Transgender rights discussion

[Dr. Dwayne]

I knew I was going to get these sort of replies. You just jumped because I said mentally ill like you think mental illness is some deranged psychopathy or something. Depression is a form of mental illness, too. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is 'insane', it just means that the behavioral patterns, thoughts and moods are broken. This can manifest in entirely different ways.

Someone thinking he is born in the wrong body is definitely not a sign of mental healthiness, imo


The fact that the majority of them have considered killing or have killed, or at the very least tried to kill themselves. You can look that up pretty fast. This is not a sign of a mentally fit individual. Again that doesn't mean that they should be punished or anything of the like, but they should be treated and helped, not encouraged. That is why I gave the ridiculous example of the superhero stuff. At the end of the day, if someone has a bad habit, you don't encourage him, you try to cut it out. If someone does fentanyl or meth, you don't say 'hey man, more power to you, that's healthy', instead you try to help him, if you can. Find out what's the crux of issue since there is always something deep down that has affected them to do that.

The error in your thinking here is that they have a condition that needs to be fixed in such manner that they accept the body they are in.

It's not a horrible thought but it does discount a lived experience that you have no concept of.

Have you considered that the fix is actually supporting them as they explore such a transition? As you say many people is this situation end up killing themselves. Usually that's because they don't feel they have support or are forced to live as a gender they don't feel they belong to.

Maybe the solution is happy people who feel they belong in the skin they're in? The approach you seem to favour is one that has been tried with homosexuality and transgenderism for ages with zero success and lots of suicides.

 

[HookedOnAPhelan]

nyt, forever policing the the left wing of acceptable public opinion

Sorry, but what is so terrible about this? I don't get it.

 

[berbatrick]

Sorry, but what is so terrible about this? I don't get it.

specifically seeking out doctors with misgivings, and specifically saying they don't want to talk to specialists. no reason to specify either unless you're going in with a particular perspective.

 

[dumbo]

Knowing you're going to be pilloried for writing a bunch of ignorant and ill concieved things isn't mitigating. Knowing it's going to scald you when you pour a boiling kettle over your head doesn't win you any points if you then go and do it anyway.

 

[Lay]

Time to boycott Mr. Beast according to Matt Walsh

 

[calodo2003]

 

[Wibble]

I knew I was going to get these sort of replies. You just jumped because I said mentally ill like you think mental illness is some deranged psychopathy or something. Depression is a form of mental illness, too. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is 'insane', it just means that the behavioral patterns, thoughts and moods are broken. This can manifest in entirely different ways.

Someone thinking he is born in the wrong body is definitely not a sign of mental healthiness, imo


The fact that the majority of them have considered killing or have killed, or at the very least tried to kill themselves. You can look that up pretty fast. This is not a sign of a mentally fit individual. Again that doesn't mean that they should be punished or anything of the like, but they should be treated and helped, not encouraged. That is why I gave the ridiculous example of the superhero stuff. At the end of the day, if someone has a bad habit, you don't encourage him, you try to cut it out. If someone does fentanyl or meth, you don't say 'hey man, more power to you, that's healthy', instead you try to help him, if you can. Find out what's the crux of issue since there is always something deep down that has affected them to do that.

We "jumped" because being trans is not a mental illness. Medically I mean. It is not an illness that will go away with pills, therapy or pulling yourself together.

It can result in some form of depression or other condition, particularly if the person doesn't get assistance to consider how to progress with transition (or not). This is why young trans people have very high rates of suicidal ideation as they suffer very high rates of being bullied or ridiculed often before they are even aware of why they feel different. Older trans people have much lower suicide ideation and attempt rates (but still elevated as their life challenges don't totally disappear). Furthermore treating it as a mental illness/moral failing results in dangerous stuff like conversion therapy. Suicide attempts are 4x higher again in those who have undergone these misguided (to be generous) and dangerous programs. Thankfully they are gradually being outlawed in many places.

And you don't need to help find the crux of the issue because we already know, and largely how to help people. Falsely calling trans people mentally ill, with the implication that a few pills or a bit of therapy will make it go away, merely contributes to the challenges that trans people have.

