Do you know what the word genocide means?
Russia Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
In this case genocide is the deliberate destruction, in whole or in part, by a government or its agents, of a racial, sexual, religious, tribal or political minority. It can involve not only mass murder, but also starvation, forced deportation, and political, economic and biological subjugation. Genocide involves three major components: ideology, technology, and bureaucracy/organization.
In this case?
I noticed your little addition there. Political groups are not included in modern laws concerning genocide.
In international law genocide is:
any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
What is happening in Eastern Ukraine is not genocide and only a troll or a fool would think otherwise. Even Putin hasn't played the genocide card for fecks sake.
Ukraine must pay for Russian gas sent to rebel areas: Medvedev
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-must-pay-russian-gas-sent-rebel-areas-173837735.html
What next, will he want reimbursing for the cost of the artillery shells as well?
That's a bit of an overreaction. The idea that marginalized classes of society fighting wars makes it more palatable to public opinion is not new or exclusive to Russia.
You misrepresent his views in the second paragraph, as I believe he was saying that if the EU had a well trained force of 20,000 soldiers ready to go at the beginning, they would have been able to repel the Russian troops.
Snyder may be wrong, but he has quite a bit more credentials than you on the subject of Eastern Europe so saying he is not even as smart as "retards" is quite petty.
Very good article. Basically, Putin has to lie about not being in Ukraine because Russians wouldn't support such an action for the reasons Putin is actually doing it. Also, a bit about how Russian kids are being duped into fighting in Ukraine.
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-conscripts-tell-fears-being-sent-ukraine-122703194.html
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-conscripts-tell-fears-being-sent-ukraine-122703194.html
^ Speaking of lies...
Indeed, i was reminded of this story from the BBC when you originally posted:
Given the severity of the fighting in the intervening months, who knows how many other Russian families have been deceived in a similar fashion.
It exposes the evil of Putin's web of deceit - not only is he lying to the world about his troops being in Ukraine, he's also lying to his own citizens and the grieving Russian parents whose kids he sent to die for a war he denies is happening - all of which you support. Give yourself a nice pat on the back you moral paragon, you.
Indeed, i was reminded of this story from the BBC when you originally posted:
BBC team under attack in southern Russia
18 September 2014
A BBC team has been attacked in the southern Russian city of Astrakhan.
They had gone to investigate reports of Russian servicemen being killed near the border with Ukraine.
The team's cameraman was beaten up and the camera smashed during the attack. The recorded material left in the car had been deleted, the team found after returning from the police station.
The BBC has lodged a formal protest with Russia over the incident and called for an investigation.
The authorities in Astrakhan have launched a criminal case into the attack, Russia's Interfax news agency reports.
Memory cards wiped
The team had just left a cafe in the town when at least three aggressive individuals approached our car, confronting and attacking us, says BBC Moscow correspondent Steve Rosenberg.
Using physical violence the men grabbed the camera, smashed it on the road, and then escaped with it in a getaway car.
During the scuffle the BBC cameraman was knocked to the ground and beaten.
The team is now safe and back in Moscow.
Following the attack, the team spent more than four hours being questioned at a local police station.
During that time, the recording equipment left behind in the car was tampered with, our correspondent says.
The hard drive of the main computer as well as several memory cards with video material had been wiped clean.
Interfax quoted the head of the Astrakhan Region interior ministry's press office Petr Rusanov as saying "a criminal case" had been launched after police had received a report of an attack on a cameraman who had been "beaten and robbed by unidentified persons".
The BBC said it deplored the act of violence, which it described as "part of a co-ordinated attempt to stop accredited news journalists reporting a legitimate news story".
It has called on the Russian authorities to condemn the assault and launch a "thorough investigation".
An official with the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said the attack was "utterly and totally unacceptable".
"What we are witnessing is a clear sign of harassment of free media in Russia," added the OSCE's representative on media freedom, Dunja Mijatovic.
For video interview with the sister :: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ukraine-truce-crumbles.385184/page-54#post-17110278
Given the severity of the fighting in the intervening months, who knows how many other Russian families have been deceived in a similar fashion.
