Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Rams said:
Gas! The German economy depends on Russian gas.
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I know. That's a problem they created themselves. Against the advice of the Americans. Their foolishness is costing Ukrainian lives. The Germans created the problem and they have to pay the price and solve it now.
 
frostbite said:
And for a long time they ignored USA that has been warning about Putin and Russian gas.
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Public opinion was quite clear, the US statements were seen as advertisement for US LNG and the Russian offer was simply better. It wasn't ignored, it was actively not giving in to this.

Especially as the warmongering US isn't that well liked in Germany, and when you consider the deaths caused by US wars in the last 20 years it is still much much more than what Russia has caused in the same time, albeit Russia seems to be performing more atrocities directly. Though I am not sure if that's really worse than what happened in the power vacuums following failed US "nationbuilding".

It's a cold hard truth that we have to decide between business partners that killed hundreds of thousands of people.
 
TMDaines said:
You think the larger war now reflects well on the political leaders in 2014? They (Obama, Merkel, Hollande et al.) are damned by their feeble inaction that emboldened Putin to now do this.
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No I think the war in Ukraine was preventable. This assertion does not imply that the invasion of Ukraine was anyone's fault but Putin's - this was solely his decision. The deaths, destruction, humanitarian disaster fall on him. What I'm saying is we could have done more to prevent it.

NATO has no business in expanding to Ukraine and Georgia. Zero. it's not in USA's national interest to extend membership to countries that will always be under the Russian sphere of influence. And it's not in USA's national interest to provoke/escalate nuclear armageddon with Russia. Even if we see NATO as a purely defensive alliance, is it really inconceivable that Russia could see our vast military power as having offensive potential? NATO did take action against Gaddafi in Libya, is it so hard to understand Russian paranoia about NATO in Ukraine?

And the most stunning thing is that despite Blinken and Biden publicly saying that NATO membership is open, they privately told Zelenskyy that Ukraine won't be part of NATO:
"But everyone in the West told me that we do not have any chance of NATO or E.U. membership. NATO is saying that it is not going to admit Ukraine. That is true." Volodymyr Zelenskyy - Fareed Zakharia CNN Interview

So what the feck is the goal here - you goad the Russians with what they genuinely perceive as a threat (NATO membership for Ukraine), whilst privately telling the Ukrainians 'sorry you'll never be in NATO'. Is Zelenskyy being played here?
 
Carolina Red said:
Well, and it frequently seems to be “our fault”, but who killed more folks over the last 20 years is probably a discussion for a different thread so it doesn’t derail this one (the Russo-Ukrainian War thread)
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I don't really care that much about what happened in the past. I really care about what is happening in Ukraine today, because I have friends there. There was a large Greek community in Mariupol.

I refer to Germany because it is the country that can do something that can help solve the problem, but no, they won't because it may hurt their economy! So, let people in Ukraine die so that the German economy faces no problems. Well, this behaviour should not be tolerated. It is telling that Zelinsky did not want to meet with the German head of state.
 
Suedesi said:
No I think the war in Ukraine was preventable. This assertion does not imply that the invasion of Ukraine was anyone's fault but Putin's - this was solely his decision. The deaths, destruction, humanitarian disaster fall on him. What I'm saying is we could have done more to prevent it.

NATO has no business in expanding to Ukraine and Georgia. Zero. it's not in USA's national interest to extend membership to countries that will always be under the Russian sphere of influence. And it's not in USA's national interest to provoke/escalate nuclear armageddon with Russia. Even if we see NATO as a purely defensive alliance, is it really inconceivable that Russia could see our vast military power as having offensive potential? NATO did take action against Gaddafi in Libya, is it so hard to understand Russian paranoia about NATO in Ukraine?

And the most stunning thing is that despite Blinken and Biden publicly saying that NATO membership is open, they privately told Zelenskyy that Ukraine won't be part of NATO:
"But everyone in the West told me that we do not have any chance of NATO or E.U. membership. NATO is saying that it is not going to admit Ukraine. That is true." Volodymyr Zelenskyy - Fareed Zakharia CNN Interview

So what the feck is the goal here - you goad the Russians with what they genuinely perceive as a threat (NATO membership for Ukraine), whilst privately telling the Ukrainians 'sorry you'll never be in NATO'. Is Zelenskyy being played here?
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Are there more sources about Zelenskyi being told that the Ukraine won't be a part of NATO? Because this is the official statement from the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest:

"NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations."
 
Suedesi said:
NATO has no business in expanding to Ukraine and Georgia. Zero. it's not in USA's national interest to extend membership to countries that will always be under the Russian sphere of influence.
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This is just you buying the Russian narrative. Talking about "spheres of influence" as if this is either a) the Cold War or b) a grand strategy video-game.
 