 

[Wibble]

Sorry, but what is so terrible about this? I don't get it.

Because they are avoiding seeking the opinions of specialists in the area or doctors who are fine with current practices. So all that will be left is a handful of GPs with prejudice who can be used to make it seem like many doctors are backing g the presumably anti-trans narrative that has already been decided upon.

You get it in the area of climate change or evolution and you usually find that the objecting doctors don't have qualifications in appropriate areas e.g. engineers not understanding natural selection due to religious beliefs.

 

[nimic]

One day...

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

We "jumped" because being trans is not a mental illness. Medically I mean. It is not an illness that will go away with pills, therapy or pulling yourself together.

It can result in some form of depression or other condition, particularly if the person doesn't get assistance to consider how to progress with transition (or not). This is why young trans people have very high rates of suicidal ideation as they suffer very high rates of being bullied or ridiculed often before they are even aware of why they feel different. Older trans people have much lower suicide ideation and attempt rates (but still elevated as their life challenges don't totally disappear). Furthermore treating it as a mental illness/moral failing results in dangerous stuff like conversion therapy Suicide attempts are 4x higher again in those who have undergone these misguided (to be generous) and dangerous programs. Thankfully they are gradually being outlawed in many places.

And you don't need to help find the crux of the issue because we already know, and largely how to help people. Falsely calling trans people mentally ill, with the implication that a few pills or a bit of therapy will make it go away, merely contributes to the challenges that trans people have.

To be fair didn't he say gender dysphoria, rather than being trans, is a mental illness?

Gender dysphoria is one form of body dysphoria isn't it?

Don't we treat, rightly or wrongly, the other forms of body dysphoria as mental illness?

 

[calodo2003]

To be fair didn't he say gender dysphoria, rather than being trans, is a mental illness?

Gender dysphoria is one form of body dysphoria isn't it?

Don't we treat, rightly or wrongly, the other forms of body dysphoria as mental illness?

They said ‘these people.’

Infer from that what you will.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

They said ‘these people.’

Infer from that what you will.

Fair enough.

 

[stepic]

I knew I was going to get these sort of replies. You just jumped because I said mentally ill like you think mental illness is some deranged psychopathy or something. Depression is a form of mental illness, too. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is 'insane', it just means that the behavioral patterns, thoughts and moods are broken. This can manifest in entirely different ways.

Someone thinking he is born in the wrong body is definitely not a sign of mental healthiness, imo


The fact that the majority of them have considered killing or have killed, or at the very least tried to kill themselves. You can look that up pretty fast. This is not a sign of a mentally fit individual. Again that doesn't mean that they should be punished or anything of the like, but they should be treated and helped, not encouraged. That is why I gave the ridiculous example of the superhero stuff. At the end of the day, if someone has a bad habit, you don't encourage him, you try to cut it out. If someone does fentanyl or meth, you don't say 'hey man, more power to you, that's healthy', instead you try to help him, if you can. Find out what's the crux of issue since there is always something deep down that has affected them to do that.

you’re prioritising someone’s body over their mind. There is nothing wrong with a trans person’s mind, there is something misaligned with their body. That’s a frankly massive difference.

the reason they commit suicide is because of people like you. If people like you started treating trans people like the normal people they are rather than people who are somehow ‘broken’, that would probably help reduce that suicide rate. But people like you prefer your own inane ramblings rather than, you know, actual medical professionals and specialists. That’s the world we live in.

 

[Wibble]

To be fair didn't he say gender dysphoria, rather than being trans, is a mental illness?

Gender dysphoria is one form of body dysphoria isn't it?

Don't we treat, rightly or wrongly, the other forms of body dysphoria as mental illness?

Firstly I think that the OP uses gender dysphoria and transgender interchangeably (these people).

That aside I assume you are referring to Body Dysphoria Disorder (of which there are a number of types) which is a mental illness that obsessively concentrates on some "flawed" aspect of your body or appearance. It is a mental health disorder because the flaw is either false or greatly exaggerated and results in obsessive and often hugely harmful behaviour.

