Phil Jones in midfield revisited

His passing was poor at times - he clearly doesn't have the technical ability for it. Everything else he did was fine. He's young, so hopefully he'll gradually develop his accuracy and weight judging on the pass over the years - whether he'll be a defender or a midfielder.
 
His passing out of defence is fine. It's a completely different skill as a midfielder, one he doesn't have. He also doesn't really know how to position himself as a defender, but he is very good at marking a man it seems.
 
So do people think he'll still be there for the home leg, or will we opt for a completely different, entirely more positive approach?
 
He did a great job as a destroyer but not as a two man midfielder. Don't get me wrong, he played great and did his job well, but Carrick was basically left playing in midfield by himself for most of the game.

I think if we continue to us Jones like that we should be playing a three man midfield.
 
He did very well defensive, winning the ball back at times, his pace is just too much. I reckon he'll play the second leg too, to mark Ron.
 
anything about now said:
Phil Jones seems like a utility player, because his flaws prevent him from truly exceling in either role. His strengths however tend to mask those flaws and usually outweigh them as well, most significantly his ability to pull off last ditch tackles. He is a lot like Carragher imo.
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What flaws does he have at centre back that prevent him from excelling? Surely you can't criticise his positioning too much given he's 20 years old? The height's not an issue as he's showed time and time again. The fact Sir Alex trusts him to mark Fellaini and Ronaldo on corners says it all. He's absolutely guaranteed to be a top player IMO, more so than any of our other young players.
 
He's a ridiculous talent.

Not many 20ys in the world would go at Bernabau and perform like that.
 
Yep, I really don't understand how anyone can say he won't be a top class center back.
 
Brwned said:
What flaws does he have at centre back that prevent him from excelling? Surely you can't criticise his positioning too much given he's 20 years old? The height's not an issue as he's showed time and time again. The fact Sir Alex trusts him to mark Fellaini and Ronaldo on corners says it all. He's absolutely guaranteed to be a top player IMO, more so than any of our other young players.
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Hmmm, interesting you said that. Last year I had him down as "least likely to be world class" because I couldn't see where he was going to play.

Last year I listed our young talent as

1 - Sure to make it - Smalling, da Gea, Rafael
2 - Should make it - Welbeck, Cleverley
3 - Can make it - Jones, Fabio

I remember having this exact discussion at the pub. Obviously a lot has changed since then, but I hope this utility aspect of his play never hinders Jones' potential. I really like the look of him recently.
 
Twigginater said:
Hmmm, interesting you said that. Last year I had him down as "least likely to be world class" because I couldn't see where he was going to play.

Last year I listed our young talent as

1 - Sure to make it - Smalling, da Gea, Rafael
2 - Should make it - Welbeck, Cleverley
3 - Can make it - Jones, Fabio

I remember having this exact discussion at the pub. Obviously a lot has changed since then, but I hope this utility aspect of his play never hinders Jones' potential. I really like the look of him recently.
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Well midfield obviously, seeing as you were adamant he is a proper option there and has played there more than as a center back, he is the solution to all our problems there!

Oh wait, you don't think we have any problems there, never mind.
 
Brwned said:
What flaws does he have at centre back that prevent him from excelling? Surely you can't criticise his positioning too much given he's 20 years old? The height's not an issue as he's showed time and time again. The fact Sir Alex trusts him to mark Fellaini and Ronaldo on corners says it all. He's absolutely guaranteed to be a top player IMO, more so than any of our other young players.
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Totally agree.

Sir Alex obviously rates Jones as being very important to our squad already, he has been deployed with jobs of great responsibility in recent weeks, the upside for him is massive. I still think that he will be a world class centre back but he does that man marking job and the right back role very well too, at age 20!
 
He is exactly what we have been missing in midfield for a couple of seasons - Ive said for a long time that he should play there more, many disagreed but they will eventually see they were wrong.
 
Rood said:
He is exactly what we have been missing in midfield for a couple of seasons - Ive said for a long time that he should play there more, many disagreed but they will eventually see they were wrong.
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He's not. What we've missed is a capable passer and composed tackler who can fill in for Carrick or play alongside him effectively in a two man midfield on a regular basis.