Denis79 said:
Are there more sources about Zelenskyi being told that the Ukraine won't be a part of NATO? Because this is the official statement from the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest:

"NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations."
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I think they’ve gone back and forth on this. In an effort to deescalate the West was putting it out there that they’d be willing to keep Ukraine out of NATO. But now that combat has gone this far, along with kidnapping of citizens to Russia and other war crimes, I imagine the benefits of adding them is more beneficial to the cause than dangling that carrot.
 
nimic said:
This is just you buying the Russian narrative. Talking about "spheres of influence" as if this is either a) the Cold War or b) a grand strategy video-game.
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Exactly so. Russia has long assumed it has the right to tell independent, sovereign nations what they can and cannot do. Them days is over.
 
Suedesi said:
NATO has no business in expanding to Ukraine and Georgia. Zero. it's not in USA's national interest to extend membership to countries that will always be under the Russian sphere of influence. And it's not in USA's national interest to provoke/escalate nuclear armageddon with Russia. Even if we see NATO as a purely defensive alliance, is it really inconceivable that Russia could see our vast military power as having offensive potential? NATO did take action against Gaddafi in Libya, is it so hard to understand Russian paranoia about NATO in Ukraine?

And the most stunning thing is that despite Blinken and Biden publicly saying that NATO membership is open, they privately told Zelenskyy that Ukraine won't be part of NATO:
"But everyone in the West told me that we do not have any chance of NATO or E.U. membership. NATO is saying that it is not going to admit Ukraine. That is true." Volodymyr Zelenskyy - Fareed Zakharia CNN Interview

So what the feck is the goal here - you goad the Russians with what they genuinely perceive as a threat (NATO membership for Ukraine), whilst privately telling the Ukrainians 'sorry you'll never be in NATO'. Is Zelenskyy being played here?
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Jesus. Russkiy mir, indeed. At least you have finally come out with the fact that you see Ukraine’s and Georgia’s natural place as Russia’s playground.

We’re still believing Russia’s rhetoric of the last couple of months and genocide in Ukraine is all a pre-emptive strike against a non-aligned Ukraine, who had no immediate hope for joining NATO prior to the war?

The West should definitely do some soul-searching and feel some culpability for having dangled carrots and exposed Ukraine, but that’s about it. NATO membership should be and always will be open to those who can meet its criteria and spread the security of peace over a wider area. I’m quite disturbed by your apparent suggestion that it should be exclusively for the wealthiest and most powerful Western countries, but Eastern Europe should be left to Russia’s devices. What a world view!
 
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Denis79 said:
Are there more sources about Zelenskyi being told that the Ukraine won't be a part of NATO? Because this is the official statement from the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest:

"NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations."
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There are two relevant facts, any European country can apply to NATO and be accepted by unanimous approval, and it is written into the Ukranian constitution to seek NATO membership.

It is obviously not realistic that Ukraine is joining NATO any time soon, while this war rages. So Zelensky made and off the cuff remark about not wasting his time with it right now. This has been twisted by the disinfo networks that he has completely given up on wanting to join NATO. It is one of many bullshit narratives that will continue to be spread by Russian propagandists and apologists.
 
Suedesi said:
No I think the war in Ukraine was preventable. This assertion does not imply that the invasion of Ukraine was anyone's fault but Putin's - this was solely his decision. The deaths, destruction, humanitarian disaster fall on him. What I'm saying is we could have done more to prevent it.

NATO has no business in expanding to Ukraine and Georgia. Zero. it's not in USA's national interest to extend membership to countries that will always be under the Russian sphere of influence. And it's not in USA's national interest to provoke/escalate nuclear armageddon with Russia. Even if we see NATO as a purely defensive alliance, is it really inconceivable that Russia could see our vast military power as having offensive potential? NATO did take action against Gaddafi in Libya, is it so hard to understand Russian paranoia about NATO in Ukraine?

And the most stunning thing is that despite Blinken and Biden publicly saying that NATO membership is open, they privately told Zelenskyy that Ukraine won't be part of NATO:
"But everyone in the West told me that we do not have any chance of NATO or E.U. membership. NATO is saying that it is not going to admit Ukraine. That is true." Volodymyr Zelenskyy - Fareed Zakharia CNN Interview

So what the feck is the goal here - you goad the Russians with what they genuinely perceive as a threat (NATO membership for Ukraine), whilst privately telling the Ukrainians 'sorry you'll never be in NATO'. Is Zelenskyy being played here?
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So to clarify. NATO on Russias border is bad, and the Russians have every right to feel concerned and intimated by this. But the likes of Ukraine and Georgia shouldn’t feel intimated by Russia on their own doorsteps, and want to take remedial action such as joining NATO?

Either way, the fact remains that sovereign countries have the right to decide their own foreign policy and alliances. Nobody has been planning on attacking Russia if for no other reason than their nuclear deterrent.

Trying to sympathise and understand Russia/Putins view is simply buying into the propaganda and misinformation they are spreading. Nothing else.
 
frostbite said:
I know. That's a problem they created themselves. Against the advice of the Americans. Their foolishness is costing Ukrainian lives. The Germans created the problem and they have to pay the price and solve it now.
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He kind of called it…

 
Ukraine's 36th marine brigade were able to join Azov batallion, thus reinforcing defense of Mariupol. Well fecking done. Heroes.
 
phelans shorts said:
I’m absolutely baffled by the point you were trying to make
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Which part of saying Putin may get desperate and use chemical weapons if he doesn't have any tangible gains to report by May 9th (his self-imposed victory day) is baffling ?
 
