Smores
Full Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2011
- Messages
- 25,804

It's not about people, it's about goods and it's not about hard borders but controlled borders.
You don't know what you're talking about. Take it from someone who lives in Ireland.They can't though. It doesn't matter if I'm flying from Dublin to Paris or London to Paris, I'd still have to jump through the exact same hoops!
Okay thanks, that makes a bit more sense, assuming there is going to be tariffs that is, otherwise it doesn't make a difference.
It's not just about tariffs, it's about standards and regulations on top of tariffs and possible VAT issues.
There's actually already VAT issues, and fuel duty issues.
Absolute twaddle you have had the ability to control your immigration fully. You know immigration is used as a prod to stir up the pleb population anytime an election or referendum needs to be won. Stop trying to gloss over that
You don't know what you're talking about. Take it from someone who lives in Ireland.
So what is that thing I have always needed if I (a British citizen) was flying from Dublin to Paris? Oh, yes a passport!
And what's that thing that I am still going to need when flying from Dublin to Paris? Yep, a passport.
And what's that thing I'll need if I'm flying from London to Paris? Still a passport, bet you're catching on here!
So my freedom of movement won't be effected one bit by the fact I've managed to make it to Dublin with no checks.
Right but.. you don't need a passport to travel between Ireland and the UK because of the CTA.So what is that thing I have always needed if I (a British citizen) was flying from Dublin to Paris? Oh, yes a passport!
And what's that thing that I am still going to need when flying from Dublin to Paris? Yep, a passport.
And what's that thing I'll need if I'm flying from London to Paris? Still a passport, bet you're catching on here!
So my freedom of movement won't be effected one bit by the fact I've managed to make it to Dublin with no checks.
Actually, you won't have the right to work or loan anything in Paris, without a visa.
Maybe, maybe not, but whatever happens, the same is going to be true whether there is an open border with NI or not, which is what my charming Irish friend doesn't seem to understand.
Right but.. you don't need a passport to travel between Ireland and the UK because of the CTA.
If the UK crashes out of the EU then there's no more CTA, Ireland will likely join Schengen instead.
Plus there's the fact that there are different queues and rules at every EU airport for non EU citizens, so the UK will instead have to adhere to those from now on.
UK citizens will be subject to security and visa checks any time they travel to an EU country, Ireland included.
Open border and freedom of movement are two different things. Your previous post talked about freedom of movement.
Between NI and ROI I don't need a passport to be precise. Between England and NI or ROI I've always needed a passport as long as I can remember. (Maybe in the olden days you only needed a driving license but I think that is long gone). But it's irrelevant anyway, because I'd still need a passport between Dublin and the rest of the EU.
And whatever queue I have to get in to get to other EU countries in the future, will be the same queue whether there is a hard border between NI & ROI or not.
So it makes no difference!
My freedom of movement to other EU countries makes not a jot of difference whether there is a hard border between NI & ROI or not. I'm still either going to need a visa (or maybe not need a visa) but the hard border between NI & ROI won't be the determining factor in that.
Nonsense, don't be obtuse.
The cases you describe hardly affect the volumes of migration we're talking about. The UK has a net migration of 300k people a year. The number of cases that fall into the "public safety" (mostly suspected terrorists, ex-convicts and the like) that you're talking about are maybe a handful of people per year.
You can call it "very limited control" if you will, but that's not what we mean by being in control. I'd suspect you knew that before I guess.
If you're Northern Irish, you are (I believe) entitled to Irish citizenship, while also being British, and can move between NI and ROI freely. A hard Brexit would complicate that because you'd then have British citizens who're supposed to be entitled to move freely from a non-EU nation to an EU one even though we'd no longer be involved with FOM.
I don't see why that complicates things. I am actually half Irish myself, so I can apply for an Irish passport. Which will give me dual citizenship I guess. So I'd still be an EU citizen. Where is the complication?
No between Ireland and the UK you don't need a passport if you're a UK/IE citizen, actually. Any established proof of ID is fine.Between NI and ROI I don't need a passport to be precise. Between England and NI or ROI I've always needed a passport as long as I can remember. (Maybe in the olden days you only needed a driving license but I think that is long gone). But it's irrelevant anyway, because I'd still need a passport between Dublin and the rest of the EU.
And whatever queue I have to get in to get to other EU countries in the future, will be the same queue whether there is a hard border between NI & ROI or not.
So it makes no difference!
Right but.. you don't need a passport to travel between Ireland and the UK because of the CTA.
If the UK crashes out of the EU then there's no more CTA, Ireland will likely join Schengen instead.
Plus there's the fact that there are different queues and rules at every EU airport for non EU citizens, so the UK will instead have to adhere to those from now on.
UK citizens will be subject to security and visa checks any time they travel to an EU country, Ireland included.
Between the EU and the UK/Ireland no passport is necessary! You can cross with any EU Id card! It's just us Brits don't have themNo between Ireland and the UK you don't need a passport if you're a UK/IE citizen, actually. Any established proof of ID is fine.
if you think having to go through the generally far slower, higher security, non-EU line and obtain a Visa any time you visit a country a half hour flight away is "irrelevant" then good for you, I doubt many others will feel the same.
