A people's Revolution
- Thread starter Avatar
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
A negotiated settlement resulting in Assad's removal ? I think that would work. Because anything short of that will ensure the violence goes on, excepting a military intervention to remove Assad by force.
Which ensures the violence will go on....
That's Assad's fault for waiting too long to try negotiations. He's pounded the public into submission to where there's no turning back until he leaves.
Regardless of whether he's to blame, forcefully overthrowing him will only worsen the violence. See Iraq and currently Libya to see the carnage that'll likely ensue.
There's going to be violence either way. The only option to stop it is to get rid of him and put a UN peacekeeping force into the country to deal with the aftermath.
Shocked.
People here promised us that the MB were not interested in those power struggles.
People here promised us that the MB were not interested in those power struggles.
Surprised, shocked? No, not at all
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17717268
Election officials barred the candidate from the Muslim Brotherhood(for a previous criminal conviction), former "spy chief" Suleiman didn't get enough signatures, and general loony Hazem Abu Ismail' mother has an American passport.
Election officials barred the candidate from the Muslim Brotherhood(for a previous criminal conviction), former "spy chief" Suleiman didn't get enough signatures, and general loony Hazem Abu Ismail' mother has an American passport.
Disqualified Salafi Egyptian Presidential Candidate:
All of the websites belonging to the Lebanese government have been hacked by a group calling themselves RYV (raise your voice):
http://www.presidencyinfo.gov.lb/
http://www.isc.gov.lb/
http://www.nna-leb.gov.lb/
http://www.omspa.gov.lb/
http://www.customs.gov.lb/
http://www.justice.gov.lb/
http://www.transportation.gov.lb/
http://www.moew.gov.lb/
http://www.foreign.gov.lb/
http://www.ebml.gov.lb/
http://www.bccl.gov.lb/
http://www.isf.gov.lb/
http://www.interior.gov.lb/
http://www.southernlebanon.gov.lb/
http://www.state-security.gov.lb/
http://www.presidencyinfo.gov.lb/
http://www.isc.gov.lb/
http://www.nna-leb.gov.lb/
http://www.omspa.gov.lb/
http://www.customs.gov.lb/
http://www.justice.gov.lb/
http://www.transportation.gov.lb/
http://www.moew.gov.lb/
http://www.foreign.gov.lb/
http://www.ebml.gov.lb/
http://www.bccl.gov.lb/
http://www.isf.gov.lb/
http://www.interior.gov.lb/
http://www.southernlebanon.gov.lb/
http://www.state-security.gov.lb/
So that guy is basically Glen Beck?
Abu-Ismael, El-Shater, Suleiman, I'm glad you're gone, with your posinonous and ridiculous beliefs. I believe at least will be allowed back in but we'll see.
Shafiq, Mansour, Mursi and Al-Awa, you can all feck off as well.
Shafiq, Mansour, Mursi and Al-Awa, you can all feck off as well.
Drink Mecca Cola
It is looking like the Occupy DC group will be protesting the King of Bahrain when he comes to the USA, next week.
The Egyptians are having their first ever presidential debate on tv right now, possibly the first one in the Arab world as well, between those widely tipped to get to the second round, Amr Moussa and Abdel Moneim Aboul Fatouh.
Both have been quite disappointing so far.
Seems they are currently only halfway into the debate, at 11:30 local time, having already conducted 2 hours.
Only in Egypt
Both have been quite disappointing so far.
Seems they are currently only halfway into the debate, at 11:30 local time, having already conducted 2 hours.
Only in Egypt
It was quite a poor debate in the end imo. Only managed to get through 3 hours (why was it so long???) but they spent a lot of the time arguing about the semantics of sharia law (ie you said you would apply the principles of sharia. Another time you said you would apply the general principles. Can you explain the difference?) Who gives a feck?. A lot of talk accusing each other of lying and being hypocrites or being felool (remnant of old regime) or still in the control of the MB.
Little real talk about the issues most affecting the people. Education, healthcare, poverty, corruption, jobs.
Aboul Fotouh was tailoring his speech to the revolutionaries and increasingly since their backing, the religious groups.