Raoul said:
Which part of saying Putin may get desperate and use chemical weapons if he doesn't have any tangible gains to report by May 9th (his self-imposed victory day) is baffling ?
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He’s already started using said weapons, and was always going to. Even without that apparent deadline. So I’m not sure what relevance it has to say “Russia will keep attacking”, because no shit
 
phelans shorts said:
He’s already started using said weapons, and was always going to. Even without that apparent deadline. So I’m not sure what relevance it has to say “Russia will keep attacking”, because no shit
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I don't think that's been verified as yet has it?
 
GlastonSpur said:
I don't think that's been verified as yet has it?
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It has been stated that it would be impossible to verify under current circumstances in Mariupol, so we will not get anything official on the alleged chemical attack there.

Anyway keep in mind that the Azov battalion is in a massive industrial complex, where a lot of chemicals are stored. It is quite probable that some nasty stuff was set free or was created due to fire caused by conventional shelling.
 
Raoul said:
As Putin continues to take losses, he will be more incentiized to use chemical weapons (or similar) in a desperate attempt to get a win before his desired May 9 deadline
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Then Putin better be ready to see Ukraine striking back at more targets in Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk. The attack on Belgorod was already a warning on how the war can easily spill over because Russian air defenses are just shit. As for May 9, it's time to get horses and bayonets out or perhaps more women parading than usual.

By the way, we should revisit this episode of Finnish history known as the Winter War.

 
To be fair, I don't think use of chemical weapons would be all that different in terms of military escalation compared to weapons and tactics already employed to terrorise Ukraine.

Politically its a different story of course because of the classification of WMD. 1,000 500lb bombs dropped on a city doesn't get the same attention. It would only hasten their downfall, ultimately.
 
phelans shorts said:
He’s already started using said weapons, and was always going to. Even without that apparent deadline. So I’m not sure what relevance it has to say “Russia will keep attacking”, because no shit
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I wasn’t referring to minor uses where it is being questioned if it actually happened or not. We’re talking about major false flag chemical weapons attacks against cities like Kharkiv to buy him a win that he can advertise to domestic Russians. He has no such city or region that he can use for that purpose now.
 
" Nato decision within weeks, not months - Finnish PM" - the BBC reports:

"Finland will make a decision within weeks on whether to join Nato, its prime minister has confirmed.

Sanna Marin was speaking at a joint news conference in Stockholm with her Swedish counterpart, Magdalena Andersson.

Previously, most Finns had not wanted to join Nato, but latest polls have suggested a change in opinion.

Sweden is also considering signing up to the 30-member Western military alliance.

Russia has warned both countries against the idea, arguing that it would not bring stability to Europe.

Moscow said it launched its invasion in part to try and deter Ukraine from joining the alliance."
 
TMDaines said:
What a morning it has been for European politicians letting their masks slip:

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Actually this is Ukraine's fault alone. Yes, they see Steinmeier as responsible for the close German-Russian relationship, but saying he isn't wanted in the country was a huge blunder. Invite him, maybe on the condition that he repeats in Kiyv what he has already said (that he sees that policy asa mistake now).

They should have used the opportunity to really make a point of Germany changing allegiances.

Instead they acted in line to their ambassador to Germany who single-handedly causes a lot of Germans to say "yes we should help them, despite their (un)diplomatic behaviour" and some even to outright say that we shouldn't give those ungrateful greedy bastards anything.

Diplomacy isn't Ukraine's strength, at least when dealing with Germany. Understandable due to our Russia relations, but nonetheless it isn't really motivating Germany to help.

Honestly I would be perfectly fine if we loaded a train with tanks for Ukraine and just put their ambassador into it to get rid of him.
 
stefan92 said:
Actually this is Ukraine's fault alone. Yes, they see Steinmeier as responsible for the close German-Russian relationship, but saying he isn't wanted in the country was a huge blunder. Invite him, maybe on the condition that he repeats in Kiyv what he has already said (that he sees that policy asa mistake now).

They should have used the opportunity to really make a point of Germany changing allegiances.

Instead they acted in line to their ambassador to Germany who single-handedly causes a lot of Germans to say "yes we should help them, despite their (un)diplomatic behaviour" and some even to outright say that we shouldn't give those ungrateful greedy bastards anything.

Diplomacy isn't Ukraine's strength, at least when dealing with Germany. Understandable due to our Russia relations, but nonetheless it isn't really motivating Germany to help.

Honestly I would be perfectly fine if we loaded a train with tanks for Ukraine and just put their ambassador into it to get rid of him.
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If any German sees "they're being mean" as a valid excuse to question aid for Ukraine they were never serious about it to begin with.
 
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