nah I certainly wouldnt. We need him for proper balance, especially in Nani's absense. Young isnt exactly a conventional left winger...
Shinji Kagawa
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nah I certainly wouldnt. We need him for proper balance, especially in Nani's absense. Young isnt exactly a conventional left winger...
With the current form of our wingers I'd like to see some sort of 4-2-3-1, with Rooney behind RVP/Hernandez, and two of Welbs, Kagawa, Giggs and Young alongside him, according to fitness and form.
Yeah, that's what I'd like too. Nani if and when he returns to fitness and the right frame of mind would be brilliant in that sort of role as well.
Well thats what we played only Valencia was in there. And I'd much rather see him start than Giggs.
Yeah, I'd see Kagawa ahead of Valencia until Val regains his confidence and form.
True, being dropped is the best route to reach that.
How you get there? If anyone is in danger (and after the weekend I'd be loathed to change anything) it's Young.
I wasn't impressed with Kagawa before his injury and he damn sure shouldn't walk right back into the team after yesterday (unless of course someone has a shocker against Sunderland)
We're Manchester United. You earn your place through performances and showing some bollocks, not by not being able to handle a place on the bench.
See De Gea vs City for how it's done.
Yup. When Anderson's back, I'd prefer some kind of 433, diamond or christmas tree. Until then, 4231 with Cleverley and Carrick as the 2 whenever possible.
Last week, against Reading and Cluj, SAF put Rooney on the right, and he was amazing there, particularly at Reading. So I would imagine at some point the manager might try to see how having a three of Young (or Nani) on the left, Kagawa through the middle and Rooney on the right would work.
Even though Rooney was top class yesterday, I still noticed a tendency to play the ball wide inside of driving through the middle or laying a through ball on for RVP who was making amazing runs on the shoulder. Kagawa might offer a bit more of that than Rooney, so it's worth a try at least.
Even though Rooney was top class yesterday, I still noticed a tendency to play the ball wide inside of driving through the middle or laying a through ball on for RVP who was making amazing runs on the shoulder. Kagawa might offer a bit more of that than Rooney, so it's worth a try at least.
Only issue with Kagawa behind striker I have seen is that he does not win many battles in the center and also some of his tracking back is lacking. This is in comparison to Rooney. And in big games like yesterday we need that hole player to make up numbers like Rooney did.
In the upcoming games him to left and Young on right along with RVP and Rooney might be quite something.
In the upcoming games him to left and Young on right along with RVP and Rooney might be quite something.
Rooney will not be the one competing with him for a spot at all. It's the two wingers in a 4-4-2/4-2-3-1 and the 3rd forward in the diamond that will be.
No problem. Kagawa can be employed on the right
I think that's where there could be competition. Rooney's played an advanced midfield position a couple of times this season.
Still, there's no reason Kagawa couldn't play there with Rooney and RVP as the strikers.
Like this?
---------------Carrick
Cleverley--------------------Anderson
-------------- Kagawa
---------------Rooney(free role)
--------------Van Persie
I personally still think a system off:
Carrick Clev
Nani Rooney and Kagawa
RVP
Is our best bet, mixes the solidity of having players who can play more narrow, with the ability to still exploit the flanks. Any of the front four can switch comfortably. Kagawa might be more ideal centrally, but he can drift in, in this role the same way silva/mata do and as I said no reason he can't swap over matches with Rooney.
It depends on whether Nani stays but if he does I think this could work really well.
Carrick Clev
Nani Rooney and Kagawa
RVP
Is our best bet, mixes the solidity of having players who can play more narrow, with the ability to still exploit the flanks. Any of the front four can switch comfortably. Kagawa might be more ideal centrally, but he can drift in, in this role the same way silva/mata do and as I said no reason he can't swap over matches with Rooney.
It depends on whether Nani stays but if he does I think this could work really well.
That is what I have wanted. Although it seems unlikely as Nani's probably off. I think Kagawa coould be very good on the inside left.
When we bought him I am sure Fergie had a vision of how he'd play in our system, I imagine it will be from the left interchanging with Rooney during games. I think he needs to get back playing as regular as possible in order to get used to the league, it's the only way he's going to.
He plays from the left for Japan in a 4-2-3-1 quite often.
If Nani is off personally I hope we get in someone who can play in a similar way. I think the fluid front four could be great, with Valencia we're just not going to get that, in some games it might work really well having him as the fixed width and the other 3 interchanging but I think Nani/a similar player would fit in better.
