I actually felt Shaw showed some real promise in some of the games before he got injured, especially going forward. I think the potential is clearly there but he seems insecure playing in the 5-3-2 as most of our other players are as well.
How good is our squad, really?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
We have clear weaknesses and we all know what they are. As a result LVG, post the Leicester capitulation, has adopted a formation that makes us harder to beat but has players playing out of position and sacrificing their natural game. We will only get the best out of what we have when players are playing to their strengths and in their proper positions. Until then we'll be getting this drab fare served up.
Remember this is a complete rebuild after some pretty poor purchases towards the end from SAF and then the Moyes debacle. Despite this we are in a CL place as we speak and 1 or 2 puchases in the right area away from having a team that will most definitely challenge. Those who think we are no better off than last year should note we have beaten Arsenal, Liverpool, drawn with Chelsea and gone down fighting 1-0 to City with ten men.
In summary we are on the cusp of being seriously good. This place being on permanent meltdown doesn't help to be objective about where we are in reality.
Remember this is a complete rebuild after some pretty poor purchases towards the end from SAF and then the Moyes debacle. Despite this we are in a CL place as we speak and 1 or 2 puchases in the right area away from having a team that will most definitely challenge. Those who think we are no better off than last year should note we have beaten Arsenal, Liverpool, drawn with Chelsea and gone down fighting 1-0 to City with ten men.
In summary we are on the cusp of being seriously good. This place being on permanent meltdown doesn't help to be objective about where we are in reality.
On paper our team should be one of the best around. Our GK, Midfield and Attack is as good as anyone's - there are still some question marks over the defence, but our defensive record is actually not that bad.
In attack we have RVP, Falcao, Rooney and Wilson
In midfield we have Carrick, Blind, Herrera, ADM, Fellaini and Mata
In defence we have Rafael, Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Evans and Shaw
(I have obviously not included EVERY player above)
So basically, I think the squad is good enough (or should be) to do a lot better than we are doing, and it is why it is so much more painful to watch when we are playing pathetic, tumescent, languid football - because we have the capability of playing so much better. This is different to before where there were questions about the squad quality, so *some* performance issues could be excused.
With the squad listed above, LVG should be able to get a team playing some good football and challenging for the league. Again, on paper I would actually rate out squad as being second only to Chelsea's. The issue is that so many of our so-called world class players simply dont perform to the same level as their counterparts for other teams. Using @Pogue Mahone 's example in the OP, Cazorla had an absolute stormer against City last night. City themselves have Silva who has torn teams to shreds on many occasions, and Chelsea have Hazard capable of similar.
We have Mata and Di Maria, both of whom should be performing at a similar level to those I just listed, but quite simply, dont.
In attack we have RVP, Falcao, Rooney and Wilson
In midfield we have Carrick, Blind, Herrera, ADM, Fellaini and Mata
In defence we have Rafael, Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Evans and Shaw
(I have obviously not included EVERY player above)
So basically, I think the squad is good enough (or should be) to do a lot better than we are doing, and it is why it is so much more painful to watch when we are playing pathetic, tumescent, languid football - because we have the capability of playing so much better. This is different to before where there were questions about the squad quality, so *some* performance issues could be excused.
With the squad listed above, LVG should be able to get a team playing some good football and challenging for the league. Again, on paper I would actually rate out squad as being second only to Chelsea's. The issue is that so many of our so-called world class players simply dont perform to the same level as their counterparts for other teams. Using @Pogue Mahone 's example in the OP, Cazorla had an absolute stormer against City last night. City themselves have Silva who has torn teams to shreds on many occasions, and Chelsea have Hazard capable of similar.
We have Mata and Di Maria, both of whom should be performing at a similar level to those I just listed, but quite simply, dont.
luke shaw......is the best full back we have had at United since Gary Neville at his very best. He's an outstanding left full back. Play him as one and he'll confirm that statement within a couple of games. Nothing goes past him, its nice to see a United player actually get stuck into a proper tackle too.
We're better on paper than in real life.
Di Maria, playing in midfield, is among the top ten best players in his position. And he most definitely is world class. I wouldn't look into our midfield as an issue at all.
We have a good squad but not up to our standards yet. We lack any sort of defensive cohesion, no top centrebacks. Our midfield is pretty good - many options with Mata/Fellaini/Herrera/Carrick/Blind. Our strikeforce should be tearing up the league based on reputation but it's not happening, RVP and Falcao could be past their best if we use recent matches as examples, while Rooney is always changing positions.
