Excellent article.in the Graun
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Literally the worst possible time to conduct ad campaigns such as these:
Amazing. Morale and conditions for doctors and nurses in the NHS is at an all time low and its getting worse. I'm a consultant who's just come back from Australia for family reasons (my wife's) and am already despising it again. We'll be going back down first opportunity. We're seen as a bit of a joke down under (politics wise and medicine wise).
If I could speak a European language with enough proficiency to practice medicine there, I would prefer to stay in Europe. I speak Spanish well but not enough to work as the Head of a team. But it's not an option.
I've spoken to doctors from quite a few other countries. Let's just say the good ones aren't generally looking to come here anymore. So I can only see things getting worse.
So you won't put your money where your mouth is, I see. Archetypal Brexiter then, you fit in with Farage and Rees Mogg.
Content enough to WUM though and cast aspersions on others too.
It's not exactly like the Aussies' politicians are great, to be fair.
I have left, because Brexit is already destroying the industry I worked in so there would be no future work but he's ignoring that in favour of churlish WUMing.
I'm a consultant who's just come back from Australia for family reasons (my wife's) and am already despising it again. We'll be going back down first opportunity. We're seen as a bit of a joke down under (politics wise and medicine wise).
If I could speak a European language with enough proficiency to practice medicine there, I would prefer to stay in Europe. I speak Spanish well but not enough to work as the Head of a team. But it's not an option.
I've spoken to doctors from quite a few other countries. Let's just say the good ones aren't generally looking to come here anymore. So I can only see things getting worse.
Really?!? I worked there for a couple of years in the late 90s and they held British/Irish medics in fairly high esteem. They were shocked by our pay/working conditions though.
It's a good piece regarding the motivation of some leave voters but even then it points out how flawed their reasons for voting are.
Have you read the full article? The second half is basically saying how they still won't achieve what they originally wanted.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47080553
Is this not bribery? I was under the impression bribery was a crime, this government is only in power through bribery and now seeks to pass its motions in the same way. It's a joke.
Is this not bribery? I was under the impression bribery was a crime, this government is only in power through bribery and now seeks to pass its motions in the same way. It's a joke.
It wouldn't matter even if you did:
I think it's fair to say the contempt in James O'Brien's voice in this interview is palpable and he clearly loses his cool towards the end of the interview but JRM doesn't answer a single question; here merely deflects every one with a non-sequitur or strawman. This is to be expected from almost any politician, however look at the comments below; his acolytes trumpet some kind of grand victory without having properly listened to a word he said.
From what some people have said to me based upon their reason for voting leave, they felt that the remain campaign ran a very negative campaign based upon all of the negatives of leaving the EU and didn't speak enough about the positives of remaining. The problem there is a lot of people who voted to leave the EU voted because they perceive most of the positives of EU membership as negatives and therefore you could never run an effective campaign in that regard.
I particularly liked the Uncle Tom analogy at the start
It's a strange article, he states that brexit is based on a myth that the entire political class colluded to construct and that it has been now leveraged by opportunists which contradicts the core of the first part of the article when he says that liberals are wrong to assume that leavers have been cruelly misled, are misinformed or naive.
Apologies, by seeing it as a joke, I meant our pay and working conditions. The actual quality of our medical skills and knowledge tends to be excellent. They genuinely couldn't believe the stories I told or our salaries for that matter.
You're right, we're generally seen as incredibly competent and hard working over there, at least in part because we tend to have to. Work 2-3 times as hard in the UK/Ireland so our work ethic shines.
Seems like a riposte to what i was writing yesterday and the arguments are still poor. In order to appear woke or intellectual the narrative created is that a deep complex understanding is neccesary and rather than accepting the variance in political or economic knowledge or that people are misled by the rag papers they instead try to validate unreasonable opinions.
We all know sovereignty is a cover for taking control of immigration(for 90% of voters) but no it must be some human principle to fight the good fight.
No they're not, they're a fecking joke too, though our current lot in Westminster somehow manage to make them look semi competent.
Seems to be a general shit show across Aus/UK/USA though.
They don't have to be. We've got Americans laughing at us ffs...
Sorry to hear that. Despite what a lot of people think, it is not a happy or pleasant experience to leave your home. It is also not something that most people want to do or a decision they take lightly.
Except the Queen encourages co-operation & working together.
Isn't this basically what Mogg suggested last week?
Also not sure too much stock should be put into the opinion of a guy who is stupid enough to not only believe only 100 lorries cross the Irish border every day but post it on Twitter and claim it as fact.
Aye that's spot on, selling the benefits or warning about the risks were both losing strategies and in hindsight they should have focused on the individuals trying to take us out and labelled them extremists. Very much what the Tories do with the left.
Imo that should be the focus of any second referendum too, focus on the dodgy behaviour and embed the idea that people were lied to and the vote to remain is a vote against these crooks
That's such brilliant summary of some people's line of thought
The cheek of that wanker is incredible. He's the equivalent of a tourist in Thailand behaving like a twat with the reasoning that he's somehow financing this country and they need the likes of him.
"They have more to lose" because some areas will face a potential loss of British tourists. Hilarious negotiation position.
Thank you.
But to be fair that is just a poster and may not be representing what Scots actually believe.