Gender dysphoria may sound the same but is not considered as a disorder anymore. This is because the mismatch between birth/biological sex is not something you can (or rather should) treat as a reversible illness (as say the body dysphoria associated with anorexia potentially is) but rather something that people often need assistance with to avoid developing mental illness such as depression.

 

[The Corinthian]

the reason they commit suicide is because of people like you.

 

[Wibble]

While not a direct cause and effect even (hopefully) inadvertent anti-trans sentiment can contribute significantly to the problems trans people experience, which in turn can and does contribute to increased rates of suicide/suicidal ideation.

 

[The Corinthian]

While not a direct cause and effect even (hopefully) inadvertent anti-trans sentiment can contribute significantly to the problems trans people experience, which in turn can and does contribute to increased rates of suicide/suicidal ideation.

There’s a clear link between mental health state and people identifying as trans but to callously say that suicides are because of people like that poster is just an idiotic take. There’s a good good natured debate to be had on what is a controversial topic on the role of mental health in trans identifying people and comments like that have no place in them.

 

[NotThatSoph]

There’s a clear link between mental health state and people identifying as trans but to callously say that suicides are because of people like that poster is just an idiotic take. There’s a good good natured debate to be had on what is a controversial topic on the role of mental health in trans identifying people and comments like that have no place in them.

Comments like "trans people kill themselves because of the scientifically accepted treatment", however? Because that's what the moron said.

 

[Wibble]

There’s a good good natured debate to be had on what is a controversial topic on the role of mental health in trans identifying people and comments like that have no place in them.

I'd hope that discussion could be a civil and reasoned as possible, and such comments are both too absolute, even if there is some element of truth, and too confrontational, as everyone then tends to retreat to their own hill to defend it (and possibly die on it).

 

[stepic]

There’s a clear link between mental health state and people identifying as trans but to callously say that suicides are because of people like that poster is just an idiotic take. There’s a good good natured debate to be had on what is a controversial topic on the role of mental health in trans identifying people and comments like that have no place in them.

it is far from idiotic to suggest transphobia contributes to trans people committing suicide. That’s fairly basic to be honest.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a trans person’s mental state. There’s no ‘debate’ to be had about that. There is everything wrong with trans people being subjected to discrimination, bullying, and harrassment (which in turn affects their mental state like it would any one of us), from people with viewpoints such as his, which demonstrably leads to a higher % of trans people committing suicide over time.

 

[RedChip]

it is far from idiotic to suggest transphobia contributes to trans people committing suicide. That’s fairly basic to be honest.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a trans person’s mental state. There’s no ‘debate’ to be had about that. There is everything wrong with trans people being subjected to discrimination, bullying, and harrassment (which in turn affects their mental state like it would any one of us), from people with viewpoints such as his, which demonstrably leads to a higher % of trans people committing suicide over time.

I take your general point, but I think your first sentence make it sound like being trans is the cause, where as it is more likely the causes of mental distress are societal, i.e. being socially excluded, suffering transphobia, etc. For similar reasons, neurodiverse people also suffer high rates of mental ill health, suicide ideation, and suicide, which seems to suggest being diverse in this world is itself a factor.

 

[calodo2003]

 

[Stack]

Anecdotal of course but the two people I know who have had gender affirming surgery are happy, engaging and doing great things with their lives.

 

[Wibble]

Anecdotal of course but the two people I know who have had gender affirming surgery are happy, engaging and doing great things with their lives.

My nephew is the same. An utterly miserable teenager but now a very happy adult.

 

[Stack]

My nephew is the same. An utterly miserable teenager but now a very happy adult.

This whole Trans thing is an issue blown massively out of proportion and its being used as a tool to whip up the ignorant and the moronic into a frenzy. Over here in NZ we had some Pro Women rallies this weekend that were organised and run by white power nut jobs and similar dickheads.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well designed study that shows what you would want/expect to see. Exposing anyone to potentially life risking surgery without positive outcomes like this would be an absolute disaster.

