He was wonderful tonight I felt. We might not have a concrete position for him, but I think right back is a close as that as we'll get currently. Only problem is that Rafael who has been fantastic all season plays there.
Phil Jones in midfield revisited
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
He was good because he is a powerful runner, his speed once he gets going is hard to stop.
Put a few good tackles in too but i still feel Rafael is the better choice, his passing under pressure is ALOT better, and the ability to get passed a man in tight spaces is better too.
I would personally prefer jones to be playing CB instead of wootton, but i suppose i was a way to fit them all in the team as we dont really have a back up RB.
Still think with a few more years maturity and practice he will be a CB, but a holding midfielder like busquets (without quite the technique) could happen.
Put a few good tackles in too but i still feel Rafael is the better choice, his passing under pressure is ALOT better, and the ability to get passed a man in tight spaces is better too.
I would personally prefer jones to be playing CB instead of wootton, but i suppose i was a way to fit them all in the team as we dont really have a back up RB.
Still think with a few more years maturity and practice he will be a CB, but a holding midfielder like busquets (without quite the technique) could happen.
How?
He can't play simple passes and is in the wrong defensive position nearly all the time.
Because he would basically be an auxiliary center back, which lets be honest is what we need. Granted that isn't clear and there are a number of roles he could take in that position but right now the defense need someone shielding them, and he doesnt even need to pass the ball forward in that position. *cough* Carrick doesn't *cough*
Dropping Scholes would be better, can't see him handling the tempo of City early on, he'd be more suited coming on later if need be.
Jones and Carrick worked last year against QPR and Aston Villa away where he got a goal. Carrick is the deeper lying of the two, with Jones a more conventional box to box midfielder.
Having him as an anchor man or defensive mid isn't suitable right now IMO, though he is yet to play there for United so we can't be sure. He is positionally undisciplined so would keep getting caught out. 10 yards further forward though with a holder sitting behind and his excuberance ceases to be a problem. He can close down and make tackles or break forward and it isn't a liability.
His passing could do with some work but it's not as bad as a few make out. He isn't going to split the defense in two but that isn't his role and bar Anderson none of our midfielders do that anyway. With Rooney in his usual attacking midfield slot the creative burden falls on him and the two wide men, so Jones and Carrick have little responsibility for that aspect.
He can't stay disciplined as a DM? How did he managed that for Blackburn then? Or was it simply because they were usually under so much pressure he had to stay back? Even then if he wasn't able to play disciplined he'd do a Luiz and go charging out of position unnecessarily.
That's the only downside to his play. I think he has the ability to play it Makelele-like or Gatusso-like or even a hybrid of both. Never a Busquets/Carrick/Pirlo type though.
I agree with the playing him alongside Carrick against City. The choice would then be to play Rooney as the AM or play Scholes/Fletcher as the 3rd CM and shift Rooney to the wing.
At this point I'd probably start with him vs City. Fletcher looks way off the pace, Giggs is simply a no and Scholes we can bring on for Jones after 60mins I think.
It's a big risk but we don't really have any other option.
It's a big risk but we don't really have any other option.
I really like jones, the way he runs at people and willingness to get forward. He deserves a good run in the team and can only get better.
I still think Jones could make a great job as a DM like Bender does for Dortmund.
He has the work ethic and stamina to keep going for 90 minutes which would for example free up someone like Cleverly or Anderson to venture forward more.
I somehow don't think he is suited to a box to box midfielder role he often seems to occupy when we play him in midfield, mainly due to the fact that when he is partnered by Carrick, Scholes or Giggs he is the only one mobile enough to get forward more frequently but I have a good feeling that Cleverly and Anderson would be capable of utilizing this freedom much better.
Of course he is also a capable alternative for the DR position when we need someone a bit more defensive.
It also remains to be seen if he can still become a great CB.
He has the work ethic and stamina to keep going for 90 minutes which would for example free up someone like Cleverly or Anderson to venture forward more.
I somehow don't think he is suited to a box to box midfielder role he often seems to occupy when we play him in midfield, mainly due to the fact that when he is partnered by Carrick, Scholes or Giggs he is the only one mobile enough to get forward more frequently but I have a good feeling that Cleverly and Anderson would be capable of utilizing this freedom much better.
Of course he is also a capable alternative for the DR position when we need someone a bit more defensive.
It also remains to be seen if he can still become a great CB.
I'm just now watching today's game v Cluj. Sensational stuff from Jones. Speed, power, guile, craft and courage. Get used to hearing his name, mates.
