You laugh at RAWK, but the Caf is the same sometimes.
Phil Jones
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I think Smalling will be back for the City game. Jones will be back in the middle.
Why is that even relevant? People are discussing his performance tonight and all you can think of is rawk.
At last some sensible opinions in this thread from (in particular) yourself, Livvie and Vidic in Moscow.
It's fine as long as it is balanced. He's quick, strong, has a good leap on him and is determined. His positioning lets him down, that's why he doesn't win headers because his starting position lets him down. Rio isn't aerially dominant but against Wolves he won loads of headers off of brilliant positioning. He's a work in progress. Right now though his attributes are best suited elsewhere where positioning shortcomings are less noticeable.
Three goals suggests otherwise! That Jones was a liability in defense compounded it - I thought we'd have been better served with Jones in midfield actually. But we had no choice because of the dammed injuries.
My point was that right now, he's not "class". He's a great talent, but he's shown as many signs that he's not set out to be a centre-back as he has moments of quality.
Compare him to Evans at his age, Evans was positionally sound, read the game better and was not prone to the same rush of blood to the head or mad moments as Jones has had.
He's a midfielder for me, and a fecking quality one at that.
What's more RAWKish is the refusal to accept that there's any problem, or to criticise performances.
On RAWK they're always blaming someone else, notably the officials.
Obviously he has more abilities than the few I mentioned. His positional sense as a centre-back is fine, not excellent - not terrible and his natural ability shines through. Attacking too much can also be coached out of him should Fergie see it as a problem, it's not a fundamental error that Jones is beneath improving on.
I too think he is a good enough midfielder - if that's the sort of midfielder you want - but I think he will be an absolutely class centre-back, and I still think that after tonight's game.
The problem is, people are quick to blame players but will rarely question management or other factors beyond the players.
I've heard from a good source that Smalling wasn't in training since the Fulham game.
Like said in the press conference thread.........Fergie hasn't said the truth about Smalling's "ilness".
It was the same with Fletcher last season.
Not guilty on that score.
Not you personally.. just something I've noticed on here!
He's a totally different defender to Evans and always will be. He's definitely shown signs of being a potentially brilliant centre-half though. Even glimpses of it tonight.
Whilst I agree with that, Jones has the physical attributes which Jonny doesn't and it's easier to develop the mental/tactical side of the game then the physical side.
Some of his tackles are utterly brilliant but they're down to determination, speed and strength...qualities that aren't in question. The fact he maybe has to make so many of them shows about his reading of the game at this moment in time.
For me the key difference between Evans & Jones is that Evans makes the kinds of mistakes that make you think 'Jesus Christ... does this guy even know what a centre back is? and the errors of Jones are simply put down to being 19 and naive, like I've said, his natural ability has shined through and far outweighs naive mistakes unlike Evans.
Just saw that own goal again, fecking hell.
If Jones were 6'2-6'3 I wouldn't doubt him becoming a top class cb but at 5'11 I simply see his future in another position/s. Apart from Cannavaro I can't remember any world class centre backs as short as Jones. There is so much ability in him that it would be a waste having him as a cb anyway.
Every time I see you posting in the football forum you seem to be criticising someone for something.
If you have such a problem with 'the Caf' just dont log on.
He can't be 5'11, he looks taller than that, he's listed at 180 cm but that's 6'0 not 5'11 even though they say it is. Not completely out of the realms of possibility that he could grow an inch or two, only 19.
But why would you want to coach his attacking instincts out of his game? That's what I don't understand. He's a natural footballer and if he played in midfield it wouldn't surprise me if he got over 10 goals a season with the way he breaks forward.
Why stifle that so he can play a position that doesn't come naturally to him?
I would agree with this. At the start of the season I felt he played very well in CB. Obviously since then his role in CM has been a bit of a revelation, however I don't think this means that he can't play in defense at all. Obviously over time he will naturally come to favour one over the other, but with good development there's no reason why he can't be used in a versatile manner.
I would agree that his height could be a concern. We looked weak tonight aerially. But I don't remember noticing this too much at the beginning of the season, and not all CBs are 6ft +, so I think it's worth continuing to play him there when needs be, potentially working on developing his partnership with Smalling.
Because by trade he is a centre-back, and he was bought to play centre-back, and shows much promise as a centre-back? Just because he has other elements to his game + made some natural mistakes of a young man of his age in a tough position doesn't mean we should call off all bets and put him in midfield.
