Well i just came back from "Novorussiya" and they hate Putin in Odessa, that's for sure.
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Well i just came back from "Novorussiya" and they hate Putin in Odessa, that's for sure.
Just because they're Russians, doesn't mean they need another country. Also, you're assuming they want to be independent.
I like how you think territorial integrity is nonsense while democratic mandates are absolute.
Most of the polling indicated Ukrainians of Russian ethnic origin did not want to join Russia.
Exactly. When he says democracy, he means democracy Russian style.
Farcically, the so called referendum in Crimea only asked two questions : "Do you want to remain independent and should Crimea become part of the Russian federation". Not withstanding that the referendum was merely a tool to finalize the Russian invasion, but it didn't even bother to ask whether Crimea should remain part of Ukraine.
It exposes the evil of Putin's web of deceit - not only is he lying to the world about his troops being in Ukraine, he's also lying to his own citizens and the grieving Russian parents whose kids he sent to die for a war he denies is happening - all of which you support. Give yourself a nice pat on the back you moral paragon, you.
Check this out, an American wants to talk about morality and a government lying to its own citizens! Fabulous
Check this out, an American wants to talk about morality and a government lying to its own citizens! Fabulous
Well a person can be against a government's policy and not be branded part of that policy. Otherwise Serbians wouldn't come out looking very good would they.
I think you might be exaggerating his position somewhat, such wouldn't be at all to his benefit politically either (particularly this close to an election).
Besides, we're sending them second hand military equipment :: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...mns-armoured-vehicle-transfer-to-Ukraine.html
They might get round to finding some mothballed anti-tank weaponry given a little time.
At least they would actually have been allowed to reside there, which is more than can be said for Ukrainians in occupied Crimea.
Are Ukrainians being forcibly expelled from Crimea? Wasn't aware of that.
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So assuming the ceasefire holds for a while, does it mean a de facto separation is now in place?
How could Ukrainian government officials or forces move into separatist areas without force?
How could Ukrainian government officials or forces move into separatist areas without force?
Its really hard to say what will happen other than the immediate need to stop the fighting and allow humanitarian aid into Donbass and OSCE observers into the area as well as along the border.
Odessa isn't part of Novorossiya, you genius. Novorossiya is what the separatist leaders call Donetsk and Luhansk regions and that's where the war is going on. Odessa is nowhere near it. Next time you 'visit' there, try to learn some basic stuff. I mean, you're the Caf expert on the Ukrainian crisis.
Hey hows it going. I hear more than 100,000 Albanians have left their promised land because of a collapsed economy, corruption and mafia? My cousin tells me there hundreds of them already in Novi Sad, on their way to cross the border to Hungary. Really - you're fleeing your independent Kosova via Serbia?
Rich coming from a Serbian as in the last few years it has been Serbs that run Germany's and Austria's doors in
Rather 'in the last 20 years'. You're missing the point. I never denied Serbia's economy is bad, corruption levels are high, and people are looking for a more secure future elsewhere. My post was a dig at the American creation, the new 'independent Kosovo' where apparently everything was always Serbia's and Milosevic's fault, you would have thought the place is going to be the new Monaco once they are 'free'! Turns out the whole place is a mess and Albanian protesters are now being beaten by their own police instead of Serbian. Or as Der Spiegel summarised: "In Scharen fliehen die Menschen aus dem Kosovo - vor Korruption, Drogenhandel, Armut. Wer sich nicht mit den mächtigen Clans verbündet, hat keine Chance in dem kleinen Balkanstaat."
The U.S. left a similar gift to the people of Libya where everything is so much better now that people are 'free'.
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I'll let the map speak for itself. There's no such thing as Novorussiya right now. Saying Novorussiya is merely a reference to the old, real Novorussiya, not just Donbass. Its a way for Putin to stoke domestic Russian nationalism by harking back to the good old Empire days and how nice it would be if Russia could invade its way back to old glory.
The whole of Ukraine voted for independence from Russia when the soviet union broke up. If an area wants to become a separate nation then that has to be an internal matter. Of course Crimea wasn't allowed to become an independent nation but has been annexed by Russia(Russia was previously committed to those borders) and both the internal political landscape in Ukraine and the whole crisis comes from Russian intervention and attempted domination of Ukraine.