Smalling and Powell look really good too, but that's another thread for another day.
Smalling and Powell look really good too, but that's another thread for another day.
I remember everyone from Redknapp to Steve Kean to Micah Richards all tipping Jones to be a future captain one day.
It's just insanity from the highest order that fans on here are writing him off as not going to make it after he just got back from a lenghty lay off. Would be great to see him in the line up versus City but the smart money would be on Fergir playing Scholes instead unfortunately!
It's just insanity from the highest order that fans on here are writing him off as not going to make it after he just got back from a lenghty lay off. Would be great to see him in the line up versus City but the smart money would be on Fergir playing Scholes instead unfortunately!
It is indeed fascinating, and to a great degree disturbing, to witness how quickly our players get run down, especially after a run of incredible form in the prior season.
I guess it just comes with the turf on the caf.
I think he is an outstanding prospect would love to see him alongside Carrick on Sunday.
It's not what we need at all. We need midfielders who actually do midfielding. Midfielders who can't pass or position themselves correctly do not help the team.
The only time Carrick doesn't play forward passes is when he's playing like a bag of shite, and Jones doesn't really provide defensive shielding or cover when he's playing in defence, so this seems unlikely to happen if he plays in midfield.
I don't get where people on this forum get their ideas from. The only time Jones has looked good in midfield was when he played next to Carrick and spent the entire game pushing forward while Carrick sat back...and that was literally one game, against Wolves.
His best performances (note the plural) full-stop were in midfield alongside Carrick, but he has also played well there for England and played there more often than not for Blackburn. There's a fair bit more evidence that he can be a fine midfielder than there is that he'll ever be a great CB.
And people on this forum probably get their ideas in this case from the same place as Sir Alex Ferguson, Fabio Capello, Sam Allardyce, Roy Hodgson and, um, Steve Kean.
And people on this forum probably get their ideas in this case from the same place as Sir Alex Ferguson, Fabio Capello, Sam Allardyce, Roy Hodgson and, um, Steve Kean.
I think(and hope) he'll end up at CB or RB. Not in midfield anyway. I don't want a headless chicken in midfield, I want a midfielder. If we play him just at RB and CB, he can turn into a beast there.
Why do people think he's going to be a CB? He's put in performances there which make even his worst midfield displays look impressive. And, y'know, he's not even six foot tall.
I watched him and Smalling play there together in the U21 Euros, and they were amazing together. He has the things needed, the coaches just need to calm him down a bit and he needs to become less error prone. Something that I hope happens over time.
Why do people think he can become a midfielder. Have they seen him attempt to pass a ball?
For what it's worth I'm not writing him off, I still think he's a potential United and England captain and he'll be a top centre back. He might well be a good midfielder too but he's got a long way to go.
Amount of times, in total, that Phil Jones has played alongside Michael Carrick in midfield: 3
Amount of times Jones played as a defensive midfielder in these games: 0
When has he played well there for England? I only remember one decent(ish) performance in midfield for England, and that was in some friendly game at Wembley against I can't remember who, and again he wasn't playing as a defensive midfielder.
Playing in a position sometimes for Blackburn also isn't really an indication of whether you're good enough to be a defensive midielder for Manchester United. Scott Parker looked like a world class midfielder when he was playing for a relegation fodder team...it didn't stop them from being a relegation fodder team.
Chabon said:
I don't think they do. Has Ferguson ever used Jones as a defensive midfielder? Capello didn't, Hodgson hasn't.
Seriously, I'm bemused by all this. Last December Jones had a run in midfield and looked exceptional. Since then he's played there for about two hours, half as an attacking midfielder, which is mad, and half alongside a lethargic Park against Bilbao's terriers, with predictable results.
On the other hand he's played at CB four times in the last year, and we lost all four, conceding nine goals. So if you're committed to the notion that he can't be a midfielder based on recent performances, then you surely have to think he's an absolutely scandalous centre back.
I can understand people who think he's destined to be a full-back, because he has been consistent and reliable in that position, but a centre back, really?
edit: Noods, I never said he's a defensive midfielder. He's more comparable to Ramires. He performs best as one of two holders, with some defensive responsibility but plenty of opportunity to rampage forward. A lot of people are writing him off as a midfielder entirely because of his positional indiscipline, but then those same people say he's a CB...I don't get it.