You listed his nativity in attacking when he shouldn't as a weakness of a centre-back, I countered that by saying it's easily coached out of him should management deem it a concern.
To say playing centre-back 'doesn't come naturally to him' is a massive joke imo and something I refuse to debate.
A very young player with huge potential, what ever position he ends up playing in he will be a huge asset to us, there will be mistakes along the way, but thats life.
It doesn't. He's all over the place, but gets by on his other attributes. He can't read the game or understand the position like Smalling or Evans.
Edit - at VIM
Edit - at VIM
Of the positions I've seen him play CM looks to be his best at the moment.
No doubt long term he'll be a CB but right now he's just too naive and not physical enough.
Its not a criticism of him, name any 19 year old whose playing CB.
No doubt long term he'll be a CB but right now he's just too naive and not physical enough.
Its not a criticism of him, name any 19 year old whose playing CB.
I prefer him at RB without a doubt. Let's him go on his penetrative runs and positioning/marking isn't quite as important, an area he needs to improve on. Awesome player, needs to be allowed the time to improve but for me he's a strong RB every day.
I am worried to be honest. Not because he isn't good, he clearly is, but because he doesn't really stand out in any positions that he has played so far. He has all the ingredients to become a top class player but where exactly and how good is he going to be?
He won't be a top class right back, he won't be a top class midfielder, he will find it tough to become a top class centre half. He is however quite good in all these positions, just not good enough to be considered at the highest tier.
He won't be a top class right back, he won't be a top class midfielder, he will find it tough to become a top class centre half. He is however quite good in all these positions, just not good enough to be considered at the highest tier.
Well this is where our opinions differ and can't really be debated with any kind of substance.
I'm of the opinion that he is good enough for a centre-back, with no utterly preposterous errors - just a few naive ones and otherwise highly impressive and you think his errors make him not even a natural centre-back.
Agree to disagree.
Yep, one of the standout right backs in the league for me. He's shown potential at central midfield and obviously thinks he'll end up at centre back but I do think RB is his best position currently. He can be direct, use his good crossing, his stamina and defensive abilites whilst playing there.
despite the keystone cops conceding another 3 fecking goals
the team looks devoid of leaders
Not good when players like Giggs are on the field. He was probably one of the worst performers tonight.
If you lot don't want Jones, we'll have him.
He's going to be a superstar.
He's going to be a superstar.
Not sure what game you watched TBH
No one's saying they don't want him or that he's shit. Just that he shouldn't be played at CB at the minute.
I think it's pretty unanimous he's going to be a fabulous player. We just disagree on what his best position in.
I felt sorry for him, it was tough to watch. He's only 19, so there is plenty of growing left to do and learning left in the game.
Ba has been giving experienced Premier League defenders a tough time so it was difficult to watch Jones being left out to dry on that one.
All apart of the learning curve.
Ba has been giving experienced Premier League defenders a tough time so it was difficult to watch Jones being left out to dry on that one.
All apart of the learning curve.
Some people are writing off his scope for development. At the age of just 19 that seems a bit silly when you see how much potential he possesses as a footballer.
The fact that he's become a regular in our team so soon is a testament to his ability. Just like De Gea, we shouldn't be expecting to see the finished article so soon. There will be setbacks along the way but I have a lot of faith in him to be a versatile player that will specialise as a CB. We've seen him play well there before, not just in the league but especially with the England U21's where him and Smalling gave us a glimpse of the future for club/country. He had another sloppy game but his defending will only improve the more time he spends in training with our coaches and role models like Ferdinand and Vidic.
I hope these OG's don't develop into a bad habit though.
The fact that he's become a regular in our team so soon is a testament to his ability. Just like De Gea, we shouldn't be expecting to see the finished article so soon. There will be setbacks along the way but I have a lot of faith in him to be a versatile player that will specialise as a CB. We've seen him play well there before, not just in the league but especially with the England U21's where him and Smalling gave us a glimpse of the future for club/country. He had another sloppy game but his defending will only improve the more time he spends in training with our coaches and role models like Ferdinand and Vidic.
I hope these OG's don't develop into a bad habit though.
I've seen a few posts like this. Who's writing him off? I've not seen any of that. It's mainly been posts along the lines of:
"He's gunna be awesome BUT right now he's a fecking liability at centre half."
I'd say that's a fairly accurate assesment.
Jones will come good no doubt it.
Just have to remind ourselves that he is 19 actually.
Just have to remind ourselves that he is 19 actually.