Young played really well yest and could certainly do a job but I think he lacks a little in terms of link up particularly on the right where it would be harder for him to come inside on his left.
Young played really well yest and could certainly do a job but I think he lacks a little in terms of link up particularly on the right where it would be harder for him to come inside on his left.
Yeah, remember scoring a very good goal coming in off the left and curling the ball into the far corner.
I would've loved that too, but sadly I can't ever see it happening now.
Indeed. I think Nani is off in January if we can bring in a replacement. If not Fergie will hang onto him just in case. If he signs his contract it will change though.
That formation would still work without Nani, I'd probably prefer Valencia to play because it makes us more balanced in attack. With Kagawa drifting inside there wouldn't be much width on the left so a proper right winger would balance that out.
I agree and judging by our pursuit of Hazard, Sanchez and Lucas it seems Fergie feels the same.
Valencia holding his width could work well particularly against better teams, but with someone like nani I think you get more. He can give you the ability to come inside and link up, switch players and is comfortable making a diagonal run inside. But also if we want he can hold his width if we want to double up in the full back.
Additionally with kagawa playing a bit more centrally we should be stronger in possession as we will have more players close by to aid ball retention and winning it back, so we might be able to afford to let the likes if rafael roam even more in the majority of games, giving us that constant width.
Ash: What do you think about the defense on the left if we play Kagawa as an inside forward and Evra moves up to provide width on the left? I think we would get exposed as Evra's doesn't have the legs to get back as fast as he could a few years back. It would be my biggest worry with playing Kagawa on the left ahead of Young. Kagawa defends from the front but I have never been very impressed with his ability to track back and help the defense. Plus, he gets push over pretty easily by more physical players.
I think playing that narrow sounds better than it would work in practise. With the diamond you have the added protection of the defensive midfielder which allows the fullbacks to constantly push up and provide width without being exposed defensively. But there wouldn't be the same level of freedom to do so here.
Also making it so congested centrally wouldn't get the best out of Rooney, he plays best with room IMO.
Also making it so congested centrally wouldn't get the best out of Rooney, he plays best with room IMO.
Rooney plays best with room to run onto the ball. He gets that both in the hole in a 4-2-3-1 and in the diamond, where he can dove tail with any one in the hole
I don't see why it would be a problem, Evra doesn't have to go overboard and lets not forget we managed to deal with Ronaldo on the flank before, with slow Scholes and Kagawa whilst he might not be that good defensively is much better than Ronaldo and clev has much more energy to help defensively.
There are other things to consider as well. Firstly if Rooney plays more as an a/m in that system than as a second striker then the centre will be stronger but also Kagawa drifting inside will help aid keep possession so much, and let us be in a position to slow down the oppositions attacks when they win it off us up the pitch.
Atm, whilst our two wingers give good cover to the fullbacks, because they're so wide, we're left exposed in the middle, if teams win it backs against us we have massive gaps between the midfield. With Kagawa drifting in he helps to keep the ball better and like I said puts us in a better position to stop attacks before they start.
That's why we look much more secure in the diamond because we can close the middle easier and have more, less risky passing options. I don't think the diamond is the long term solution, but aspects of it like that could really help us and can be worked in to the 4231.
Plus most decent teams don't heavily exploit the flanks anymore with wingers and in truth although we have conceded a lot of headed goals a lot of that is to deal with a lack of partnership in the middle, particularly with our most physical defender Vidic out, and lacking a dominant gk.
Also the beauty of that system is that it can easily be changed. You could simply switch Rooney and Kagawa if we are getting a bit exposed out wide, plus with clev and carrick in there, who ever is playing a/m can tuck in if need be with one of the midfielders helping the fullback. We've not seen that much with scholes/giggs because they lack the legs to do it.
theon: I agree, I don't think the diamond is the long term solution but I think the 4231, howver you want to call it, is perfect for us.
I can't remember who it was against that Kagawa started on the right but he was terrible. In the second half he was switched to the left (in place of Young who was substituted at half time iirc) and he was able to play his more natural game.
He can cut in much easier from the left, on the right he ended up running down the line a few times but he is not a winger and he didn't look comfortable at all trying to that job. The left or in the middle is where he needs to play
I think Evra worries me more than playing Kagawa on the left. People underestimate how Young has helped him look good on the left and made us more secure.