On the other hand he's played at CB four times in the last year, and we lost all four, conceding nine goals. So if you're committed to the notion that he can't be a midfielder based on recent performances, then you surely have to think he's an absolutely scandalous centre back.
I can understand people who think he's destined to be a full-back, because he has been consistent and reliable in that position, but a centre back, really?
edit: Noods, I never said he's a defensive midfielder. He's more comparable to Ramires. He performs best as one of two holders, with some defensive responsibility but plenty of opportunity to rampage forward. A lot of people are writing him off as a midfielder entirely because of his positional indiscipline, but then those same people say he's a CB...I don't get it.
He's been a poor centre back for us so far but he's got all the qualities needed to complement Smalling perfectly. We saw that in the u21s and his performances for Blackburn were all as a centre back - in a back four or in 'midfield' as a third centre back.
He didn't have a run in midfield...he played 3 games there, all against extremely poor sides and all of which were made easy for him because Michael Carrick (who was playing extremely well at the time) handled all of the actual midfield responsability.
I wouldn't mind seeing him get some more games there alongside Carrick, but not away against Manchester fecking City, and not in defensive midfield against anyone. I mean, jesus fecking christ...he can't pass with any assurance or composure and currently has zero positional awareness, so people want to play him in the one role where these two things are the most vitally important? Why? Do people like watching our players crash and burn?
I don't think he's reliable enough to be used in any central position against the better sides at the moment. He is too naive, uncomposed and inexperienced, and it shows. We signed him in the hope he develops into a top class player, not to magically turn him into one before he's even 20.
He has all the qualities to be a top CB, he just needs to lose one or two things.
Also, his best match in a United shirt for me was the 3-0 against Spurs at the start of last season. One particular part I can remember, where he sprinted back and blocked a Bale(?) shot just in time, was amazing. That game had me thinking he'd be a top CB, and I still believe he'll be a top CB or RB, depending on where SAF plays him.
Also, his best match in a United shirt for me was the 3-0 against Spurs at the start of last season. One particular part I can remember, where he sprinted back and blocked a Bale(?) shot just in time, was amazing. That game had me thinking he'd be a top CB, and I still believe he'll be a top CB or RB, depending on where SAF plays him.
I don't especially want him playing there tomorrow either, but when you look at the alternatives I think he might well be the best/least worst option. If we play Fletch there he'll collapse after half an hour, and Scholes will just stand around looking annoyed while Yaya Toure walks past him. He may as well be the ginger Riquelme these days.
Well I don't disagree too much with that...but I think he'll be a centreback. He can learn the positional discipline as he gets more experience. It will just take time and probably several bouts of the redcafe posse writing him off before he gets there.
When it comes to midfield he has that plus the fact his passing under pressure and general ball retention is nowhere near good or consistent enough for him to be a reliable midfielder.
I don't think we've got any choice but to play Fletcher tomorrow, and then drop Rooney a bit deeper and just hope Carrick can put in a similar performance to last week so we can play on the break.
Although I suspect we'll play Scholes instead, put Rooney on the wing again, and spend 65 minutes wondering why it isn't working before bringing Hernandez on in place of Young for some reason.
That said, I also suspect there may be a reason why it was Scholes who sacrificially came on at half time the other night, and Fletcher kept back until 87 minutes.
He's not a fullback I don't think.
He just plays there to get the games and experience while he's still learning. Fergie's done similar with other players in the past.
He just plays there to get the games and experience while he's still learning. Fergie's done similar with other players in the past.
The only problem with that is that we already have Evans and Smalling. I suppose we might well be playing three at the back in a few years time, but when you consider the older two and Rafael's ridiculous talent (and that we have two Rafaels), I can see him he becoming a midfielder not only because of his ability, but also because both club and country are much more lacking in that area.
Anyway, because we were arguing at cross purposes there, I went back and checked every match he's started in midfield since we signed him, who he was playing with, and the position he played in. These are my assessments based on memory:
Liverpool A (Fletcher, CM) - Passable, but looked a little lost.
Spain H (Parker, CM) - Reasonable, but predictably challenged by the carousel.
Sweden H (Barry, CM) - Excellent performance.
Aston Villa A (Carrick, CM) - Dominated an admittedly poor team.
Basel A (Giggs, DM) - Didn't work, although he wasn't terrible.
Wolves H (Carrick, CM) - Demolished a poor side.
QPR A (Carrick, CM) - I don't care how poor QPR were, he absolutely monstered them.
Bilbao H (Giggs, DM) - Hah, no.