Moussa is going for the silent majority in Egypt, people who are scared and just want security back and some prospect of jobs. Moussa won't be the man to deliver that though.
Moussa refers to himself in the third person. And has a very dismissive and arrogant demeanour. But his history in diplomacy was clear, he was able to skillfully avoid questions far better than AF. The former leader of the Arab league referred to Iran as an Arab country. Twice.
Neither of these candidates are all that impressive. El-Baradei would have wiped the floor with them. The winner? I'd say Shafiq and Sabbahi. Neither of the two debators particularly covered themselves in glory.
But I think Moussa will win the election.
And there was more intellectual ability in this than there was in any of the GOP debates this cycle
Little real talk about the issues most affecting the people. Education, healthcare, poverty, corruption, jobs.
Aboul Fotouh was tailoring his speech to the revolutionaries and increasingly since their backing, the religious groups.
Moussa is going for the silent majority in Egypt, people who are scared and just want security back and some prospect of jobs. Moussa won't be the man to deliver that though.
Moussa refers to himself in the third person. And has a very dismissive and arrogant demeanour. But his history in diplomacy was clear, he was able to skillfully avoid questions far better than AF. The former leader of the Arab league referred to Iran as an Arab country. Twice.
Neither of these candidates are all that impressive. El-Baradei would have wiped the floor with them. The winner? I'd say Shafiq and Sabbahi. Neither of the two debators particularly covered themselves in glory.
But I think Moussa will win the election.
And there was more intellectual ability in this than there was in any of the GOP debates this cycle
So, Egypt is to be run by either the guy that ran it last time or the islamists.
I'm sure either of them will be truly dedicated to future democracy.
Glad everyone got what they wanted.
I'm sure either of them will be truly dedicated to future democracy.
Glad everyone got what they wanted.
More people voted for pro-revolution candidates than for felool. More people voted for secular candidates than for Islamic candidates.
Unfortunately, the vote was split. They should have pulled out in favour of one candidate. This is an absolute disaster scenario.
Egypt's top candidates try to broaden support
Looks like the choice is going back to a general's rule or taking what originally looked like a step forward towards an Islamist theocracy.
Looks like the choice is going back to a general's rule or taking what originally looked like a step forward towards an Islamist theocracy.
There's only one term that describes the situation the Egyptian "revolutionists" find themselves in. ZugZwang
An interesting point in time to reflect on thoughts brought on here several months ago.
Its very easy to be pessimistic about the run-off. I am for sure. As I said above, this was an absolute disaster scenario. I cannot quite believe how off the polls were either.
But its important to remember that:
-Mubarak is gone
-Egypt just had their first free presidential elections where no-one knew who was going to win
-All 13 candidates, even the military man, were going around the country asking people to vote for them. They weren't taken for granted.
-For all the talks about how Egypt cannot see beyond religion, the split of people voting secular to Islamist was 57:43. The 43 includes relative moderate Aboul Fotouh.
-People are getting fed up with the Brotherhood already. From 40% of the vote and 47& of the seats in a turnout of 55-60% in parliament, to a 25% share of a 49-50% turnout. Overplayed their hand.
-The pro-revolutionary candidates gained more votes than either Shafiq or Mursi. Shame they were split
Though saying all that:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/28/w...an-elites-fears.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
What a scary man. Had the cheek the other day to say as well the revolution has been hijacked and that he would be the one to return it
As a side note, SCAF are fecking geniuses. There is no way Shafiq would be reaching this stage 6 months ago. They've prolonged the transition and helped turn more people against the revolution.
I don't envy the choice Egyptians have to make now. I can't decide which one would be worse.
But its important to remember that:
-Mubarak is gone
-Egypt just had their first free presidential elections where no-one knew who was going to win
-All 13 candidates, even the military man, were going around the country asking people to vote for them. They weren't taken for granted.
-For all the talks about how Egypt cannot see beyond religion, the split of people voting secular to Islamist was 57:43. The 43 includes relative moderate Aboul Fotouh.
-People are getting fed up with the Brotherhood already. From 40% of the vote and 47& of the seats in a turnout of 55-60% in parliament, to a 25% share of a 49-50% turnout. Overplayed their hand.
