How good is our squad, really?

I actually felt Shaw showed some real promise in some of the games before he got injured, especially going forward. I think the potential is clearly there but he seems insecure playing in the 5-3-2 as most of our other players are as well.
 
We have clear weaknesses and we all know what they are. As a result LVG, post the Leicester capitulation, has adopted a formation that makes us harder to beat but has players playing out of position and sacrificing their natural game. We will only get the best out of what we have when players are playing to their strengths and in their proper positions. Until then we'll be getting this drab fare served up.

Remember this is a complete rebuild after some pretty poor purchases towards the end from SAF and then the Moyes debacle. Despite this we are in a CL place as we speak and 1 or 2 puchases in the right area away from having a team that will most definitely challenge. Those who think we are no better off than last year should note we have beaten Arsenal, Liverpool, drawn with Chelsea and gone down fighting 1-0 to City with ten men.

In summary we are on the cusp of being seriously good. This place being on permanent meltdown doesn't help to be objective about where we are in reality.
 
On paper our team should be one of the best around. Our GK, Midfield and Attack is as good as anyone's - there are still some question marks over the defence, but our defensive record is actually not that bad.

In attack we have RVP, Falcao, Rooney and Wilson
In midfield we have Carrick, Blind, Herrera, ADM, Fellaini and Mata
In defence we have Rafael, Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Evans and Shaw

(I have obviously not included EVERY player above)

So basically, I think the squad is good enough (or should be) to do a lot better than we are doing, and it is why it is so much more painful to watch when we are playing pathetic, tumescent, languid football - because we have the capability of playing so much better. This is different to before where there were questions about the squad quality, so *some* performance issues could be excused.

With the squad listed above, LVG should be able to get a team playing some good football and challenging for the league. Again, on paper I would actually rate out squad as being second only to Chelsea's. The issue is that so many of our so-called world class players simply dont perform to the same level as their counterparts for other teams. Using @Pogue Mahone 's example in the OP, Cazorla had an absolute stormer against City last night. City themselves have Silva who has torn teams to shreds on many occasions, and Chelsea have Hazard capable of similar.
We have Mata and Di Maria, both of whom should be performing at a similar level to those I just listed, but quite simply, dont.
 
I would agree mostly with it. Shaw however is far from being a purple one. The system isn't helping him, but he needs to progress significantly attacking-wise to be considered s a top left back.


luke shaw......is the best full back we have had at United since Gary Neville at his very best. He's an outstanding left full back. Play him as one and he'll confirm that statement within a couple of games. Nothing goes past him, its nice to see a United player actually get stuck into a proper tackle too.
 
Last season the major complaint we had as fans was the lack of quality midfielders. Over the summer we acquired Blind, Herrera and di Maria so we cant say that the squad has not been strengthen but at the same time we are still lacking a World Class midfielder i.e someone who is among the top ten best players in his position.

The issue with the defense has come about when Rio and Vidic left, while they have passed their prime they were still a solid CB pairing and the trio of Evans, Jones and Smalling have proved to be unreliable at best. Rojo is not very good to begin with but then again unlike midfielders it is very difficult to find great/world class defenders case in point Barcelona.

Taking all of this into consideration, the majority of fans were not expecting us to challenge for the title this season and settle for a champions league spot. Is the current squad good enough to achieve this goal? Yes, it should be even though you can say that it is an unbalanced squad we should be able to score far more than we have. This is my problem with the 352 it provides decent defensive coverage (would'nt have mattered without DDG btw) as such I would rather sacrifice defensive coverage as opposed to creating/scoring more goals to win games. I would argue that LvG's stubbornness at the moment and the insane amount of injuries are the things that could prevent us from finishing in the top 4.

Di Maria, playing in midfield, is among the top ten best players in his position. And he most definitely is world class. I wouldn't look into our midfield as an issue at all.
 
We have a good squad but not up to our standards yet. We lack any sort of defensive cohesion, no top centrebacks. Our midfield is pretty good - many options with Mata/Fellaini/Herrera/Carrick/Blind. Our strikeforce should be tearing up the league based on reputation but it's not happening, RVP and Falcao could be past their best if we use recent matches as examples, while Rooney is always changing positions.
 
Di Maria, playing in midfield, is among the top ten best players in his position. And he most definitely is world class. I wouldn't look into our midfield as an issue at all.
We need a Strootman type in there, but the ones we have along with him will be great. To me it is the defence that has now become the big problem, it is stopping us playing the formation we need to play to get the best out of that midfield and our forward line.
 
There was a former American Football coach who once said "At the end of the day you are what your record says you are." Our record says what we are a team fighting to stay in the top 4 but not looking like a sure thing.
 
