Riots in Ferguson, St Louis

Sir Matt said:
Should the police officer in the reddit case just hope it's not a knife? The man is already verbally threatening to kill him and moving towards him swinging the object at him. Sure he's wearing a vest, but there are some rather vital areas it doesn't cover (face/head, neck, femoral arteries, lower abdomen, etc). If the officer had been in side street where there was no lighting to move into or the man had charged him before he could move him into the light, what would you have him do? Wait to be stabbed before shooting?

I don't know how often it happens, or any of these, but if it was an average sized man fighting a 6'4 300 pound man, it certainly could happen. The vast majority of uses of force do not result in shootings or other serious injury to either party. The disparity in size, strength, etc. is often overcome with nonlethal weapons like tasers or pepper spray.

Of course it's not proportional to the population. Nor are crime rates proportional to the population. Almost 40% of violent crimes in the US are committed by black people, while their population is closer to 12%. Whites make up 72% of the population but 59% of the violent crime arrests, though the DOJ statistics include Latinos in white. Murder arrests are split essentially 50-50. There are a number of reasons, especially poverty, for increased crime rates in certain demographics, but saying that police violence is racist because it isn't proportional to the population doesn't encompass the broader picture.

Of course race plays a part in how some suspects are treated and how often people are stopped. It's why TSA agents "randomly" select the Sikh at the airport, instead of the white or black guy. People, law enforcement and almost everyone else, profile every day. It's unfortunate but it's reality. That's not an attempt to excuse it, but it's such a societal problem that it can't really be fixed by legislation or rules.

While the data set is limited, this article suggests that ≈25% of "justifiable homicides" by police were black. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/police-killings-data/14060357/
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Its just a little bit strange that it seems to be a uniquely American problem though? Leaving the guns for a second, seeing as we're talking solely about 'unarmed' suspects (and we're seemingly including anybody who isn't holding a gun in this). The majority of the rest of Western police forces has seemingly learnt a way of dealing with such suspects without shooting or killing them for the majority of the time.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...ll-one-suspect-every-nbsp-day?detail=facebook

You'd think that in Germany, Japan and the UK, countries with a combined population a little less than the USA, we'd have a few more deaths if this was a justifiable situation to shoot to kill? I live in the UK and I've visited the other two countries, I'm pretty sure none of them are crimeless utopias and I feel like the criminals may hold a knife or two between them. So why is it the US that shoots?

I'm talking more about the drug statistics. That blacks and whites use drugs such as marijuana equally but blacks are far more likely to be stopped randomly to be searched for drugs (despite whites being statistically more likely to have it on their possession when searched), more likely to be arrested and more harshly treated when jailed (probably due to the previous arrests they've picked up for previous similar offences).

I'm not sure what your point is with that paragraph considering that my underlying point is that the black population in the US faces structural violence from the moment they're born in many cases. I agree that this can't be changed with just legislation. It is a much more underlying problem.
 
When White people (in the case of Ferguson) – i.e. people of privilege - refer back to the US civil rights movement of 1950s and 1960s to justify a call for non-violent protests and for leaders like MLK it must be recognized that we are calling for mythologized actions and figures as they are glorified today. We are not asking for real figures as they existed and real actions as they occurred in their time and context.

The truth is that nonviolence during the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s resulted in beatings, arrests, bombings, killings, and severe and violent police actions. Nonviolence was not accepted as just social action. Rather it was portrayed and viewed as rioting that threatened social order. Nonviolent social protests were not portrayed differently from how we portray protest by people who are oppressed today.

MLK as the face of the Civil Rights Movement that is most recognized today was not loved and accepted in his time. He was tolerated by some and he and those around him made their voices heard, but many white people including those in power did not respect him, they despised him and his actions resulted in beatings, jailing, and ultimately his death.

Those of us in positions of privilege and power must understand that the very act of calling for nonviolence implies recognition that particular injustices and oppression cannot be ignored and must be rectified. We therefore must also recognize that we have no right to speak about and demand nonviolence from the people impacted by these injustices and oppression if we do not act upon our recognition of a need for deep structural and legal change. Nor can we demand nonviolence if we don’t stand as allies with those who are oppressed and if we don't respect and uplift their voices.

If we, as people of privilege and power, demand nonviolence of others but do not act for change ourselves, if we criticize the methods that others use to struggle for change but do not take action to demand and work for change ourselves, we are at least tacitly accepting the continuation of the systems of oppression that we are saying nonviolence should be used to overcome.


Taken from a friend across the pond.