Slightly surprised to see it described as “the first large-scale, controlled study to demonstrate an association between gender-affirming surgery and improved mental health outcomes” Which would imply that before these data were published people were being referred for life changing surgery in the absence of robust evidence that it would help them. Which seems a bit mad. Surely that claim can’t be right?

 

[Sviken]

Have you considered that the fix is actually supporting them as they explore such a transition? As you say many people is this situation end up killing themselves. Usually that's because they don't feel they have support or are forced to live as a gender they don't feel they belong to.

No, because that's just feeding into a delusion of something that is physically and fundamentally not possible - the idea that a man can become a woman and vice versa. Men and women are genetically built different and it's not something you can change by simply performing a sex change operation or injecting hormones into yourself.

Ask yourself this - 10 years ago trans people were mostly non-existent. Then the media and governments started promoting that being trans is normal, okay, encouraging it. People these days turn their children, people who have no idea what planet they are on, let alone make decisions on something life altering such as this, that they are born in the wrong gender.

We "jumped" because being trans is not a mental illness. Medically I mean. It is not an illness that will go away with pills, therapy or pulling yourself together.

It can result in some form of depression or other condition, particularly if the person doesn't get assistance to consider how to progress with transition (or not). This is why young trans people have very high rates of suicidal ideation as they suffer very high rates of being bullied or ridiculed often before they are even aware of why they feel different. Older trans people have much lower suicide ideation and attempt rates (but still elevated as their life challenges don't totally disappear). Furthermore treating it as a mental illness/moral failing results in dangerous stuff like conversion therapy. Suicide attempts are 4x higher again in those who have undergone these misguided (to be generous) and dangerous programs. Thankfully they are gradually being outlawed in many places.

And you don't need to help find the crux of the issue because we already know, and largely how to help people. Falsely calling trans people mentally ill, with the implication that a few pills or a bit of therapy will make it go away, merely contributes to the challenges that trans people have.

It is a form of mental illness though, you just have a preconception of thinking that mental illness equals something "bad" and "evil" which is not the case. I already said, depression is a form of mental illness, as well. Many today suffer from it for variety of reasons. That doesn't make them clinically insane like you're trying to paint me as saying it.

You say that young trans people have high rates of suicide because of being bullied and such, but I have a different thought on the matter. Maybe because young people got the wrong idea on why they are hurting and thought that by transitioning it will fix it, but instead they figure out that it just made it worse? Yes, people kill themselves from bullying, but it's a rare phenomenon. When it comes to 80% having suicide thoughts before or after the transition, don't you think that there is something wrong with that figure already from the get-go and maybe encouraging this behavior isn't helpful or fruitful to these people? There are many studies that showcase that trans people that transition don't become happy, if anything it just makes their underlying condition even worse. And of course, there are people on who the transition has had the opposite effect, sure, but we're talking in general terms here.

Also, I'm not a proponent of pills when it comes to mental health cases at all. I find them to just mask the condition rather than fixing it and in many cases, way down the road, it makes it even worse. Intense long therapy and cutting off media, school and government promotion is my thinking. And after that, if that person wants to transition, fine. But they have to be made fully aware of the consequences and that there is no turning back from that decision. Even if you haven't made it into the final stage of the sex transition, injecting hormones such as testosterone or estrogen into yourself is life-altering in itself.

you’re prioritising someone’s body over their mind. There is nothing wrong with a trans person’s mind, there is something misaligned with their body. That’s a frankly massive difference.

the reason they commit suicide is because of people like you. If people like you started treating trans people like the normal people they are rather than people who are somehow ‘broken’, that would probably help reduce that suicide rate. But people like you prefer your own inane ramblings rather than, you know, actual medical professionals and specialists. That’s the world we live in.

Mind and body are part of the same being. You're saying that there is something misaligned with their body, but how do you even know that? We are born how we are, that's it. There is nothing wrong with any of our bodies. When you start thinking there is something wrong with your body, don't you think that's a little problem? Gender dysphoria is an actual mental illness and trans is only not judged as such because it wouldn't be politically correct, just like the term 'dysphoria' is actually a substitute for 'disorder'

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Ask yourself this - 10 years ago trans people were mostly non-existent. Then the media and governments started promoting that being trans is normal, okay, encouraging it. People these days turn their children, people who have no idea what planet they are on, let alone make decisions on something life altering such as this, that they are born in the wrong gender.