We need a Strootman type in there, but the ones we have along with him will be great. To me it is the defence that has now become the big problem, it is stopping us playing the formation we need to play to get the best out of that midfield and our forward line.

I don't think we need a Strootman type at all. We have enough variety as it is. We'll still get Strootman mind, and sell Herrera, in all likelihood.

Our attack is IMO the biggest issue. Our defence has not really been leaking goals lately, it's out attack that has struggled in the past two months. We need a young striker with pace, tough job seeing as there aren't many of them going around. I honestly cannot see who we could sign to strengthen our forward line.
 
I don't think we need a Strootman type at all. We have enough variety as it is. We'll still get Strootman mind, and sell Herrera, in all likelihood.

Our attack is IMO the biggest issue. Our defence has not really been leaking goals lately, it's out attack that has struggled in the past two months.
Are you deliberately trying to piss me off.:lol:
 
Are you deliberately trying to piss me off.:lol:

Why would I? I don't think we need Strootman. We have a good blend of midfielders with defensive capabilities (Blind, Fellaini, Carrick) and offensive ability with workrate (Herrera, Di Maria).

Our attack has been mostly poor this season.
 
Why would I? I don't think we need Strootman. We have a good blend of midfielders with defensive capabilities (Blind, Fellaini, Carrick) and offensive ability with workrate (Herrera, Di Maria).

Our attack has been mostly poor this season.

But we can't play all those players at the same time. Our balance between attack and defense is always tilted one way or another.
 
But we can't play all those players at the same time. Our balance between attack and defense is always tilted one way or another.

Which is why we don't really need to add another player to the selection to have even tougher choice. We could mix them up as they are now and always have a good selection available. I don't see Strootman as the sort of a midfielder that would change the way we play.
 
Why would I? I don't think we need Strootman. We have a good blend of midfielders with defensive capabilities (Blind, Fellaini, Carrick) and offensive ability with workrate (Herrera, Di Maria).

Our attack has been mostly poor this season.

I actually agree, however its obvious LVG doesn't as he keeps playing Rooney in midfield.

Carrick Blind Herrera & DiMaria is an excellent midfield, not sure why the boss doesn't see/trust it.
You could even rotate in Fellaini in there to add height and physicality.

Our forwards this season have been especially poor, we do however need reinformance at the back.
 
Which is why we don't really need to add another player to the selection to have even tougher choice. We could mix them up as they are now and always have a good selection available. I don't see Strootman as the sort of a midfielder that would change the way we play.

What we need is someone who brings more than one attribute to the pitch at one time, rather than choosing what attribute to leave out of our team.
 
Why would I? I don't think we need Strootman. We have a good blend of midfielders with defensive capabilities (Blind, Fellaini, Carrick) and offensive ability with workrate (Herrera, Di Maria).

Our attack has been mostly poor this season.
I don't object to getting Strootman, but I don't want to be losing players, except Anderson, Cleverley etc. Our squad has been stretched to the limits this season and wasn't great the season before. Defenders, we need defenders. He has to decide what damn formation he is working towards for next season then make sure he has the personel. As long as it isn't 3-5-2 I will be happy. This team needs to be exciting not pragmagtic. I am worried that he is now that obsessed about not conceding goals that he forgets we now desperately need to be winning games. Goals win games as well as loses them. I would much rather we outscore teams and not keep worrying about conceding.
 
before wasting more money on players, i think LvG should get the best out of his current players, and he isn't close to that.

i wouldn't trust him with choosing new players.
 
Di Maria, playing in midfield, is among the top ten best players in his position. And he most definitely is world class. I wouldn't look into our midfield as an issue at all.

Nah, not even close. He's a very unusual type of central midfielder, with attributes that are atypical for the role and has worked in a specific team that got the best out of him due in no small part to having two genuinely world class central midfielders alongside/behind him.

On his day he's a game changer but there are loads of CMs who are better than him at the nitty gritty of playing central midfield and would have been better suited to our needs. I'd even say Blind has done more to improve us in central midfield than Di Maria has.

I agree he's world class at his best but he's an odd player who a lot of very good managers have struggled to get the best out of. So it's no great surprise that Van Gaal seems to find him a conundrum too. His signing has arguably created as many problems as it's solved.
 
I actually agree, however its obvious LVG doesn't as he keeps playing Rooney in midfield.

Carrick Blind Herrera & DiMaria is an excellent midfield, not sure why the boss doesn't see/trust it.
You could even rotate in Fellaini in there to add height and physicality.