I'd like to emphasise that I am actually not saying that this particular case was due to racism or profiling. I don't personally know and we'll have to see what further information comes out. The pattern is rather obvious though and something needs to be done at the very fundamental level of American society.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/ferguson-michael-brown-blame-poverty-not-race

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/25418-where-were-the-soldier-cops-at-bundy-ranch

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watching-ferguson-through-very-different-eyes

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...8/18/how-the-rest-of-the-world-sees-ferguson/

Some articles I found quite interesting. Others may of course disagree.
 
barros said:
Media trying to create racism from statistics, cops stopped me a few times at night because I looked "suspect", I don't care and I wish the cops on my town to be like that. A black man is killed every 28 hours by who? Are the police, security guards and vigilantes all white? Like the one in Florida because he killed a black teenager he was white but if he saved a child from any danger I'm sure the media would say a Hispanic saved a child. Media creates all this circus and people buy it. I'm Portuguese I have black friends from Portuguese ex-colonies and they don't give 2 flying f** about the word N and they prefer to be around the Portuguese and Brazilians than the black Americans which they told me they are racist against black Africans.
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As I said, I'm not 100% sure of the validity of that statistic and so I'm not putting much stall on it, there are more important verifiable stats than that.

They're not bothered by the N word? Good for them. So if a random white man walked down the street and called them a fecking nigger, they'd bid him a good day and move on? And what relevance does that have regardless, we're talking about the structural problems 'African Americans' face in the USA? Those that can trace their lineage back a long time ago, not those who've arrived recently.

I agree that black Americans often do not treat Africans very well. Seeing as neither of them hold much power in 21st Century America, I'm not sure what the relevance is?

Though I will say Sylla is quite cheeky to say Blacks in the US don't take advantage of the 'opportunities' presented to them. I agree that there needs to be far far more focus on education within that community and they have all kinds of problems they need to sort out themselves. They're thrown a rather bad lot from the government from the very beginning in many cases though.

Oh well, we're getting off track here now.
 
Those of us in positions of privilege and power must understand that the very act of calling for nonviolence implies recognition that particular injustices and oppression cannot be ignored and must be rectified. We therefore must also recognize that we have no right to speak about and demand nonviolence from the people impacted by these injustices and oppression if we do not act upon our recognition of a need for deep structural and legal change. Nor can we demand nonviolence if we don’t stand as allies with those who are oppressed and if we don't respect and uplift their voices.

If we, as people of privilege and power, demand nonviolence of others but do not act for change ourselves, if we criticize the methods that others use to struggle for change but do not take action to demand and work for change ourselves, we are at least tacitly accepting the continuation of the systems of oppression that we are saying nonviolence should be used to overcome.


Really liked this bit africanspur. Who is your friend if I may query
 
African-American police officer: Ferguson 'heart wrenching'

By Aleem Maqbool
BBC News, Ferguson Missouri



The St Louis Post-Dispatch conducted an analysis of how the racial makeup of the police in the St Louis area reflects the communities they serve. Some findings include:

  • Ferguson's population is 67% black; the police force is 7% black
  • In 31 communities who participated in the survey, black citizens make up 10% or more of the population. In 30 of those communities, the percentage of black residents is higher than the proportion of black officers.
  • Officials site a lack of applications from black candidates as part of the problem: one community received three black applicants out of 81 total candidates.


The killing of unarmed teenager Michael Brown lead to days of protests in the town of Ferguson, Missouri, and amplified a rift between the town's African-American residents and the police in the region. But what about police officers who are also black?

The BBC's Aleem Maqbool spoke with a black female police officer who works in the St Louis area.

She discussed her take on the controversy in Ferguson and the realities of race on the force. Out of consideration for her job, she asked not to be identified.

Before you joined the police force, what experiences did you have with the police in this area?

Experiences that made me feel disrespected, less of a human being. I have been stopped in my car and accused of doing some things I don't think I'd done.

The tone was different. In some senses, it is almost as if the officers I had the interactions with could not care less about who I was, that I was beneath him so he didn't have to extend a level of respect. I felt personally attacked.

I wanted to join the police to make a difference. I thought I could explain things from a citizen's perspective, and explain things to the community from the law enforcement perspective.

Now do you feel like an outsider among your colleagues in the police force?

I do, very much so. I don't relate with a lot of them, I haven't lived similar lives to them.

It may be a combination of being African American and a woman, but there are certain events I am not included in, or even informed of.

Maybe in their growing up they didn't have a lot of interactions with African-American females from the inner city - they're uncomfortable with it, but instead of trying to address it, they avoid it, even fear it.