That's not Jones.
 
anything about now said:
Phil Jones seems like a utility player, because his flaws prevent him from truly exceling in either role. His strengths however tend to mask those flaws and usually outweigh them as well, most significantly his ability to pull off last ditch tackles. He is a lot like Carragher imo.
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He's 20. Being better and more consistent than Ferdinand, Vidic and Evans isn't easy.
 
Rood said:
He is exactly what we have been missing in midfield for a couple of seasons - Ive said for a long time that he should play there more, many disagreed but they will eventually see they were wrong.
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Agreed.

He could offer us that energetic midfielder option that Fletcher ones provided, even though I don't see him at the same level as Fletcher was during his best time he still has a lot room to grow and well he is still very young so I'm certain he will improve over the next couple of years quite a lot.
 
Cina said:
He's not. What we've missed is a capable passer and composed tackler who can fill in for Carrick or play alongside him effectively in a two man midfield on a regular basis.

That's not Jones.
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Well we have missed both a Fletcher replacement and a backup for Carrick.

I feel Jones could be that Fletcher replacement and if Fletch ever makes it back to his former self it won't hurt to have two players of his caliber in the team as well as having to players of Carricks type to chose from and if we need a more offensive option we can still play Cleverly and/or Anderson.
 
Running around as much as Jones does, other aspects of his game is bound to suffer. For the home leg I think we should opt for Cleverley, as good as Jones was, we didn't pose enough of an attacking threat with one CM.
 
NoLogo said:
Well we have missed both a Fletcher replacement and a backup for Carrick.

I feel Jones could be that Fletcher replacement and if Fletch ever makes it back to his former self it won't hurt to have two players of his caliber in the team as well as having to players of Carricks type to chose from and if we need a more offensive option we can still play Cleverly and/or Anderson.
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I've never seen Fletcher play like Jones did last night. Totally different players.

Fletcher will never make it back to his old self, let's be realistic.
 
Brwned said:
What flaws does he have at centre back that prevent him from excelling? Surely you can't criticise his positioning too much given he's 20 years old? The height's not an issue as he's showed time and time again. The fact Sir Alex trusts him to mark Fellaini and Ronaldo on corners says it all. He's absolutely guaranteed to be a top player IMO, more so than any of our other young players.
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I have to agree with this. We are a very hard group to please indeed if we are thinking this guy is not a great talent. He has his limitations at the minute but seems to grow with every game. Nullified 2 major threats against us in 2 games and we are not happy.
 
Cina said:
I've never seen Fletcher play like Jones did last night. Totally different players.

Fletcher will never make it back to his old self, let's be realistic.
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Jones is more defensive that's true but they are both players who bring a lot of energy to our midfield, who can hassle opponents and provide a lot of defensive stability by doing so.

Maybe a player like Sven Bender is a better comparison for Jones but this kind of player is an excellent partner for a more intelligent deep lying play maker type of player like Carrick.

Of course like I already mentioned against weaker opponents we can still play Cleverly or Anderson in that position who I feel offer more going forward but against teams like Real I think having someone like Jones in midfield whose main objective is to destroy their game and offer additional cover for our defense he could become an excellent choice in the coming years.
 
The last two games I've felt he's not actually been that good. Am I wrong in thinking that? Maybe I'm just looking at it from a possesion standpoint and not his marshalling of players, but I think he loses the ball way too often in midfield and lacks that quickness of thinking and passing ability to play there.
 
Cina said:
He's not. What we've missed is a capable passer and composed tackler who can fill in for Carrick or play alongside him effectively in a two man midfield on a regular basis.

That's not Jones.
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The player you describe IS Carrick, we dont need another one of those - it is good to have different options and Jones brings more energy to the midfield which has been lacking on some occasions. His passing etc will improve with time and is not as bad as some make out anyway.

Plus it doesn't need to be on a regular basis, just when required for certain circumstances - we have Cleverley to play with Carrick for other types of games, I would expect to see all 3 in the return leg.
 
Rood said:
He is exactly what we have been missing in midfield for a couple of seasons - Ive said for a long time that he should play there more, many disagreed but they will eventually see they were wrong.
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Play there more? What use would he be in our midfield in about 95% of matches?
 
NoLogo said:
Jones is more defensive that's true but they are both players who bring a lot of energy to our midfield, who can hassle opponents and provide a lot of defensive stability by doing so.

Maybe a player like Sven Bender is a better comparison for Jones but this kind of player is an excellent partner for a more intelligent deep lying play maker type of player like Carrick.