Our forwards this season have been especially poor, we do however need reinformance at the back.
I like Fellaini and would not have a problem him being in there somewhere. I would rather pick a side to complement the best players we have, not restrict them by complementing the worst.
 
before wasting more money on players, i think LvG should get the best out of his current players, and he isn't close to that.

i wouldn't trust him with choosing new players.

But what if new players are needed to bring the best out of the existing ones? If you could magic up an experienced, dominant, orgainsing centre back with a leader's personality, you'd see the performances of our other centre backs shoot up.
 
Nah, not even close. He's a very unusual type of central midfielder, with attributes that are atypical for the role and has worked in a specific team that got the best out of him due in no small part to having two genuinely world class central midfielders alongside/behind him.

On his day he's a game changer but there are loads of CMs who are better than him at the nitty gritty of playing central midfield would have been better suited to our needs. I'd even say Blind has done more to improve us in central midfield than Di Maria has.

Last season he was definitely a world class midfielder. This season before we moved him to a wing and then attack he was also very good there.

'Not even close' is such an exaggeration.
 
I actually agree, however its obvious LVG doesn't as he keeps playing Rooney in midfield.

Carrick Blind Herrera & DiMaria is an excellent midfield, not sure why the boss doesn't see/trust it.
You could even rotate in Fellaini in there to add height and physicality.

Our forwards this season have been especially poor, we do however need reinformance at the back.

There is something about Herrera he clearly dislikes and I don't think that is going to change. He'd rather play a forward in midfield, replacing that forward with a midfielder up front, than use him which is pretty telling.
 
I like Fellaini and would not have a problem him being in there somewhere. I would rather pick a side to complement the best players we have, not restrict them by complementing the worst.

Not sure I understand your last point, but he is a good option to have coming off the bench IMO.
We don't have major issues in midfield if we pick the right team.

Blind Carrick covering the defence, and starting attacks, with Herrera as the box to box player and Di Maria as the attacking/counter attacking outlet.

Fellaini in this case can come in when we need more physicality in the team, or come on to change the game (as he helped with against QPR and a few other games this season)

Yes of course Strootman would be a good addition but I don't think its pressing if we use the correct formation and pick the right players.
More pressing is the lack of pace up front, and good reliable defenders who can stay fit.
 
There is something about Herrera he clearly dislikes and I don't think that is going to change. He'd rather play a forward in midfield, replacing that forward with a midfielder up front, than use him which is pretty telling.

Yes and he is an idiot.
 
luke shaw......is the best full back we have had at United since Gary Neville at his very best. He's an outstanding left full back. Play him as one and he'll confirm that statement within a couple of games. Nothing goes past him, its nice to see a United player actually get stuck into a proper tackle too.

This....is bullshit. Evra, O'Shea, Brown and Rafael have all been significantly better than Luke Shaw is currently. And he is far from an outstanding left back.

He has potential though and can surprass them all. But until then, he is just a decent prospect.
 
Last season he was definitely a world class midfielder. This season before we moved him to a wing and then attack he was also very good there.

'Not even close' is such an exaggeration.

I just don't see him as a proper central midfielder. If we'd signed either of the other two CMs at his previous club we'd be better off right now IMO.
 
Not sure I understand your last point, but he is a good option to have coming off the bench IMO.
We don't have major issues in midfield if we pick the right team.

Blind Carrick covering the defence, and starting attacks, with Herrera as the box to box player and Di Maria as the attacking/counter attacking outlet.

Fellaini in this case can come in when we need more physicality in the team, or come on to change the game (as he helped with against QPR and a few other games this season)

Yes of course Strootman would be a good addition but I don't think its pressing if we use the correct formation and pick the right players.
More pressing is the lack of pace up front, and good reliable defenders who can stay fit.
Not sure if I had put that very well. Instead of playing to our good points and let teams worry about our attacking capabilities, he is worrying about what other teams, no matter what league they are in, can do to our defence and over protecting them. That lot have to man up and do their jobs properly instead of relying on a Michael Carrick or Daley Blind to get them out of trouble.
 
Unbalanced, but easily top 3 material and I would still put it a shade above Arsenal's, especially while they have little cover at the back (though they might solve that I guess).

De Gea (Valdes)
Rafael (Valencia)
Shaw (Blind)
Jones (Smalling)
Rojo (Evans)
Carrick (Fletcher)
Herrera (Fellaini)
Rooney (Wilson)
Mata (Januzaj)
Di Maria (Young)
Falcao (Van Persie)

vs

Szczesny (Ospina)
Debuchy (Bellerin)
Gibbs (Monreal)
Koscielny (Chambers)
Mertesacker (Flamini)
Wilshere (Coquelin)
Arteta (Rosicky)
Sanchez (Walcott)
Cazorla (Chamberlain)
Ozil (Ramsey)
Giroud (Welbeck)

Both squads could do with a defender or two.