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What a regime.....
http://www.newsweek.com/russian-mothers-waiting-news-their-missing-sons-267909
".....For example, near the Russian town of Pskov, close to the border with Estonia, the graves of two paratroopers, who allegedly died fighting in Ukraine, have been stripped of identifying signs. Journalists attempting to investigate the graves have received death threats, while a local opposition politician, Lev Shlosberg, was beaten after publicising the paratroopers’ mysterious deaths".
http://www.newsweek.com/russian-mothers-waiting-news-their-missing-sons-267909
".....For example, near the Russian town of Pskov, close to the border with Estonia, the graves of two paratroopers, who allegedly died fighting in Ukraine, have been stripped of identifying signs. Journalists attempting to investigate the graves have received death threats, while a local opposition politician, Lev Shlosberg, was beaten after publicising the paratroopers’ mysterious deaths".
Russian news report: Putin approved Ukraine invasion before Kiev government collapsed
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/article10854134.html
BERLIN
A Russian newspaper claims to have an official government strategy document outlining the invasion of Ukraine that was prepared weeks before the Ukrainian government collapsed last year.
The editor of Novaya Gazeta, Dmitri Muratov, reported the document during an interview with Echo of Moscow, a radio station. In the interview, which was reported by news outlets Saturday, he did not reveal how the newspaper came into possession of the document in the media unfriendly Russian world, but said he had confidence it was authentic.
Novaya Gazeta is considered a rarity in Russia these days, an independent investigative newspaper that’s known to anger the Kremlin on a regular basis. The editor said the paper’s plan is to publish the full details of the strategy document next week.
Muratov said the document characterized then Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych as “a person without morals and willpower whose downfall must be expected at any moment.” Yanukovych fled Ukraine for Russia on Feb. 22, 2014.
Muratov said the Russian document appears to have been drafted between Feb. 4 and Feb. 15 last year. He said the overall strategy included plans on how to break Ukraine into autonomous sectors, immediately attaching now war-torn southeastern Ukraine to Moscow’s tax union, with a longer term plan for annexation.
The plan suggested “the main thrust should be Crimea and the Kharkiv region, with the aim of initiating the annexation of the eastern regions.”
The strategy document also calls for a public relations campaign to justify Russia’s intervention. The newspaper did not release further details of the strategy at this point.
However, Muratov said that the strategy paper contradicts the Kremlin’s claim that it annexed Crimea as a reaction to residents there feeling threatened by Ukrainian nationalists in Kiev. If authentic, the strategy document also would appear to have outlined the precise course of the pro-Russian separatist rebellion in the Donbas, which includes two regions, Donetsk and Luhansk.
Beyond that, Muratov said that while he could not definitively show who prepared the document, he could with some confidence speculate that the authors included Russian oligarch Konstantin Malofayev, who has been reported to have funded the pro-Russian uprisings in Crimea, including giving $1 million to the new mayor of Sevastopol.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/article10854134.html
BERLIN
A Russian newspaper claims to have an official government strategy document outlining the invasion of Ukraine that was prepared weeks before the Ukrainian government collapsed last year.
The editor of Novaya Gazeta, Dmitri Muratov, reported the document during an interview with Echo of Moscow, a radio station. In the interview, which was reported by news outlets Saturday, he did not reveal how the newspaper came into possession of the document in the media unfriendly Russian world, but said he had confidence it was authentic.
Novaya Gazeta is considered a rarity in Russia these days, an independent investigative newspaper that’s known to anger the Kremlin on a regular basis. The editor said the paper’s plan is to publish the full details of the strategy document next week.
Muratov said the document characterized then Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych as “a person without morals and willpower whose downfall must be expected at any moment.” Yanukovych fled Ukraine for Russia on Feb. 22, 2014.
Muratov said the Russian document appears to have been drafted between Feb. 4 and Feb. 15 last year. He said the overall strategy included plans on how to break Ukraine into autonomous sectors, immediately attaching now war-torn southeastern Ukraine to Moscow’s tax union, with a longer term plan for annexation.
The plan suggested “the main thrust should be Crimea and the Kharkiv region, with the aim of initiating the annexation of the eastern regions.”
The strategy document also calls for a public relations campaign to justify Russia’s intervention. The newspaper did not release further details of the strategy at this point.
However, Muratov said that the strategy paper contradicts the Kremlin’s claim that it annexed Crimea as a reaction to residents there feeling threatened by Ukrainian nationalists in Kiev. If authentic, the strategy document also would appear to have outlined the precise course of the pro-Russian separatist rebellion in the Donbas, which includes two regions, Donetsk and Luhansk.