So when black people in Ferguson say the issue is not just about Michael Brown, but the way they have been treated as a community, do you agree?

I can completely agree with that. It [the killing of Michael Brown] should be a learning experience.

Quite possibly the officer was in fear, as was the young man. It is sad no one is addressing that. Why was he [the police officer] so afraid of him that he had to use such intense force, and why was [Michael Brown] in such fear that it happened [that] way?

I don't know who is to blame for these perceptions, but it's almost like a fear-based society. You're told this certain type of people behaves in a certain type of way, and it sticks with you throughout your life. They never take the time to find out if it's true.

Do you think that is governing how some officers behave when they take to the streets?

I certainly do. And because nothing is being done to force those interactions, it's just grows. It's why communities are divided.

Do you think it makes it easier for some of your co-workers to shoot dead a black man?

I don't feel they would have that same connection or compassion with that individual, so it may make it easier for them.

Do you think what's happened in Ferguson over the last couple of weeks might make some of your white colleagues listen more to the kind of things you and other African-American officers have been saying about their negative dealings with black people?

No, absolutely not. It's actually created that divide and made it larger. It's made it harder for me to want to talk to them about it any more.

They are so disconnected from it. Their rationale, perception and interpretation of the issues are so far-fetched.

The comments they make are very one-sided and show such a lack of compassion and understanding, or even the desire to understand. It's heart-wrenching. It's been very difficult.

What do you mean about your white colleagues perception of what has happened in Ferguson as being "far-fetched"?

[In Ferguson] I see a hurt group of individuals, and they see a bunch of unruly ignorant people.

They are treating it as if this community is full of an angry mob that wants to just tear up everything and they should be satisfied with what they had.

But the point is you shouldn't make such an assumption that they should be happy with what they had. They shouldn't. You wouldn't be.

I know Ferguson is not a group of ignorant uneducated people that are unruly. They are just a bunch of frustrated people who have tried and tried, but have been met with negative results.

You have a few apartment complexes in Ferguson, but there's a lot of neighbourhoods, well kept lawns. Where people work together as a community - they have jobs, work hard every day. They are probably exhausted, they're just trying to build [a] better life for families.

What do you think will make your colleagues realise they need to work harder in their relations with the community?

It's really hard to say. They're not the minority, they're not the ones that need to be forced to understand it. So, as the minority, you've just got to handle it, you deal with it and you move along and accept it.
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The two cents from an American of Mexican ancestry:

People of color in this color generally feel greatly aggrieved by the situation our families find ourselves in during our youth. We're outcasts because of the color of our skin and our economic status. It's very easy to express outrage in these situations (Ferguson) even if, as appears the case here, this was not a racially motivated slaying.

In short, what we're really hearing are the primal screams of African-Americans or Latinos who are, generally, poorer than most other Americans. Our history is one of looking for opportunity and instead being met with abuse at worst, and, indifference at best.

To be clear, explanation does not equate to justification.
 
Its going to be a contentious trial, as the law is usually weighted towards law enforcement. As long as the cop can show he acted in self defense, as he will when he claims Brown tried to tussle with him at the car door, he can use it as a means to justify shooting him - even if Brown had has hands up moments later. Massive riots will follow if this cop gets off.
 
Raoul said:
Its going to be a contentious trial, as the law is usually weighted towards law enforcement. As long as the cop can show he acted in self defense, as he will when he claims Brown tried to tussle with him at the car door, he can use it as a means to justify shooting him - even if Brown had has hands up moments later. Massive riots will follow if this cop gets off.
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I don't recall any riots after Zimmerman got acquitted.

Not dismissing the anger in Ferguson, but a majority of the emotion is on social media. In real life, the overwhelming feeling is apathy about the situation.
 
adexkola said:
I don't recall any riots after Zimmerman got acquitted.

Not dismissing the anger in Ferguson, but a majority of the emotion is on social media. In real life, the overwhelming feeling is apathy about the situation.
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This is obviously more intense than the Trayvon Martin trial, mainly because it comes on the heels of Zimmerman's acquittal, as well as numerous other cases such as the guy who was killed in NY recently. If this cop gets off, there will be a massive eruption of protests and probably significant riots.
 


This is a horrendous bit of footage.

A young black man tasered, in front of his kids, for what seems to be no good reason at all and despite explaining exactly what he was doing and where he was going.