I think if we actually played the above team for a few weeks you would see a very different United.
Daley Blind???
 
The squad has an obvious flaw and that's our widemen. We have no quality in that area at all (I still think Di Maria is better in CM). It's an area we desperately need to strengthen in as our only half reliable attacking outlet from wide is Young.
 
Not sure if I had put that very well. Instead of playing to our good points and let teams worry about our attacking capabilities, he is worrying about what other teams, no matter what league they are in, can do to our defence and over protecting them. That lot have to man up and do their jobs properly instead of relying on a Michael Carrick or Daley Blind to get them out of trouble.

Ah I see, but you do also have to worry about the opposition.
Chelsea have a very good defence, but they are heavily helped out by Matic, and in some games (like Stoke away) Matic and Mikel.
I agree with your point though, we need to impose our own attacking intent on teams more, however I don't think having Carrick and Blind as the base of our midfield is very defensive tbh, as they both have good passing and understanding of the game to start attacks, and b useful in an attacking sense.
 
The squad has an obvious flaw and that's our widemen. We have no quality in that area at all (I still think Di Maria is better in CM). It's an area we desperately need to strengthen in as our only half reliable attacking outlet from wide is Young.

That's true, probably what's stopping us from playing 4-3-3 at the moment. Trouble is there doesn't seem to be a lot of quality wide players on the market at the mo. Or centre backs. Or number 9s.

In fact, is football only producing diminuitive, technical midfielders these days?
 
The above question was a big theme last year, with a lot of us coming to the painful realisation that Fergie had been getting a bunch of not particularly great players to punch well above their weight - aided by increasingly infrequent contributions from aging world class talents.

We've flatted to deceived a bit this season. There are signs of improvement (if you look for them!) but we have a similar points total to 2013/14 and a lot of fans who are not happy with where we're at right now, despite huge investment in the summer. The criticism has focussed on the manager playing people out of position and stubbornly using a formation that doesn't seem to get the best out of the players available. However, something we're not hearing much this season is the question of whether or not he's in charge of a squad of players who are good enough to be doing much better than they are.

Weirdly, it was watching Santi Cazorla last night that made me take a step back and think about the tools at Van Gaal's disposal. This was an Arsenal player - specialists in failure - who didn't even make their best XI in the opening months of the season putting on an absolutely sensational performance. Does Van Gaal have any player in his squad who has put in a performance like that this season? Or indeed, ever? Alongside him was Ramsey, who has also been a bit crap this season but was incredible the season before and could easily get back to those heights again. How many United players could score the sort of goal he scored against Galatasaray, for example? Then you have the likes of Ozil, Wilshere, Sanchez, Chamberlain and Walcott. At various times, in various games, they've all shown they're capable of absolutely destroying the best opposition around. Giroud is no great shakes but he's keeping Welbeck out of the team, a player that many of us think would have been good enough to displace either RvP or Falcao based on the respective performances this season. Their defence has been very poor at times this season but Koscielny and Mertesacker have previously gone on a long run of games looking like one of the best CB partnerships in the league. Not something you can say about any of our lot. Gibbs is a very good fullback and - although the others have their flaws - Wenger has the luxury of choosing from two specialist fullbacks on each flank. Something Van Gaal can only dream of.

The Arsenal squad is full of players who have been a bit hit and miss but when they're at their best they can look as good as any players in their position, in any team on the planet. How many United players could we say that about? I would say Rooney, Di Maria and Mata and that's it. With at least some concerns regularly expressed about all three of them. RvP was a world class striker but will he ever be one again? I suspect not. In fact, there's huge doubts whether either of our strike partnership will ever hit the heights again.

I'm not sure that any of our central midfielders would be talked about as one of the best around. Arguably Michael Carrick but he's not getting any younger and was never thought of as belonging to the very top tier. Our two wingers are reinventing themselves as wing-backs but it's a long time since we thought we had the best wingers in the league and not many United fans would have been happy last summer if they thought Valencia and Young would be our primary options out wide. We all got giddy about Januzaj but it's increasingly apparent that this was because everything else was so crap and we were desperate for some positivity. He's been no great shakes this season and his stats from his debut season don't really tally with our expectations. I hope he'll come good but is it guaranteed? I think not. Then we have our defence. Shaw has huge potential but we're still waiting to see the best of him in a United shirt and there's huge question marks over everyone else.