Beyond that, Muratov said that while he could not definitively show who prepared the document, he could with some confidence speculate that the authors included Russian oligarch Konstantin Malofayev, who has been reported to have funded the pro-Russian uprisings in Crimea, including giving $1 million to the new mayor of Sevastopol.
You're one of the few worthwhile posters in here mate, the fact that no one seems the least bit disgusted by these deaths shows how desensitised people can become when agendas come before humanity.
I am no fan of Russian politics or aggression but the imperialist nature of the west is every bit as hard to accept.
I suppose it gives a stronger enemy for our woes than plain old poverty and austerity.
Embarrassing - I suppose the murders are ok then.....
Deary me it is not covered in the dictionary definition - it really is time to give up.
What do you expect to happen when a "rebel" group seizes military equipment and wages war on the government? It's war. People die, particularly when the "rebels" are readily using the civilian population as human shields. How do you feel about the Russians bombarding civilians and the Ukrainian military from within Russia and then throughout the East? Shooting down civilian commercial airliners?
Also, what do you expect the government to do with the people in the East? They are allegedly "in rebellion" and working for their own government, if you believe the Russians, but they still want their pensions, medicine, food, etc from the central government that they are rebelling against? If they want the benefits of being Ukrainian, which they seem to from those articles, they should perhaps work to stop the Russians from taking over their region. If they truly want independence, they don't seem to understand the concept.
The Union didn't keep giving money, supplies, and medicine to the Confederacy during the US Civil War. Should we ask the Chechens how they were treated by Putin? I'm sure he ensured that there were never any civilian casualties.
So when Putin does it to Chechens it's wrong, but when Poroshenko does it to the people of Donbass it's fine and dandy?
I expect the so called government to do what governments do: provide its citizens with means to exist. If they claim they fight for the united Ukraine, they have an odd way of doing this, don't you think? They have no right to deny people their pensions, wages etc. They earn those pensions in Ukraine and they're entitled to them no matter where they happen to live. It's not their fault one part of the population toppled the old regime in Kiev while the other part in the southwest disagreed. Just because they had a misfortune to live in that particular area of Ukraine doesn't give the government the right to leave everyone behind, let alone proceed to kill them. How can you even begin to justify something like that? For example, there are thousands of elderly living in villages in the war zone that are unable to leave and they are simply dying, either from hunger, diseases or shelling. The hospitals have no funding, the medications are scarce and no one had any sort of financial help from Kiev since the summer. What are people that are caught in the middle of all this supposed to do? And what possible justification can you come up with for this? How can you defend something like that? No matter what anyone thinks of Putin and Russia, these are Ukrainian citizens that their own president abandoned. And what I might I ask, is Poroshenko going to tell those who will survive once it's all over? "It was all for your own good?" He and his cronies are criminals, puppets backed by the US and the EU and no amount of western propaganda is going to change that.
Turn on the captions and enjoy. The Ukrainian president on people of Donbass.
Last, but not least. I'm glad you concluded your investigation about who actually shot the commercial airliner long before the official verdict is in. Kind of reminds me how the western politicians, one by one, started throwing accusations at Putin and Russia hours (!) after it had happened and before anyone even got to the place of wreckage. That should tell you something.
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It may be an overreaction, but he's wrong. I don't need credentials on Eastern Europe, I live here. I know about the Russian army because I served in it. I know about what's going in the actual war zone because I've visited my friend in Lugansk couple of months ago and saw things for myself. I also lived in NYC for a number of years, so I'm aware how the situation looks from both sides and how mass media from both sides distorts things.
Snyder may be a professor but he needs to stick with what he actually knows. He's so off base here, it's laughable.
If Russia had honoured its commitments to Ukrainian sovereignty none of those people would be dead now. If it hadn't tried to force the trading union on an unwilling population, they would still be alive. If Putin had not orchestrated the rebellion and then armed it, they would be alive. If he hadn't put Russian troops, tanks and heavy artillery across the border they would probably be alive.
The rebellion would be over it's leaders would have fled back to Russia from whence they came and peace and law and order could be re-established but Putin won't allow that to happen because it wants Ukraine as buffer zone and damn any number of Ukrainians who they get killed in the process.
You support this unnecessary slaughter, the man that made it happen and you agree that it is all worth it. Crocodile tears I say, this is on you and people like you who support Putin's actions the way you do.
Being close to an issue is a double edged sword. It makes you better informed but hardly impartial.