Jesus Christ. You need help, man.

 

[HTG]

Jesus Christ. You need help, man.

But not pills. They just mask their condition, after all.
I also like the idea that we’re born with our bodies so nothing can be wrong with them. No more medication or surgery necessary for those born with heart issues and the like.

 

[crappycraperson]

specifically seeking out doctors with misgivings, and specifically saying they don't want to talk to specialists. no reason to specify either unless you're going in with a particular perspective.

Well if you want to write an article presenting different view points, you need to seek that out. Now the issue is that whether this is an issue where you should pay heed to both sides of argument or not. I don't see anything wrong with presenting view points from any doctors who might have some misgivings given it is provided in the context of whether their viewpoint is a minority or majority one for people in their profession / position.

 

[langster]

Jesus Christ. You need help, man.

I was just about to post the same thing. What the feck did I just read? :

 

[Sviken]

But not pills. They just mask their condition, after all.
I also like the idea that we’re born with our bodies so nothing can be wrong with them. No more medication or surgery necessary for those born with heart issues and the like.

Ah yes, because thinking you're born the wrong gender is absolutely the same as having a heart defect or issues that are life threatening. Totally the same. Some of you guys' mental gymnastics are unreal.

 

[maniak]

Ask yourself this - 10 years ago trans people were mostly non-existent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history

What changed in the last 10 years is that the conservative right realized being anti-gay was a lost cause, so they picked a different group to demonize.

 

[WI_Red]

I think @Sviken is on to something here.

Up until 1920 you didn't see women voting in the US and then along came the media and boom, now they all wanted out of the kitchen and "rights". Same with interracial marriage, no one wanted to mix it up until the liberal commy media got all uppity about laws prohibiting it and then bam, now there are "happy" interracial couples everywhere. And don't get me started with gay people. Like @Sviken said, people are born only man or women so that women, who should still be barefoot in the kitchen, can pump out babies. Anything else is wrong and only appeared a few decades ago because the media said it was cool to be gay.

 

[hobbers]

Slightly surprised to see it described as “the first large-scale, controlled study to demonstrate an association between gender-affirming surgery and improved mental health outcomes” Which would imply that before these data were published people were being referred for life changing surgery in the absence of robust evidence that it would help them. Which seems a bit mad. Surely that claim can’t be right?

You can't evaluate the efficacy of a treatment if you dont already have a cohort who have been given the treatment. Not like you can test gender reassignment surgery on rats.

This is the crux of the issue with giving children access to puberty blockers or hormone therapy. There's no robust study data to show it will help them. And there can't be for another 5-10 years, when there could be a big enough cohort to evaluate the long term outcomes.

 

[HTG]

Ah yes, because thinking you're born the wrong gender is absolutely the same as having a heart defect or issues that are life threatening. Totally the same. Some of you guys' mental gymnastics are unreal.

You’re born with it so just accept it and die. That’s your logic. So at least have the balls (or get some) and stand by it.

 

[HTG]

I think @Sviken is on to something here.

Up until 1920 you didn't see women voting in the US and then along came the media and boom, now they all wanted out of the kitchen and "rights". Same with interracial marriage, no one wanted to mix it up until the liberal commy media got all uppity about laws prohibiting it and then bam, now there are "happy" interracial couples everywhere. And don't get me started with gay people. Like @Sviken said, people are born only man or women so that women, who should still be barefoot in the kitchen, can pump out babies. Anything else is wrong and only appeared a few decades ago because the media said it was cool to be gay.

I also believe we should make life miserable again for left handed people. Ever since we stopped beating the shut out of these satanic demons, they are everywhere. Shows you how the media and the woke left washed their brains and turned them left handed.

 

[calodo2003]

No, because that's just feeding into a delusion of something that is physically and fundamentally not possible - the idea that a man can become a woman and vice versa. Men and women are genetically built different and it's not something you can change by simply performing a sex change operation or injecting hormones into yourself.