Yeah no shit. And then Ireland and the UK joined the EU at the same time and it continues to exist.None of that is true.
CTA existed before the EU.
There's none there. The difference is that I believe all NI citizens have dual citizenship, which essentially means you have an entire portion of the UK expecting to be able to move freely between NI and ROI as they have done before, with open borders etc.
No that's incorrect, you either need the EU passport card or a passport.Between the EU and the UK/Ireland no passport is necessary! You can cross with any EU Id card! It's just us Brits don't have them
No, we can genuinely stop anyone and everyone at our border if we wanted to. We don't because of the cost involved, the organisation involved ...
Explain to me how you think we'll change once we're out of the EU please.
There is nothing between IE and NI. You can drive past the border and then only thing you'll notice is a different metric system on road signs.Are there any passport/ID checks between NI and Ireland? Because if there are none than @Boogie Man 's suggestion isn't feasible.
Exactly. If a caf cannot pay a decent salary it should not be open. But nevertheless, i do not believe there aren't any adequate burger flippers on the dole and i do not believe people should be paid 2.90 per hour to pick fruit, wherever they are from. We've created slave economies, if that's what everybody wants then fine. Just dint ever moan about your static salaries.Because it is untrue.
We don't have zero unemployment here in Australia at 5.6% just as there is 4.1% unemployment in the UK plus the 5-10% hidden unemployment due to government regulations designed to drive people of unemployment payments to make the figures look better.
In both countries there are jobs that locals often won't touch either due to the pay, the conditions or the location. Either you raise the minimum wage considerably or you get people from other countries in to do these jobs.
No between Ireland and the UK you don't need a passport if you're a UK/IE citizen, actually. Any established proof of ID is fine.
if you think having to go through the generally far slower, higher security, non-EU line and obtain a Visa any time you visit a country a half hour flight away is "irrelevant" then good for you, I doubt many others will feel the same.
I am German and am planning a trip to the UK. As it is not a member of the Schengen area, can I enter the UK with my German identity card or must I present my passport?No that's incorrect, you either need the EU passport card or a passport.
Thought you meant Ireland > EU - which needs passport or our EU card.I am German and am planning a trip to the UK. As it is not a member of the Schengen area, can I enter the UK with my German identity card or must I present my passport?
As an EU country, on presentation of your official German identity card. You do not need to present your passport.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-citizen/faq/index_en.htm
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-citizen/index_en.htm
You are wrong
Obviously that's mainly to do with trade and customs checks and tariffs on trade as opposed to movement of people between NI and IE.But my original argument, is why would the EU care if there isn't a hard border between NI & ROI? I'm still gonna have to get in the slow lane on a flight from Dublin no matter what (if I only have a British passport), whether there is a hard border or not up near Donegal (or wherever)
I am German and am planning a trip to the UK. As it is not a member of the Schengen area, can I enter the UK with my German identity card or must I present my passport?
As an EU country, on presentation of your official German identity card. You do not need to present your passport.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-citizen/faq/index_en.htm
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-citizen/index_en.htm
You are wrong
Obviously that's mainly to do with trade and customs checks and tariffs on trade as opposed to movement of people between NI and IE.
But at the same time a non EU member being able to enter an EU country without any validation checks is illegal by EU law, unless they abide by EU laws like Norway (and even then I think some posters said there are checks between them & Sweden?
My take on it is that you're spouting absolute nonsense.My take is it is just the EU being awkward. It makes no difference to any other EU countries what the UK and ROI agree upon on that little bit of border.
It's a shame, that Ireland fought long and hard for their freedom from Britain, only to give up that freedom to the EU who are now dictating what Ireland can and can't do on their own borders!
Obviously that's mainly to do with trade and customs checks and tariffs on trade as opposed to movement of people between NI and IE.
But at the same time a non EU member being able to enter an EU country without any validation checks is illegal by EU law, unless they abide by EU laws like Norway (and even then I think some posters said there are checks between them & Sweden?
My take on it is that you're spouting absolute nonsense.
Ibelieve mk.2 right here.
Aaaaaaand you're going on ignore. Pooft!It would be like the equivalent of me caring whether there was a hard border between northern Cyprus and southern Cyprus. It makes no difference to me, or anyone else!
Yes that's all true. Likewise UK citizens currently have far more rights in Ireland than other EU nationals and vice-versa. I think the likely outcome is that even on a hard-brexit the UK and Ireland will find a way to keep those benefits between our citizens and allow us to live within each other's countries without restrictions, but obviously we would have to move through a border to do so, sadly.Freedom of movement is in fact free movement of labour, it's not about the physical movement of persons through borders, the Schengen agreement is about the physical right to move and the extension of member states citizens's rights to all EU citizens. Technically in Ireland and UK, I could be thrown out of the country if I don't have a job, it's different to France-Spain where I can be in Spain without a job as long as I don't require any benefits.