-The pro-revolutionary candidates gained more votes than either Shafiq or Mursi. Shame they were split
Though saying all that:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/28/w...an-elites-fears.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
What a scary man. Had the cheek the other day to say as well the revolution has been hijacked and that he would be the one to return it
As a side note, SCAF are fecking geniuses. There is no way Shafiq would be reaching this stage 6 months ago. They've prolonged the transition and helped turn more people against the revolution.
I don't envy the choice Egyptians have to make now. I can't decide which one would be worse.
Its very easy to be pessimistic about the run-off. I am for sure. As I said above, this was an absolute disaster scenario. I cannot quite believe how off the polls were either.
But its important to remember that:
-Mubarak is gone
-Egypt just had their first free presidential elections where no-one knew who was going to win
-All 13 candidates, even the military man, were going around the country asking people to vote for them. They weren't taken for granted.
-For all the talks about how Egypt cannot see beyond religion, the split of people voting secular to Islamist was 57:43. The 43 includes relative moderate Aboul Fotouh.
-People are getting fed up with the Brotherhood already. From 40% of the vote and 47& of the seats in a turnout of 55-60% in parliament, to a 25% share of a 49-50% turnout. Overplayed their hand.
-The pro-revolutionary candidates gained more votes than either Shafiq or Mursi. Shame they were split
Though saying all that:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/28/w...an-elites-fears.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
What a scary man. Had the cheek the other day to say as well the revolution has been hijacked and that he would be the one to return it
As a side note, SCAF are fecking geniuses. There is no way Shafiq would be reaching this stage 6 months ago. They've prolonged the transition and helped turn more people against the revolution.
I don't envy the choice Egyptians have to make now. I can't decide which one would be worse.
Not much. we are the dumb ones. All those tahrir protests - carnivals like I've been calling them- , all those clashes .etc.. were clear traps and we fell for it.
Are you Egyptian africanspur?
Mubarak sentenced to life in prison.
Tahrir square is full of angry Egyptians though they want more, and want more against Mubarak's children.
Got off lightly...then again, it could have ended like Gaddafi. Not sure what the end for Bashar is going to be like...exile in Iran?
Is there any logic in executing an 84 year old man whos supposedly quite poorly anyway?
Don't get me wrong, I share the same abhorrence towards him as the Egyptian people do, but I think it that refraining from giving him the tempting sentence of an execution would do well in showcasing Egypt's leap towards a more progressive face.
The barbaric manner in which Gadaffi was killed only soured the image of the supposedly pro-democracy 'rebels' the western world began to champion.
Pm sent Avatar.
I have to say, I've been slightly disappointed with the way the protests after the trials were reported. There was a rush to report it as the Egyptians are out for blood and want nothing less than execution.
There was certainly an aspect of this. Especially for the families of the martyrs. I can hardly begrudge them these feelings, even if I'm personally against the death penalty. However, the anger was about something far more than this and many publications failed to pick up on this.
With an apology for being so crude, Mubarak and his family and friends have spent the past thirty years bending Egypt over and taking her from behind. They have destroyed that country. Truly. And got rich of doing so. So many Egyptians saw this as a trial not just about corruption or even the 900 people who died in the revolution. They saw it as a trial of the regime, of the NDP, of the state apparatus which has spent the last 30 years torturing and killing Egyptians, stealing, making corruption a part of everyday life and plunging the country into despair.
Egyptians didn't get that. With SCAF holding the country by the neck, they are, unfortunately, very unlikely to get that. Fine. That may come later. Democracy is, after all, a process, not a destination and the army/business regime is too ingrained to be brought down fully. At least a proper trial for what happened in those 18 days? What happened? Who ordered what?
Not that either. The sons, so far, get off without a bruise. The wife completely out of jail, living on her husband's official pension of 16,000 LE a month (with the average Egyptian's monthly income being around 100 LE). Only three figures, three of the most obvious figures, have had anything done to them. And even they on bullshit charges. For failing to stop the killings? What Egyptians want to know is who ORDERED the killings? Who released the country's most dangerous criminals from jail while simultaneously pulling all the police off the streets? Who ordered the camels and horses to descend on Tahrir? And how have Habib Al-Adly's senior police officers, running a repressive branch of government for decades, gotten off free?