We need a Strootman type in there, but the ones we have along with him will be great. To me it is the defence that has now become the big problem, it is stopping us playing the formation we need to play to get the best out of that midfield and our forward line.
There was a former American Football coach who once said "At the end of the day you are what your record says you are." Our record says what we are a team fighting to stay in the top 4 but not looking like a sure thing.
I don't think we need a Strootman type at all. We have enough variety as it is. We'll still get Strootman mind, and sell Herrera, in all likelihood.
Our attack is IMO the biggest issue. Our defence has not really been leaking goals lately, it's out attack that has struggled in the past two months. We need a young striker with pace, tough job seeing as there aren't many of them going around. I honestly cannot see who we could sign to strengthen our forward line.
Are you deliberately trying to piss me off.
Are you deliberately trying to piss me off.
Why would I? I don't think we need Strootman. We have a good blend of midfielders with defensive capabilities (Blind, Fellaini, Carrick) and offensive ability with workrate (Herrera, Di Maria).
Our attack has been mostly poor this season.
But we can't play all those players at the same time. Our balance between attack and defense is always tilted one way or another.
Which is why we don't really need to add another player to the selection to have even tougher choice. We could mix them up as they are now and always have a good selection available. I don't see Strootman as the sort of a midfielder that would change the way we play.
I actually agree, however its obvious LVG doesn't as he keeps playing Rooney in midfield.
Carrick Blind Herrera & DiMaria is an excellent midfield, not sure why the boss doesn't see/trust it.
You could even rotate in Fellaini in there to add height and physicality.
Our forwards this season have been especially poor, we do however need reinformance at the back.
What we need is someone who brings more than one attribute to the pitch at one time, rather than choosing what attribute to leave out of our team.
I don't object to getting Strootman, but I don't want to be losing players, except Anderson, Cleverley etc. Our squad has been stretched to the limits this season and wasn't great the season before. Defenders, we need defenders. He has to decide what damn formation he is working towards for next season then make sure he has the personel. As long as it isn't 3-5-2 I will be happy. This team needs to be exciting not pragmagtic. I am worried that he is now that obsessed about not conceding goals that he forgets we now desperately need to be winning games. Goals win games as well as loses them. I would much rather we outscore teams and not keep worrying about conceding.
before wasting more money on players, i think LvG should get the best out of his current players, and he isn't close to that.
i wouldn't trust him with choosing new players.
i wouldn't trust him with choosing new players.
Nah, not even close. He's a very unusual type of central midfielder, with attributes that are atypical for the role and has worked in a specific team that got the best out of him due in no small part to having two genuinely world class central midfielders alongside/behind him.
On his day he's a game changer but there are loads of CMs who are better than him at the nitty gritty of playing central midfield and would have been better suited to our needs. I'd even say Blind has done more to improve us in central midfield than Di Maria has.
I agree he's world class at his best but he's an odd player who a lot of very good managers have struggled to get the best out of. So it's no great surprise that Van Gaal seems to find him a conundrum too. His signing has arguably created as many problems as it's solved.
I like Fellaini and would not have a problem him being in there somewhere. I would rather pick a side to complement the best players we have, not restrict them by complementing the worst.
But what if new players are needed to bring the best out of the existing ones? If you could magic up an experienced, dominant, orgainsing centre back with a leader's personality, you'd see the performances of our other centre backs shoot up.
Last season he was definitely a world class midfielder. This season before we moved him to a wing and then attack he was also very good there.
'Not even close' is such an exaggeration.
There is something about Herrera he clearly dislikes and I don't think that is going to change. He'd rather play a forward in midfield, replacing that forward with a midfielder up front, than use him which is pretty telling.
Not sure I understand your last point, but he is a good option to have coming off the bench IMO.
We don't have major issues in midfield if we pick the right team.
Blind Carrick covering the defence, and starting attacks, with Herrera as the box to box player and Di Maria as the attacking/counter attacking outlet.
Fellaini in this case can come in when we need more physicality in the team, or come on to change the game (as he helped with against QPR and a few other games this season)
Yes of course Strootman would be a good addition but I don't think its pressing if we use the correct formation and pick the right players.
More pressing is the lack of pace up front, and good reliable defenders who can stay fit.
Yes and he is an idiot.
This....is bullshit. Evra, O'Shea, Brown and Rafael have all been significantly better than Luke Shaw is currently. And he is far from an outstanding left back.