So yeah, our squad really does seem lacking when you compare it with the league's "fourth place specialists", never mind the teams who typically finish ahead of them. Van Gaal's stubborness and inflexibility is infuriating but perhaps it's a response to the same horrible surprise Moyes got when he took over. We're a club with title-winning aspirations that somehow ended up with a squad that is barely capable of qualifying for the Europa League.

Am I being harsh? Or has the squad overhaul that Van Gaal needs to do to compete with the best teams around barely even started?
I think it is a bit harsh.

The reality may be a bit simpler in that we are at the level of the tier 2 clubs in the PL. City and Chelsea are above all teams, and I would say that us, Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool - maybe even Southampton are the tier 2 clubs with not a lot between them. Without doubt we have the bigger names, but maybe the others have an advantage of having a stable first 11. Rather than say Fergie got more out of certain players, I think he had a stable way of playing that all players were comfortable in that way. It could be argued City and Chelsea, maybe even Arsenal, have had better individual players than United, but they didn't have the team structure to perform as a solid unit.

The unhappy fans - whom seem to becoming more like Arsenal fans every day - though they have a right to have their say, do seem to focus on things which they feel support their argument. They blame on 3-5-2, playing players out of position (never seen that before and United (cough), not playing Adnan, and the style of play (keep ball and slow movement). Only the latter upsets me, never liked tik tak boring football and it certainly isn't something United have been known for.

So I think we are at a level which fits the top 3-6 teams in the PL.
 
That's true, probably what's stopping us from playing 4-3-3 at the moment. Trouble is there doesn't seem to be a lot of quality wide players on the market at the mo. Or centre backs. Or number 9s.

In fact, is football only producing diminuitive, technical midfielders these days?

Cuadrado was the obvious one to go after last Summer given that he started off as a right wingback and had been gradually pushed forward and converted into a right forward. Would have made him tactically flexible, he's also got impressive goal/assist ratios.
 
Ah I see, but you do also have to worry about the opposition.
Chelsea have a very good defence, but they are heavily helped out by Matic, and in some games (like Stoke away) Matic and Mikel.
I agree with your point though, we need to impose our own attacking intent on teams more, however I don't think having Carrick and Blind as the base of our midfield is very defensive tbh, as they both have good passing and understanding of the game to start attacks, and b useful in an attacking sense.

The trouble with that pair is that neither is anything like a box to box player. If you play a 4231 and want it to be attacking then at least one of your '2' needs to regularly attack the opposition penalty area. Neither of those two fit the bill. Still my preferred option right now, but don't expect fancy football.

Cuadrado was the obvious one to go after last Summer given that he started off as a right wingback and had been gradually pushed forward and converted into a right forward. Would have made him tactically flexible, he's also got impressive goal/assist ratios.

Score rate of 1 in 4 at Fiorentina, fine return for a wide player. And Fiorentina are keen to flog him (says the guardians podcast, whatever that's worth). Dunno what the going rate would be though.
 
I just don't see him as a proper central midfielder. If we'd signed either of the other two CMs at his previous club we'd be better off right now IMO.

But he's a central midfielder, the sort of a midfielder who carries the ball forward and creates opportunities for his teammates. If he can have some protection from the other two (or three) central midfielders he's bound to be vital to his team.
 
The trouble with that pair is that neither is anything like a box to box player. If you play a 4231 and want it to be attacking then at least one of your '2' needs to regularly attack the opposition penalty area. Neither of those two fit the bill. Still my preferred option right now, but don't expect fancy football.

Your have Herrera and Di Maria who can penetrate the box. If you watch Chelsea even though Matic plays with Fab, Fab hardly penetrates the box, but he gets up there every now and again, and I see no reason why Blind coudln't. In fact he has already shown he can get forward at United.
 
Your have Herrera and Di Maria who can penetrate the box. If you watch Chelsea even though Matic plays with Fab, Fab hardly penetrates the box, but he gets up there every now and again, and I see no reason why Blind coudln't. In fact he has already shown he can get forward at United.

I am not sure now that they are being encouraged to get forward the same or are too scared to leave the defence on their own.
 
I think we definitely have a good squad, but not a good unit yet. We're still too random, we don't know our best formation or our best line up, in this environment it's hard for individuals to shine.

You certainly don't need top quality in every position to challenge for titles, the last 2 times we've won the league we didn't really ooze quality, but we had a good working unit and stability at the back, fergie would have done wonders with the current team.

We have enough quality players for van gaal to build a top 4 team around, signing more players should elevate us to premier league and CL contenders.
 
I am not sure now that they are being encouraged to get forward the same or are too scared to leave the defence on their own.

I don't think he has played CM since his injury so I can't really comment on that.
Carrick has always been relunctant to get forward too much, even under Fergie.