I've found that the best response to those online who fervently support Putin on Ukraine is to largely ignore them. They'll post a 1,000 YouTube videos and articles and you could take a week off work and debunk everyone of them but they'll still say "But... NATO."
I saw a quote here (don't remember who said it): "Never argue with a fool. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you on experience."
Come on now.
You may not agree with other people's politics, but I think that's pretty pathetic.
Ukraine: Blast kills two at pro-government march in Kharkiv
A terrorist attack staged by the rebels?
Also:
A terrorist attack staged by the rebels?
Also:
Wouldn't surprise me if it was. Kharkiv is not the sort of city one can roll in with tanks and artillery and not face stiff resistenace from the locals, who despite being more Russian, are distinctly pro-Ukraine in this fight. Putin will have to start agitating from within through Russian intelligence arranged terrorist bombings, propaganda, fake anti-Kiev mobs etc, then use the ensuing chaos to justify further encroachments, eventually leading to the old "saving ethnic Russians against Ukrainian fascists" strategy.
Nobody is impartial. Or do you think the likes of Raoul et al. are honest and unbiased in this discussion? Raoul is literally campaigning against Putin and I've never seen him attacking any other political figure as much as Putin. It's almost creepy.
And with good reason. He is correctly being sussed out as enemy number one in the global order right now. A nuclear armed tyrant who is invading his neighbors is the last thing Europe or the world need right now.
And there are posters on here who will take every chance to turn a thread into some rant against the west or about the Balkans or Israel, even when the thread has nothing to do with those subjects. There are posters who are certain that USSR/Russia has never in its entire history done anything wrong, backed a tyrant, had any negative roll in the Middle East, etc etc etc. Round and round we go, it's always the other posters isn't it.
I don't particularly agree with any conflicts. In any conflict there's almost always agendas and bias from of us.
In this particular conflict, simply question yourself if there was an inevitable expansionist policy and one side was to turn out winner who's control would we prefer to live?
Russia, or Europe/USA. The answer is obvious.
In this particular conflict, simply question yourself if there was an inevitable expansionist policy and one side was to turn out winner who's control would we prefer to live?
Russia, or Europe/USA. The answer is obvious.
The last thing this planet has needed in the last several decades is the United States aggressive and reckless foreign policy which is destabilizing the entire globe. Europe also did not need your involvement in the Ukraine but you obviously had some business to do there.
If I turn against the West it is clearly because of the U.S. involvement in the Ukraine conflict. If I turn the attention to the Balkans it is only to point out the similarities to the current conflict.
Nice deflection. Still sticking up for the monster based on slavic ties i see.
Interesting that you "turn against the west" but don't turn against Russia, who have invaded Ukraine and stolen their land over the past year.
How convenient. Kind of like sniper shooting at Maidan. I bet the arrests are on the way with perpetrators guaranteed to be connected to separatists or Russia. They'll probably have Russian passports on them and FSB id cards.
That's a good bet. A country that has invaded Ukraine and stolen its land is quite likely to attempt to cause more problems like this.
I'm not sticking up for anybody. I'm just 'by default' extremely cautious when I have CNN trying to sell me their version of the events and a NATO apologist using every opportunity to blame one person for a big fat mess that started with your boys messing around in internal affairs of a sovereign state.
I'm not aware of any invasion. All I know is that the people of Crimea voted to be reunited with Russia.
Causing problems to foreign lands is something you should be very familiar with, so I'll trust your expertise on that.
Another good deflection from Ukraine.
But of course. Russia has no part in this. Its all about the free will of ethnic russians who decided to succeed to avoid being slaughtered by fascists.
It's only natural for Russia to be a part of this- it's ex-Russian territory populated with Russians! The only anomaly here are the Americans. Ukraine is 5000 miles away from your country, what business do you even have here?
Also, may I remind you that you were the one alarming everyone that the U.S. had to destroy Gadaffi so to avoid Benghazi 'being slaughtered' by his troops. The prospect of being slaughtered is a serious issue.
So are you saying that Russia has the right to interfere because the land there used to be Russian?
The sort of logic that makes the world a fun place, everyone mucking about with each other because at some point they used to be part of the same country or empire.
Russia is like the abusive ex-husband who still seeks to control his ex-wife and still tries to abuse her while she's trying to move on and improve her situation.
I'm saying that it would be understandable if Russia would be concerned with the developments in Ukraine, a neighboring country, and with the safety of the Russians there.