It's easy to say that if he'd given his name none of it would have happened but he's very polite at all times, despite obviously being irritated about the police being called when he's done nothing wrong. If that sort of heavy-handed policing is common in America you can see why whole demographics grow up thinking of them as utter cnuts who can't be trusted under any circumstances. Makes me so glad I live where I do. You get the occasional arsehole in uniform but I can't imagine this kind of sudden escalation to violent arrest ever happening in Ireland when someone is being as polite and reasonable as this bloke. Shameful stuff.

I wonder how quick his kids will be to cooperate with the police when they're next stopped and searched?
 
Pogue Mahone said:


This is a horrendous bit of footage.

A young black man tasered, in front of his kids, for what seems to be no good reason at all and despite explaining exactly what he was doing and where he was going.

It's easy to say that if he'd given his name none of it would have happened but he's very polite at all times, despite obviously being irritated about the police being called when he's done nothing wrong. If that sort of heavy-handed policing is common in America you can see why whole demographics grow up thinking of them as utter cnuts who can't be trusted under any circumstances. Makes me so glad I live where I do. You get the occasional arsehole in uniform but I can't imagine this kind of sudden escalation to violent arrest ever happening in Ireland when someone is being as polite and reasonable as this bloke. Shameful stuff.

I wonder how quick his kids will be to cooperate with the police when they're next stopped and searched?
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That is horrible and very anger inducing watching that.

You'd think people like the police and those in authority would be properly evaluated, but clearly they aren't. I've been pulled over before in the UK and basically bullshitted and threatened by a cop who's partner then tells me to ignore him because he's had a bad day, and I'm white. So I can only imagine being black in a country where they are basically free to do whatever they want to you.

I don't think this guy should have pointed his finger and started talking about being black though, but he was well within his rights not to give his name there. Those kids are going to grow up hating the cops and the cycle continues.
 
He was a bit riled up (presumably by the security guard who called the filth on him) but never stopped being reasonable and it looked like such a simple situation to defuse.

Incomprehensible that any policeman in that situation felt the best way forward was to taser him. I'm naturally inclined to be a little bit skeptical about all these reports of police harassment but that video really hit home, for some reason. Probably because they didn't seem to give a shit even after he told them he about his kids. It beggars belief that nobody in uniform was willing or able to use a bit of common sense and take the heat out of the situation. Absolutely disgusting that they used handcuffs and tasers. Just don't see that situation escalating like that in the UK or Ireland. Although that might just be through the filter of my own experiences as a white man?

Whatever, a really good example that the more tooled up a police force is the less skilled they become at handling confrontational situations without resorting to violence.
 
adexkola said:
I believe you are required to provide name to police when asked. Here in the states.

But yeah, idiotic policeman escalating things over a pointless matter.
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I thought you had the right to remain silent?
 
vi1lain said:
I thought you had the right to remain silent?
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That's part of the rights you have when you're actually being arrested. Not sure it applies before that point.

EDIT: Think I might be wrong on this point. The right to remain silent does seem to exist other than in the context of an arrest.
 
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Did a quick google. Yer man did everything he should have done, in accordance with UK law.

Stop and question: police powers
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A police officer has powers to stop you at any time and ask you:
  • what you’re doing
  • why you’re in an area and/or where you’re going
However, you don’t have to answer any questions the police officer asks you.
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He responded to both those questions, with very reasonable/plausible answers. Should have been the end of the whole confrontation at that point.

Be interested to know if you have less rights in the US or not. Land of the free, an' all that.
 
adexkola said:
From what I understand, a police can ask you for proof of identification in a public place. Beyond that you're well within your rights to tell the cop to kick rocks. I will have to check up on that.
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I wonder if it's one of those things that varies from state to state?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's part of the rights you have when you're actually being arrested. Not sure it applies before that point.

EDIT: Think I might be wrong on this point. The right to remain silent does seem to exist other than in the context of an arrest.
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That's what I thought

adexkola said:
From what I understand, a police can ask you for proof of identification in a public place. Beyond that you're well within your rights to tell the cop to kick rocks. I will have to check up on that.
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I don't think they can stop and ask you to identify yourself out of the blue.
They of course will want you to and will ask you questions where you unknowingly give them consent but you are free to say 'No I wouldn't like to identify myself mr officer, am I free to leave?'
They will try and make it seem as though by you not answering you have something to hide, but unless there is probably cause or they are suspicious of you for a particular reason they can't demand you to do that.
I think some states where illegal immigration is high they can ask but that's very few (and still morally wrong IMO)

I'll have to look this up to be sure though

edit - yep looked it up and like i thought they can't just stop you for no reason and ask you to present your ID to them.
If they think they have a reason to detain you, you are still within your rights to say nothing other than demand to see a lawyer and stay silent.
 
