka and then mouthwash.
Well he's slammed headfirst onto a tiled concrete door, then lies motionless for almost 15 minutes until he's taken out on a stretcher and dies shortly afterwards. It's reasonable to assume that having his head bounced off the floor had an important role to play in his demise.
Eboue
nasty little twerp with crazy bitter-man opinions
Tile is well known to be more damaging than plain concrete.
JUPITER
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Disgusting.
But good that more and more people are becoming increasingly aware of these incidents - just think how long these kind of incidents and attitudes have been swept into dark corners...
But good that more and more people are becoming increasingly aware of these incidents - just think how long these kind of incidents and attitudes have been swept into dark corners...
mu4c_20le
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I only see one aggressive felon in the video and he is in uniform.
Rado_N
Yaaas Broncos!
Hard to be sure from the videos (half out of frame in the first and crap quality/distance in the second) but it looks like the guy us kinda playing around as he's walking past, pointing at the woman (I think?) first and then the cop, who rather than let it go decided to aggressively shove him away which provoked a response and body slam.
Pogue Mahone
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Tile is well known to be more damaging than plain concrete.
Takes the sting out alright.
Skizzo
Full Member
I only see one aggressive felon in the video and he is in uniform.
Not the guy who took a fighting stance and had a history of domestic violence? Interesting.
Maxii
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The aggressiveness of him swiping his hand away is scary. Just itching to use "reasonable force" to slam the guy on the ground. It would have been bad enough on a perfectly healthy man, but a drunk man who can barely stand and has a mental illness is disgusting. More cops like this getting prosecuted is the only way things will change.
TheReligion
Abusive
Not the guy who took a fighting stance and had a history of domestic violence? Interesting.
Interesting.
Just because the guy was autistic doesn't mean he was a saint. It's amazing how partisan journalism can really grip public opinion without people caring to peel the skin of the onion that bit more.
Pogue Mahone
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Interesting.
Just because the guy was autistic doesn't mean he was a saint. It's amazing how partisan journalism can really grip public opinion without people caring to peel the skin of the onion that bit more.
He sounds like a bit of a loose cannon, although that may be partly due to his disability.
Obviously doesn't justify the excessive use of force in that video, mind you.
Skizzo
Full Member
Interesting.
Just because the guy was autistic doesn't mean he was a saint. It's amazing how partisan journalism can really grip public opinion without people caring to peel the skin of the onion that bit more.
Why would people feel the need to research anything more when the news stories can just put the most sensationalistic headlines and stories together to speak to people's hot buttons.
Hectic
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Why would people feel the need to research anything more when the news stories can just put the most sensationalistic headlines and stories together to speak to people's hot buttons.
Because those details aren't relevant to his death? So what if he has a history of domestic violence, what does that have to do with him dying in police custody and how his death could have been completely avoided?
Rado_N
Yaaas Broncos!
I'm sure when that cop aggressively shoved him away he did so because he'd just finished a detailed review of his case file and was concerned about a possible domestic violence situation breaking out.
TheReligion
Abusive
I think he's making a point about the reporting of the whole thing. Rather that it being a poor defenseless disabled man who was deliberately slaughter by a ruthless police officer it's a drunk autistic male with a history of violence that threw a punch at a cop and was taken down to the floor sadly dying later by unknown means.
Obviously I exaggerated both ways but one makes headlines the other doesn't.
Obviously I exaggerated both ways but one makes headlines the other doesn't.
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Inexcusable thuggery. Looks as though the autistic guy was a bit drunk and bolshy but my god, what is it with the American po po and the amount of bullies they recruit?
I don't want to criticise Americans, because all countries have their share of thugs, but I think the power aspect of being a police officer leads to some mentally unstable people joining up. One of the reasons why the police (and politicians) should be respected, but the public should always remember that they are our servants, not the other way round. Applies a lot to politicians who constantly talk about "getting into POWER".
Anyway, disgusting crime.
Nucks
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I'm not sure why you're referencing me with this?
Not sure. Maybe I hit quote on the wrong post, or maybe I was just backing up your point with my own first personal account? Honestly not sure ;p
Brwned
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Interesting.
Just because the guy was autistic doesn't mean he was a saint. It's amazing how partisan journalism can really grip public opinion without people caring to peel the skin of the onion that bit more.
You don't need to read up on it to see that the policeman used excessive force and caused the death of this man. The video does it for you. It seems like no matter what the story, you'll always defend the policeman first...
itso 7
New Member
Still doesn't give the cop authority to be judge and executioner, does it though? This is a trained officer and he can not handle a drunk, ill man in custody! No wonder the streets are now a death trap for people of the wrong colour.Not the guy who took a fighting stance and had a history of domestic violence? Interesting.
TheReligion
Abusive
You don't need to read up on it to see that the policeman used excessive force and caused the death of this man. The video does it for you. It seems like no matter what the story, you'll always defend the policeman first...
Not really. I just have a dislike for bandwagon jumping in whatever form.
Two sides to every story.
TheReligion
Abusive
Still doesn't give the cop authority to be judge and executioner, does it though? This is a trained officer and he can not handle a drunk, ill man in custody! No wonder the streets are now a death trap for people of the wrong colour.
Have you every been in a fight with a drunk or mentally unstable person?
itso 7
New Member
Why would that be relevant? I take it you have and have those, in your case, always ended dead on the floor? This man shouldn't be dead and that is all that matters atm.Have you every been in a fight with a drunk or mentally unstable person?
MrMarcello
In a well-ordered universe...
So, he has a history of domestic violence, is drunk, is vocal, is autistic and whatnot, and the cops take the cuffs off.
Makes sense.
Makes sense.
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