I believe that the thread was about what people thought.
He isn't going to help us.
We are very much on our own on this and will either prosper or fail as a result of our own actions and decisions.
Specialists/surgeons I tutor online from quite a few countries want to have the US and UK on their CVs as they believe they're still the two best healthcare systems to have experience in.
Luckily, it wasn't my home, I was living in the UK for work so I was able to return to my own country. I'd have been looking at a much better situation career-wise if Brexit had never happened, that's for sure - it set me way back.
It represents what the English thought, the same English people who now don't give a feck what Scots and NI people think or want, as you eloquently put it yourself.
That's such brilliant summary of some people's line of thought
The cheek of that wanker is incredible. He's the equivalent of a tourist in Thailand behaving like a twat with the reasoning that he's somehow financing this country and they need the likes of him.
"They have more to lose" because some areas will face a potential loss of British tourists. Hilarious negotiation position.
And he was our chief Brexit negotiator.
Is it any wonder why things have gone so badly...
The problem is that there isn't a lot of sexy things to highlight other than simplicity for EU citizens and companies. The benefits of the EU is that it makes very disruptive and costly things disappear but you can't really sell that to people that have never experienced international trade, supply chain management and regular cross border checks. Logically they/we don't care much about it because when the goods are on shop shelves we don't think about how it got there, how many people checked them, the amount of administration required or the time that it took.
Its certainly creaking at its foundations, and the EU will be worse off without the UK, especially if its a no deal departure! However most people I know who voted leave did so for a variety of different reasons, very few of these were related to economics. If I had to give an overall terminology I would say most leavers I know voted to press a re-set button, but some also believed they were pressing a fast forward button, in either case it seemed to involve 'time travel'... unfortunately the UK Politicians don't know how to operate the Tardis
Aha. Cool. Gotcha. Australia has plenty of problems of its own (when I was there Pauline Hanson got elected) but their healthcare system is so impressive. A good deal for doctors and patients, without costing the earth. I dunno why more European countries don't adopt similar models.
This gave me a decent chuckle!
I would strongly recommend reading this policy briefing released yesterday from the Ifo Institue (leading German economic think tank).
http://www.econpol.eu/sites/default/files/2019-01/EconPol_Policy_Brief_12_Brexit.pdf
To me, their proposed solution is a very fair compromise, even if seemingly completely politically unviable on both sides right now.
This is also their take on how a ‘no deal’ Brexit would play out at the Northern Irish border:
Interesting they think UK will just avoid having to implement a hard border in this emergency situation by reducing its WTO MFN tariffs to zero. What’s your take @JPRouve ? I think you have good insight on this stuff.
http://www.econpol.eu/sites/default/files/2019-01/EconPol_Policy_Brief_12_Brexit.pdf
To me, their proposed solution is a very fair compromise, even if seemingly completely politically unviable on both sides right now.
This is also their take on how a ‘no deal’ Brexit would play out at the Northern Irish border:
Interesting they think UK will just avoid having to implement a hard border in this emergency situation by reducing its WTO MFN tariffs to zero. What’s your take @JPRouve ? I think you have good insight on this stuff.
Could someone quickly explain why in the event of a no deal brexit the £39bn that is talked about is not payable?
Surely the fact that they have arrived at that figure demonstrates that the UK is indebted to the EU for it, but how come they wouldnt seem to be indebted to them for it in a no deal brexit scenario?
Surely the fact that they have arrived at that figure demonstrates that the UK is indebted to the EU for it, but how come they wouldnt seem to be indebted to them for it in a no deal brexit scenario?
It is still payable you just see Tories shift their language around on the matter, one week they'll say we need to pay our debts then when they want to look tough they'll use it as leverage. Just conning the public.
In the same way they'll talk about getting control of our borders and then saying we don't need one in NI. How long before the public work that one out
There is no doubt the UK owes this money for obligations it agreed to while a member of the EU, the question is whether it is legally enforceable in the absence of a ratified Withdrawal Agreement, and if so what legal body would have jurisdiction to enforce payment? There are competing views from international legal experts and no real consensus opinion.
The reality, in my opinion, is that even if the UK could not be legally forced to hand over the money following a ‘no deal’ Brexit, if it ever wants a trade deal with the EU, which Britain surely needs for its long-term economic viability, the EU’s precondition to opening negotiations would be ‘give us our fecking money first’.
How is it different from a debt you have to pay? If you close your credit card you still have to pay what you owe. At nation state level trust is everything. A country must honor it's agreements or it becomes undesirable for any kind of cooperation.
The using the 39 billion as a bargaining chip thing has to be one of the silliest things brought up during hte whole issue. Which is saying something considering how many stupid/false things have been said.
Thanks, thats interesting. Can you summarise their proposed solution?
I wonder how many of the 40 eu trade pacts Liam Fox has managed to replicate so far with just 56 days to go? 20? 30?
Well, I wouldn’t compare international treaty obligations to a credit card as I think it confuses things more than helps.
In the event that the UK witheld the divorce payment, it would likely argue that it is not a one way street and it is owed its share of European assets. The EU commited to obligations to the UK as well, which would be witheld. The UK would say it is not getting its share of capital back from the European Investment Bank etc
Unlikely this argument would hold any weight, but that’s probably what we’d try.