So the people want justice. For some of them, that means execution, yes. But for many, it simply means knowing who did those things in those 18 days last year. And that is something they have been deprived of. Something else to go alongside education, food, clean water, sewage, health care, prospects, liberty and basic human dignity for much of the Egyptian population.
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2012/06/11/fairy-tale/
http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/the-revolution-will-be-politicised/262/
I have to say, I've been slightly disappointed with the way the protests after the trials were reported. There was a rush to report it as the Egyptians are out for blood and want nothing less than execution.
There was certainly an aspect of this. Especially for the families of the martyrs. I can hardly begrudge them these feelings, even if I'm personally against the death penalty. However, the anger was about something far more than this and many publications failed to pick up on this.
With an apology for being so crude, Mubarak and his family and friends have spent the past thirty years bending Egypt over and taking her from behind. They have destroyed that country. Truly. And got rich of doing so. So many Egyptians saw this as a trial not just about corruption or even the 900 people who died in the revolution. They saw it as a trial of the regime, of the NDP, of the state apparatus which has spent the last 30 years torturing and killing Egyptians, stealing, making corruption a part of everyday life and plunging the country into despair.
Egyptians didn't get that. With SCAF holding the country by the neck, they are, unfortunately, very unlikely to get that. Fine. That may come later. Democracy is, after all, a process, not a destination and the army/business regime is too ingrained to be brought down fully. At least a proper trial for what happened in those 18 days? What happened? Who ordered what?
Not that either. The sons, so far, get off without a bruise. The wife completely out of jail, living on her husband's official pension of 16,000 LE a month (with the average Egyptian's monthly income being around 100 LE). Only three figures, three of the most obvious figures, have had anything done to them. And even they on bullshit charges. For failing to stop the killings? What Egyptians want to know is who ORDERED the killings? Who released the country's most dangerous criminals from jail while simultaneously pulling all the police off the streets? Who ordered the camels and horses to descend on Tahrir? And how have Habib Al-Adly's senior police officers, running a repressive branch of government for decades, gotten off free?
So the people want justice. For some of them, that means execution, yes. But for many, it simply means knowing who did those things in those 18 days last year. And that is something they have been deprived of. Something else to go alongside education, food, clean water, sewage, health care, prospects, liberty and basic human dignity for much of the Egyptian population.
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2012/06/11/fairy-tale/
http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/the-revolution-will-be-politicised/262/
Oh dear, SCAF is continuing one of the sneakiest military coups in history at the moment.
Shafiq is allowed to continue (and I now feel that he will win). Parliament has been dissolved I believe (or at the least the third which were meant to be independents). And there are rumours that SCAF has now said they will nominate the constituent assembly, though I can't find confirmation of this at the moment.
Gigi Ibrahim, a prominent Egyptian socialist and revolutionary:
'We are now legally, constitutionally, and directly under military rule/dictatorship'
Looks like revolution 2.0 needs to start soon.
Shafiq is allowed to continue (and I now feel that he will win). Parliament has been dissolved I believe (or at the least the third which were meant to be independents). And there are rumours that SCAF has now said they will nominate the constituent assembly, though I can't find confirmation of this at the moment.
Gigi Ibrahim, a prominent Egyptian socialist and revolutionary:
'We are now legally, constitutionally, and directly under military rule/dictatorship'
Looks like revolution 2.0 needs to start soon.
Not gonna happen, you get one go at this...and it looks like, the military has outmaneuvered everyone.
Probably not in the short or medium term but there are far too many young people in Egypt who are pining for freedom and jobs for the old regime to be allowed to continue if they don't make positive steps in this direction.
The problem now is that the next step would be to remove the whole military establishment. And there may well be a whole lot more bloodshed in such a scenario.
I almost feel sorry for the Islamists. Shafiq isn't their biggest fan.
Brought it on themselves though, abandoned the revolution when Mubarak was gone. Shafiq calling for a civilian state