The revolution was triggered by an attempt to force Ukraine into Putin's trade block and it backfired on him.
I have no problem with east Ukraine going it separate way in the fullness of time but I do object to it being voted on while Russian troops are massed there and the referendum being forced at gun point on the Ukrainians by Russia.
I'll let the map speak for itself. There's no such thing as Novorussiya right now. Saying Novorussiya is merely a reference to the old, real Novorussiya, not just Donbass. Its a way for Putin to stoke domestic Russian nationalism by harking back to the good old Empire days and how nice it would be if Russia could invade its way back to old glory.
What was called Novorossiya (New Russia) back then isn't what separatists refer to in the war conflict in the southeast of Ukraine. They speak of the two regions I'd mentioned earlier and only of them. That's what most of them are from and that's where the conflict is taking place. Odessa isn't a part of it.
I've long admired Russia's ability to invent new countries whenever it wants and convince idiots to buy into it.
They only refer to those two now because that is what they are fighting for at the moment. If they gain control of them, you can bet your house the likes of Kherson, Nikolaev, Odessa, Dnieprpetrovsk, and Zapaharozia would be included in "what they call them at the moment".
https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/13/putins-frozen-conflicts/
This whole thing started because Putin felt threatened. It has nothing to do with independence or the people in eastern Ukraine. An association agreement led to this situation because Putin wanted to damage Ukraine's chances of reform and keep it in his sphere of influence. He doesn't care about the people in Novorossiya or Nouveau Russia or whatever he'll call the parts of Ukraine he can take.
I'm stating facts here, Raul. As in who, what, where and when. You're making assumptions.
Next thing, you'll tell us they consider Kiev and Warsaw parts of Novorossiya. And that's exactly the kind of propaganda bullshit the western media is spouting to demonize the separatists and Russia that's backing them.
They only call it that for the moment because that is as far as they have invaded. If there were no western pushback, Crimea would lead to Donbass (as it predictably has), and Donbass would lead to places likes Odessa, Kharkiv etc and suddenly everything would be referred to as Novorussiya as it was in the old days. This is the problem with Putin and his lies - nobody other than his own trolls believes him anymore.
This economist actually gets it.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/video...ay-collapse-through-war-schmieding?cmpid=yhoo
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/video...ay-collapse-through-war-schmieding?cmpid=yhoo
Why else would Putin and his regime use the term Novorossiya other than to invoke the idea of the past "Novorossiya"? Do you think using such historically loaded terminology is an accident?
I think I understand that, as far as a foreigner can, and you may well be completely right, and understandably not happy with a referendum under those terms.
The thing is though, other countries are being asked to risk severe economic downturn and open-ended military escalation to support you. Now there are circumstances where I would vote for that, but not at the first asking of the usual gung-ho military loons we have, and not on the basis that you 'may well be right'. I don't think it's unreasonable as a relative neutral to ask for some more information from a referendum before making serious economic and military commitments.
It would have to be UN managed and obviously fair of course, and consider that if the rebels or Russians were not willing to go along with that, then that would be information in itself.
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I think the fundamental questions is whether Europe is willing to tolerate an authoritarian, nuclear armed regime invading its neighbors and stealing their land, right on Europe's doorstep.
The answer seems to be: "Yep, where the oil at yo?"
That is indeed a good question, but forgive me if I view it against a background of a couple of decades or more of interventionists making mistake after mistake. Let's get some facts on the table first this time, the Ukraine situation may be more sortable than you think. Whatever else, Russia is a rational opponent, when it comes to doing stupid things internationally they are at least no worse than the US.
I do believe that our countries are facing a huge threat, but being purely pragmatic, I want Russia and the other big players on our side against it if possible. There is a bigger picture to consider.
That actually sounds more like the US military doctrine motto.