Of course like I already mentioned against weaker opponents we can still play Cleverly or Anderson in that position who I feel offer more going forward but against teams like Real I think having someone like Jones in midfield whose main objective is to destroy their game and offer additional cover for our defense he could become an excellent choice in the coming years.
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It's not a good comparison though, cause Bender is actually a midfielder, and he can pass the ball well and hold the ball up under pressure. Jones didn't even really play as a midfielder like night, so I can't understand how people are saying he had a great game in midfield. Carrick was pretty much in midfield by himself whilst Jones was attached to Ronaldo (who was always in our final third) and basically just made himself an utter nuisance to the opposition.

Solius said:
The last two games I've felt he's not actually been that good. Am I wrong in thinking that? Maybe I'm just looking at it from a possesion standpoint and not his marshalling of players, but I think he loses the ball way too often in midfield and lacks that quickness of thinking and passing ability to play there.
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Depends how you look at it, I think he was given a job, nullify Ronaldo and be a pain in Reals arse when they had the ball in our half, and he did it very well. If you assess it as if he was playing in midfield, then no, it wasn't a great performance. He was sloppy in possession and his first touch was lacking.
 
Rood said:
The player you describe IS Carrick, we dont need another one of those - it is good to have different options and Jones brings more energy to the midfield which has been lacking on some occasions. His passing etc will improve with time and is not as bad as some make out anyway.

Plus it doesn't need to be on a regular basis, just when required for certain circumstances - we have Cleverley to play with Carrick for other types of games, I would expect to see all 3 in the return leg.
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Hence I said we need a player capable of replacing Carrick should he get injured or require a rest!

No point debating here if you're not going to read what I post.
 
Solius said:
The last two games I've felt he's not actually been that good. Am I wrong in thinking that? Maybe I'm just looking at it from a possesion standpoint and not his marshalling of players, but I think he loses the ball way too often in midfield and lacks that quickness of thinking and passing ability to play there.
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He's been absolutely fantastic at his assigned role. See Pip v Vieira for example. But his performance at all other aspects of a midfielder he's been average. Not that it's a problem mind.
 
In front of our goalkeeper and behind a 60 year old Giggs and Scholes
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Totally agree.

Sir Alex obviously rates Jones as being very important to our squad already, he has been deployed with jobs of great responsibility in recent weeks, the upside for him is massive. I still think that he will be a world class centre back but he does that man marking job and the right back role very well too, at age 20!
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He's shown such maturity since day one really, and Sir Alex obviously saw that in him in the Blackburn performance. I myself had no idea who he was at that point! I actually hadn't a clue who he was when we signed him and didn't follow the transfer talk at all, but I was sold the minute I saw him team up with Smalling in the u21s.

The thing is he's just excelled at every task he's been given. I thought he looked a good ball-playing centre back at the Euro u21s, but then he showed a whole different side to him for us when he looked excellent as a marauding right back. Showed he had one of the best crosses in the team before he'd even played 10 games for us. Even then though, he looked a little rash looked like he lacked a bit of positional discipline. So what does he next? He excels in a role where discipline is the key skill. He's brilliant. Very underrated by opposition fans too - I know Everton, Liverpool and Spurs fans who all think he's "a bit average".

I don't agree about the midfield talk just yet though, he's still got a way to go in that department. What he's been doing recently is nothing like what Fletcher did. Fletcher was very highly rated in the youth teams because he was great on the ball (for that level). Yes he was a harrier but his best quality was maintaining possession, not winning it back. He ran around a lot but he wasn't a strong tackler. Nicky Butt was a stronger tackler but again he was a good passer, he was there to bring balance to the side by keeping things simple and holding his position in midfield while the rest got forward. That's what Carrick does. Neither of them played as midfield destroyers and neither played like defenders, they were natural midfielders. What Jones has been doing recently is a defender's job, just slightly higher up the pitch. That's what Phil Neville did. We've never had a player like that in our midfield regularly. He's still yet to show if he can play a proper midfield role. Yes he brings energy to the table just like Fletch but that's where the comparison ends, Jones needs to show he can retain the ball as well as Fletcher at the very least before he's capable of playing in midfield for us.
 