With the earlier pursuits of Sneijder, Ozil, Nasri to the ultimate buy of Kagawa, I was under the impression that SAF wanted to use him in the hole behind the striker and push Rooney up top. I guessed his purchase was a way to make us play more through the middle and not solely depend on the wings. He was brought in to add another dimension to our attack. Though RVP's arrival has thrown my theory in a bit of a tizzy. Rooney is our best overall player and can't be left on the bench. Also, playing him through the middle is the best solution as covers for our weakness in the midfield. I don't remember the last time Rooney played as a support striker, he has been playing as an attacking midfielder, who links the midfield to the attack since the beginning of last season.
Diamond was a temporary solution until our wingers were out. It's too narrow and one dimensional anyways.
I like the way you are thinking about this but I think in order for the system to be a total success we would need to press better as a team. We would need to start defending from the front more than we do now. The way we play now, Young is a much better option on the left. For a lop-sided 4-2-3-1 to work properly we would need more mobile defenders, who are capable of playing a high line and have the energy to get back quick. We would also need a younger left-footed left back, who can provide the width and also track back to thwart the opposition attacks. Also, Scholes, Giggs or Fletcher cannot play in the team with Kagawa on the left due to their limited mobility.
If we had managed to get Lucas in the summer we would really be soo 
Having that speedy, dribbler to compliment the other attackers we have would really take us up a level. I really hope we don't give up our pursuit of this type of player, as I don't think we have one coming through the ranks either, and if Nani goes, we will need one.
Having that speedy, dribbler to compliment the other attackers we have would really take us up a level. I really hope we don't give up our pursuit of this type of player, as I don't think we have one coming through the ranks either, and if Nani goes, we will need one.Will be interesting to see how he fits in when he comes back. Not sure how suited he is to our system which focuses on wide play. Either way we'll probable get to see the best of him next season.
It would take some adjusting but the pieces are there, and as the diamond have shown we can press well.
Like I said you have to remember that if we play 2 more mobile players centrally such as Carrick and Clev they should be able to protect the fullbacks better. With the way we play atm, because we are so wide, the midfielders have enough on their hands in the centre, they can't start protecting the fullbacks and that's why we need to use the wingers more.
In a more narrow system if Kagawa is tucked in, then he/Rooney can help slot in if we're under pressure, allowing a midfielder to help double up with the fullback and as I said we should keep possession better.
If you think about it a lot of teams play 433, which isn't much different from this system, and they don't get their full backs continually exposed. Evra has been below par at times but he's not hopeless and end of the day if he can't adapt then he'll have to make way.
Also Scholes and Giggs maybe too immobile to do it against good teams, Fletch still needs time before we can judge, but against weaker teams our dominance of possession should more then combat it, but either way we don't have to play this way every time, we can change the system/ players to suit the team we play.
As a first choice system though, without those 3 then I think it would work very well and has enough adapatability in it, that were we to start worrying about the flanks we could alter the systems, without sacrificing too much quality, for example Rooney going left, Kagawa tucking in.
We have no need nor reason to employ Rooney on the left
I didn't say it should be a regular thing just simply if in a system like that we were coming under pressure we could easily switch him with Kagawa and not cause much harm provided Kagawa has adapted to the league. In general though you'd want Rooney central but I would hope we could get some movement where by he isn't always central and Kagawa isn't always on the left.
Players being able to constantly switch position in the forward line is the way forward.
With the attacking talent we have it would be better for us to play 4-2-3-1 than a 4-3-3. In order to press better we would need to add another midfielder who is more mobile than Carrick. In the diamond, we have had both Clev and Ando doing the job and Carrick or Fletcher staying back, helping the defense and provide cover for the full-backs. If we are going to play with only two in the middle than both our midfielders need to be quick to convert from midfield to attack and vice-versa. We cannot afford to leave Carrick hanging back all the time just as a shield to the defense.
What I am trying to say is that we need to defend and attack more as a team. The midfield and the attack can't be as isolated from the defense as they are sometimes now. Also, we need to keep the width as the narrower you become the easier it becomes to defend. Parking the bus becomes much more easier. Stretching the field is an important aspect of opening teams up. I would not like us to lose that.
I like the idea but as others have mentioned we wouldn't see the best of Kagawa until the next season. By that time, hopefully he would have adjusted to our system and developed more physically. Also, may be we would have added another midfielder and have a quartet of Anderson, Cleverley, New MF and Carrick to pick from, along with Powell and Fletcher to complement them and give them rest in the easier cup games.
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