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A police officer needs probable cause to detain you and can't just ask for your ID for no reason, especially if you are in a public place doing nothing illegal. You are under no obligation to ID yourself and you don't have to say anything. This isn't Nazi Germany where they can stop you and ask for your papers.

The trouble is if you decide to exercise your rights it can turn ugly, as that video showed, and they are very good at covering themselves and it's rare for a bastard pig like that one to ever face sanction. If you are a black guy you have to decide whether you want to stand up for yourself, or just accept the daily casual racism and get on with your life with minimum fuss.

It's a disgusting state of affairs.
 
Grinner said:
A police officer needs probable cause to detain you and can't just ask for your ID for no reason, especially if you are in a public place doing nothing illegal. You are under no obligation to ID yourself and you don't have to say anything. This isn't Nazi Germany where they can stop you and ask for your papers.

The trouble is if you decide to exercise your rights it can turn ugly, as that video showed, and they are very good at covering themselves and it's rare for a bastard pig like that one to ever face sanction. If you are a black guy you have to decide whether you want to stand up for yourself, or just accept the daily casual racism and get on with your life with minimum fuss.

It's a disgusting state of affairs.
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I didn't look it up myself but I've been told that there was a Supreme Court verdict on this issue. A cowboy was standing by his horse on the side of the road and the cop asked him for his ID. the cowboy ended up losing the case and the Supreme Court ruled that you do have to have an ID on you at all times.

Whether they're supposed to have a real reason or not to ask for it, that's really no hurdle these days. If you do get arrested and then not charge there's no punishment the cop will suffer, he has no reason not to use that power if he wants to.
 
gooDevil said:
I didn't look it up myself but I've been told that there was a Supreme Court verdict on this issue. A cowboy was standing by his horse on the side of the road and the cop asked him for his ID. the cowboy ended up losing the case and the Supreme Court ruled that you do have to have an ID on you at all times.

Whether they're supposed to have a real reason or not to ask for it, that's really no hurdle these days. If you do get arrested and then not charge there's no punishment the cop will suffer, he has no reason not to use that power if he wants to.
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well, if that's the law, then that's the law

now don't come telling me that that's the land of the free, because that's bulshit
 
Marcosdeto said:
well, if that's the law, then that's the law

now don't come telling me that that's the land of the free, because that's bulshit
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It's such a vicious circle. The state is is represented by tooled up, over-aggressive thugs. Who rarely pay any penalty for over-stepping the mark. You end up with an innate distrust of the state in all sections of society (some with good reason, others based more on a perceived threat) and the solution? The right to bear arms. What could possibly go wrong?
 
Pogue Mahone said:


This is a horrendous bit of footage.

A young black man tasered, in front of his kids, for what seems to be no good reason at all and despite explaining exactly what he was doing and where he was going.

It's easy to say that if he'd given his name none of it would have happened but he's very polite at all times, despite obviously being irritated about the police being called when he's done nothing wrong. If that sort of heavy-handed policing is common in America you can see why whole demographics grow up thinking of them as utter cnuts who can't be trusted under any circumstances. Makes me so glad I live where I do. You get the occasional arsehole in uniform but I can't imagine this kind of sudden escalation to violent arrest ever happening in Ireland when someone is being as polite and reasonable as this bloke. Shameful stuff.

I wonder how quick his kids will be to cooperate with the police when they're next stopped and searched?
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95% of people who join the police do so because they get a kick out of feeling like they have power over others. It shouldn't surprise you. The two 'officers' in that video should be imprisoned for a long time, and should never serve as lifeguards never mind in the police force ever again. Of course, they won't be, and of course, this will continue to happen, because the law enforcement isn't there for much more than to serve the government's agenda and make people feel afraid. Have you ever needed the police at a time in your life? If you have, you'll probably agree with me.
 
Oh also, someone should have the right in that situation to hold the officers up with a firearm and prevent them from assaulting a member of the public.
 
gooDevil said:
I didn't look it up myself but I've been told that there was a Supreme Court verdict on this issue. A cowboy was standing by his horse on the side of the road and the cop asked him for his ID. the cowboy ended up losing the case and the Supreme Court ruled that you do have to have an ID on you at all times.

Whether they're supposed to have a real reason or not to ask for it, that's really no hurdle these days. If you do get arrested and then not charge there's no punishment the cop will suffer, he has no reason not to use that power if he wants to.
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en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada
 
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