Blackburn A (Scholes/Carrick, AM) -
Spain H (Parker, CM) - Reasonable, but predictably challenged by the carousel.
Sweden H (Barry, CM) - Excellent performance.
Aston Villa A (Carrick, CM) - Dominated an admittedly poor team.
Basel A (Giggs, DM) - Didn't work, although he wasn't terrible.
Wolves H (Carrick, CM) - Demolished a poor side.
QPR A (Carrick, CM) - I don't care how poor QPR were, he absolutely monstered them.
Bilbao H (Giggs, DM) - Hah, no.
Blackburn A (Scholes/Carrick, AM) -
I agree he's probably not really cut out to be a defensive midfielder, but I honestly believe that at 20 years old he has the potential to become our Ramires, and that he's shown that more than once since he became a United player.
Future utility player specialized in defence.He should stay far away from midfield, for his good and the team's
The rewriting of history on the Caf when it comes to young English players is bemusing that's true. Exceptional, deary me.This entire forum was gushing ferociously about him as a midfielder, as was much of the press and the wider footballing world. Pretending otherwise is the true 'rewriting of history'.
Jones is a strange case.
We all see his exceptional talent, nobody in their right mind can question that.
But
- the boy looks dodgy in central midfield
-is an accident waiting to happen when plays at center back
- looks least out of place when plays at RB
I do agree he is not a perfect fit for RB either, it's a case of square peg and round hole wherever we want to utilize him but atm RB is the best place for him
The only problem with that is that we already have Evans and Smalling. I suppose we might well be playing three at the back in a few years time, but when you consider the older two and Rafael's ridiculous talent (and that we have two Rafaels), I can see him he becoming a midfielder not only because of his ability, but also because both club and country are much more lacking in that area.
Anyway, because we were arguing at cross purposes there, I went back and checked every match he's started in midfield since we signed him, who he was playing with, and the position he played in. These are my assessments based on memory:
Liverpool A (Fletcher, CM) - Passable, but looked a little lost.
Spain H (Parker, CM) - Reasonable, but predictably challenged by the carousel.
Sweden H (Barry, CM) - Excellent performance.
Aston Villa A (Carrick, CM) - Dominated an admittedly poor team.
Basel A (Giggs, DM) - Didn't work, although he wasn't terrible.
Wolves H (Carrick, CM) - Demolished a poor side.
QPR A (Carrick, CM) - I don't care how poor QPR were, he absolutely monstered them.
Bilbao H (Giggs, DM) - Hah, no.
Blackburn A (Scholes/Carrick, AM) -
I agree he's probably not really cut out to be a defensive midfielder, but I honestly believe that at 20 years old he has the potential to become our Ramires, and that he's shown that more than once since he became a United player.
We will need more than two centrebacks in the future just like we always have. Him fighting it out with Evans and Smalling would only help all three of them.
Our midfield is in desperate need of sorting out before Phil Jones will be ready to do whatever it is he ends up doing. If he ends up being a midfielder I suspect that means we wont have sorted it out properly.
Looking at that list, I wouldn't count England friendlies, and the Villa game was an extremely poor game of football if I recall. One of the worst I've ever had the missfortune of watching in fact. I make it just the two impressive midfield performances against Wolves and QPR...and, well, it was Wolves and QPR, and Carrick was the best player on the pitch in both games.
I wouldn't mind seeing him get a few more chances there when we can get away with (we certainly can't at the moment), but I'm sceptical in the long run. I don't think he's nearly composed or reliable enough on the ball to handle any kind of game where the midfield is actually contested.
The half at most. And the other half laughed them off, especially those who compared him to Duncan Edwards. What a joke.
The fact that after, what, 2 matches back? We're even talking about Jones playing in midfield in the biggest game of the season so far, shows just how unbelievably poor our midfield is. And what a total and utter cock up Fergie has made of it. Jones shouldn't be anywhere near the starting line up for matches like these yet.
Noodle you do talk rubbish at times. Jones is an exceptional young talent as is more than capable of playing centre midfield tomorrow. He has great drive is capable on the ball, a good screen for the back 4 along side Carrick plus his energy in going box to box would be a great asset to us on Sunday. I hope he starts Sunday as he is an absolute warrior of a player and he exactly the type we need to go head to head with Toure and co. Stop writing this kid of and give him a chance he was we sensational in his first 6 months here. To say this and that about him not being good enough to play midfield is rubbish at this stage truth is there is every chance he could be top class.