He did a good job in marking Ronaldo. For a midfielder, he just doesnt have the technique or passing ability imo. His positioning when we are in possession shows he is a defender
 
Cina said:
It's not a good comparison though, cause Bender is actually a midfielder, and he can pass the ball well and hold the ball up under pressure. Jones didn't even really play as a midfielder like night, so I can't understand how people are saying he had a great game in midfield. Carrick was pretty much in midfield by himself whilst Jones was attached to Ronaldo (who was always in our final third) and basically just made himself an utter nuisance to the opposition.
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Which is needed in some games.

Sometimes you need a player whose main objective is to interrupt the opponents game and provide some cover for defense and while Sven Bender might be better player overall he is also a few years older and I think Jones can still develop in that sense.

Of course for the majority of league games he would probably not be the best choice and Cleverly would probably be the best choice but that has always a main thing about SAF he values a lot of different player types so he has an option for a specific job he wants to be done and yesterday as well as against Everton Jones was the man for the job and I think he did it quite well.

I'm not arguing he should start there every game because let's be honest against most PL teams that sit deep and only attack on the counter he would probably be a waste and having Clev or Ando in the team the better option.
 
Some being the key word here, as in, one in ten games, which begs the question...

how does that make him exactly what we've needed in midfield for the last few years?

He wasn't even playing as a midfielder, seriously, watch the game, he barely set foot out of our third.
 
No matter what level Jones is at as a midfielder, this was always going to be extremely difficult. He was going to look even less comfortable with how high Madrid press early on in games. We just didn't have it right at the beginning of the game. Whatever we changed in the second half, he looked alot better. From the little i looked at our defensive line during the game, there was too much space between the back four and midfield early on and it was much better as a unit after that.

There was an excellent picture after the latest Clasico, where it showed each teams players all within about 30 yards of eachother with acres and acres of space in behind the back fours but so little room to work in midfield. You can't quite get the sense of it until you see an aeriel shot. No chance any of our players can play themselves out of that.

As tempting as a 3 man midfield is to accommodate both himself and Cleverley, we just never have any fluidity going forward and it does not suit our best attackers. Jones was the right choice for this game and depending on our shape in the next leg, he will play again. He is closer to the kind of player we need in there next to Carrick in a big game than any other player we have right now.
 
Escobar said:
He did a good job in marking Ronaldo. For a midfielder, he just doesnt have the technique or passing ability imo. His positioning when we are in possession shows he is a defender
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Yep he doesn't make himself available enough. Was still a very decent display, and given time I reckon we could have a midfielder on out hands!
 
Thinking back to the summer when we were linked to various Midfielders and Ferguson's quote of "I don't think we have ever played a defensive midfielder", well we know that isn't true. Phil Neville did a great job in the big games playing as a defensive midfielder, completely snuffing out Vieira a few times. Before Fletcher blossomed, he did a great job as a third man in midfield with Scholes and Keane in the big games notably against Chelsea a couple of times.

So where does it leave Phil Jones? Well I think his future is at centre back. I wasn't sure at first but it's easy to forget he is barely 20. Another 6 seasons with us and he will be the same age as Vidic was when he signed. That said, it's enormously encouraging to think that he can play this defensive midfielder role when called upon. I think it was a coincidence that the Everton game and the Madrid game were back to back and Jones was asked to do a job on Fellaini and Ronaldo. How many games a season will we realistically ask him to do this? Ten at most I would guess depending on Champions League fixtures.


What it means for me, is not that we have the answers to our midfield problem, just that we now have an out and out defensive midfielder. He's too limited in his passing to be an option for most games and we still need another proper midfielder who like Cina says, can deputise for Carrick although seeing Cleverley's mature performance against Everton I am less worried about that now.
 
We have plenty of options in centre back and limited options in midfield, adding that his positioning sense is somewhat worrying as centre back, so its only natural he will play more in midfield this season.
 
I don't see why people threw it out the window so early to be honest, no-one visioned Phil as a cesc or Iniesta midfielder, but a defensive box to box he could do quite a job, a lot of energy, very focused, obviously his passing etc needs working on, but at Manchester United, I doubt there are many better places.

Can I ask though, who in MIDFIELD would do a better job of man marking someone such as CR/Messi than Phil Jones that you believe would be a good aquisition for this club? For age/performance, I don't think Midfield is necessarily his prime position, but he can do a fecking job
 
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