Puitin may be using it for any number of reasons, including the one you mentioned, but he knows the limits of what he can do realistically. I personally believe that his aim is to unsettle and generally make things as hard as possible for the new leaders of Ukraine in order to make them meet the conditions offered by the leaders of the rebel states. Putin will not authorize a full army invasion unless the situation becomes absolutely desperate and there's a very little chance of that. In such a case he could have easily won the war long time ago, but the political, economic and social consequences of such invasion would have been catastrophic for both countries, even though Russia's military victory would have been a given and it wouldn't have taken longer than a few weeks to accomplish it.
It's no wonder Merkel and Hollande suddenly sprung into action and wanted to talk after months of ignoring the conflict when it appeared that the Ukrainian side were on the verge of yet another huge defeat, this time at the Debaltseve pocket where currently eight to ten thousand Ukrainian soldiers are encircled and cut off from the supply lines. Military failures and incompetent and corrupt government combined with the country's economics that 's on the brink of default make things very difficult for Poroshenko and his team and strengthens the positions of his critics from the Kolomoyskyi camp, another powerful oligarch, who is currently the governor of Dnipropetrovsk region, and who's got lots of money and influence in the country. Then there's the Yatsenyuk - Turchynov group, both former allies of of Yulia Tymoshenko, they represent a rival faction that opposes, albeit not publically, the president's team both in Rada (the parliament) and the government and clearly have big ambitions and are waiting for their chance to take over.
Putin would have had his mission accomplished moment and then bled money and troops in the insurgency which followed for years and years and years.
Rest assured that if Putin invaded all of Ukraine, the ensuing sanctions and probable military retaliation would send Russia back to the 1980s. The only reason he hasn't gone further whilst continuously lying about being in Ukraine in the first place is the threat of western retaliation. The Russian economy is in a very bad place right now, albeit not as bad as Ukraine's, although the Ukrainians can almost certainly rely on western support in rebuilding/restructuring once governance reforms are put in place. Russia doesn't have such a luxury, since its policies are built on a foundation of corruption and the use of nationalism and foreign conquest to cover up years of kleptocratic abuse by its elites, most notably Putin himself.
This ceasefire of Merkel's really stood the test of time.
I meant victory in a military campaign, obviously. But it would make no sense for Russia to go into war with Ukraine for a variety of reasons, including the one you've mentioned.
Not true. Putin wouldn't go further because he simply doesn't need to. Russia doesn't plan to sponsor Ukraine like it used to in the past and couldn't afford it even if it wanted to due to its own economic problems. Beating Ukrainian army and taking over the country is a costly enterprise that would serve absolutely no purpose but would surely lead to a catastrophe with long term consequences.
The corruption in Ukraine is bigger than in Russia and nothing has changed in that respect a year after Yanukovich was ousted. You overrate the size of western support to Ukraine and I bet you they'll have a very tough time selling those reforms to the impoverished population that's already getting disillusioned at the sight of rapidly rising cost of living and countless military coffins being brought back from yet another failed military operation in the southeast. Add the non stop daily propaganda lies from all the major Ukrainian media outlets, especially concerning the war and a crackdown on any nonconformity, opposition or protest against current leadership and you'll get the picture. And it's just the beginning.
We heard that when he was in Crimea and yet he managed to continue going further to get Donbass. He will keep going until he understands that going further will come at a cost.
He isn't going anywhere. It's the separatists that fight in the southeast. Russia isn't mentioned as a side of the conflict in any of the Minsk documents and Putin always insists that it's a conflict between Ukraine and its rebel states. That's the whole deal: US and EU are trying to get Putin to admit that Russia is involved and have Russia deal with Ukraine directly and Putin is resolved to make Poroshenko talk to the separatist leaders thus making them legitimate.
Why one earth would anything Putin say be taken seriously given that he's already exposed himself as a highly accomplished liar (example: No russian troops in Crimea, then admitting Russian troops were in Crimea after it was annexed). His word is as about as good as the current value of the ruble.
From the newbs....
This Frontline Documentary basically lays out Putin's life on a plate. Well worth a watch from beginning to end.....especially Sergey Kolesnikov's bit at 38:35.
This Frontline Documentary basically lays out Putin's life on a plate. Well worth a watch from beginning to end.....especially Sergey Kolesnikov's bit at 38:35.