He has potential though and can surprass them all. But until then, he is just a decent prospect.
I just don't see him as a proper central midfielder. If we'd signed either of the other two CMs at his previous club we'd be better off right now IMO.
Not sure if I had put that very well. Instead of playing to our good points and let teams worry about our attacking capabilities, he is worrying about what other teams, no matter what league they are in, can do to our defence and over protecting them. That lot have to man up and do their jobs properly instead of relying on a Michael Carrick or Daley Blind to get them out of trouble.
Daley Blind???
The squad has an obvious flaw and that's our widemen. We have no quality in that area at all (I still think Di Maria is better in CM). It's an area we desperately need to strengthen in as our only half reliable attacking outlet from wide is Young.
Ah I see, but you do also have to worry about the opposition.
Chelsea have a very good defence, but they are heavily helped out by Matic, and in some games (like Stoke away) Matic and Mikel.
I agree with your point though, we need to impose our own attacking intent on teams more, however I don't think having Carrick and Blind as the base of our midfield is very defensive tbh, as they both have good passing and understanding of the game to start attacks, and b useful in an attacking sense.
That's true, probably what's stopping us from playing 4-3-3 at the moment. Trouble is there doesn't seem to be a lot of quality wide players on the market at the mo. Or centre backs. Or number 9s.
In fact, is football only producing diminuitive, technical midfielders these days?
I think it is a bit harsh.
The reality may be a bit simpler in that we are at the level of the tier 2 clubs in the PL. City and Chelsea are above all teams, and I would say that us, Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool - maybe even Southampton are the tier 2 clubs with not a lot between them. Without doubt we have the bigger names, but maybe the others have an advantage of having a stable first 11. Rather than say Fergie got more out of certain players, I think he had a stable way of playing that all players were comfortable in that way. It could be argued City and Chelsea, maybe even Arsenal, have had better individual players than United, but they didn't have the team structure to perform as a solid unit.
The unhappy fans - whom seem to becoming more like Arsenal fans every day - though they have a right to have their say, do seem to focus on things which they feel support their argument. They blame on 3-5-2, playing players out of position (never seen that before and United (cough), not playing Adnan, and the style of play (keep ball and slow movement). Only the latter upsets me, never liked tik tak boring football and it certainly isn't something United have been known for.
So I think we are at a level which fits the top 3-6 teams in the PL.
Cuadrado was the obvious one to go after last Summer given that he started off as a right wingback and had been gradually pushed forward and converted into a right forward. Would have made him tactically flexible, he's also got impressive goal/assist ratios.
The trouble with that pair is that neither is anything like a box to box player. If you play a 4231 and want it to be attacking then at least one of your '2' needs to regularly attack the opposition penalty area. Neither of those two fit the bill. Still my preferred option right now, but don't expect fancy football.
Score rate of 1 in 4 at Fiorentina, fine return for a wide player. And Fiorentina are keen to flog him (says the guardians podcast, whatever that's worth). Dunno what the going rate would be though.
But he's a central midfielder, the sort of a midfielder who carries the ball forward and creates opportunities for his teammates. If he can have some protection from the other two (or three) central midfielders he's bound to be vital to his team.
Your have Herrera and Di Maria who can penetrate the box. If you watch Chelsea even though Matic plays with Fab, Fab hardly penetrates the box, but he gets up there every now and again, and I see no reason why Blind coudln't. In fact he has already shown he can get forward at United.
I am not sure now that they are being encouraged to get forward the same or are too scared to leave the defence on their own.
I think we definitely have a good squad, but not a good unit yet. We're still too random, we don't know our best formation or our best line up, in this environment it's hard for individuals to shine.
You certainly don't need top quality in every position to challenge for titles, the last 2 times we've won the league we didn't really ooze quality, but we had a good working unit and stability at the back, fergie would have done wonders with the current team.
We have enough quality players for van gaal to build a top 4 team around, signing more players should elevate us to premier league and CL contenders.
You certainly don't need top quality in every position to challenge for titles, the last 2 times we've won the league we didn't really ooze quality, but we had a good working unit and stability at the back, fergie would have done wonders with the current team.
We have enough quality players for van gaal to build a top 4 team around, signing more players should elevate us to premier league and CL contenders.
I don't think he has played CM since his injury so I can't really comment on that.
Carrick has always been relunctant to get forward too much, even under Fergie.