Ask yourself this - 10 years ago trans people were mostly non-existent. Then the media and governments started promoting that being trans is normal, okay, encouraging it. People these days turn their children, people who have no idea what planet they are on, let alone make decisions on something life altering such as this, that they are born in the wrong gender.


It is a form of mental illness though, you just have a preconception of thinking that mental illness equals something "bad" and "evil" which is not the case. I already said, depression is a form of mental illness, as well. Many today suffer from it for variety of reasons. That doesn't make them clinically insane like you're trying to paint me as saying it.

You say that young trans people have high rates of suicide because of being bullied and such, but I have a different thought on the matter. Maybe because young people got the wrong idea on why they are hurting and thought that by transitioning it will fix it, but instead they figure out that it just made it worse? Yes, people kill themselves from bullying, but it's a rare phenomenon. When it comes to 80% having suicide thoughts before or after the transition, don't you think that there is something wrong with that figure already from the get-go and maybe encouraging this behavior isn't helpful or fruitful to these people? There are many studies that showcase that trans people that transition don't become happy, if anything it just makes their underlying condition even worse. And of course, there are people on who the transition has had the opposite effect, sure, but we're talking in general terms here.

Also, I'm not a proponent of pills when it comes to mental health cases at all. I find them to just mask the condition rather than fixing it and in many cases, way down the road, it makes it even worse. Intense long therapy and cutting off media, school and government promotion is my thinking. And after that, if that person wants to transition, fine. But they have to be made fully aware of the consequences and that there is no turning back from that decision. Even if you haven't made it into the final stage of the sex transition, injecting hormones such as testosterone or estrogen into yourself is life-altering in itself.


Mind and body are part of the same being. You're saying that there is something misaligned with their body, but how do you even know that? We are born how we are, that's it. There is nothing wrong with any of our bodies. When you start thinking there is something wrong with your body, don't you think that's a little problem? Gender dysphoria is an actual mental illness and trans is only not judged as such because it wouldn't be politically correct, just like the term 'dysphoria' is actually a substitute for 'disorder'

So, are you of the opinion that being trans is a choice?

I truly hope you don’t work in or have any connection to any field of mental health.

 

[nimic]

Ask yourself this - 10 years ago trans people were mostly non-existent.

This is obviously incorrect, but that aside if you surveyed the number of gay people in Victorian England, you would find very few of them. Does that mean they didn't exist, or that they are created by media and governments?

 

[berbatrick]

Well if you want to write an article presenting different view points, you need to seek that out. Now the issue is that whether this is an issue where you should pay heed to both sides of argument or not. I don't see anything wrong with presenting view points from any doctors who might have some misgivings given it is provided in the context of whether their viewpoint is a minority or majority one for people in their profession / position.

if you want to know what doctors think about as a treatment, you'd ask doctors, especially doctors who face these patients every day.
if you want to know what doctors think about it as outsiders, you'd exclude the most relevant doctors.
if you want to know why doctors oppose it, you'd seek out one viewpoint among them especially.

it allows "some doctors say this, others say this", with no clarity on whether they actually face these patients or how representative their views are. the reporter himself clearly has a particular pov, there's a lot of his tweets and stuff in the replies.

Slightly surprised to see it described as “the first large-scale, controlled study to demonstrate an association between gender-affirming surgery and improved mental health outcomes” Which would imply that before these data were published people were being referred for life changing surgery in the absence of robust evidence that it would help them. Which seems a bit mad. Surely that claim can’t be right?

it's from early 2021. based on a quick google, this meta-analysis of 13 articles is from 2019 and has a similar conclusion. According to this website, which I don't trust as much as a published paper, a review of 55 studies published before 2018 found that 51 of them reported similar conclusions. Not motivated enough to go through those and find what's unnique about the 2021 paper that they call it the "first".

Also found a few conservative websites (heritage, etc) that cite a Swedish study with the opposite conclusion - a big design difference that jumps out is that they compare surgically altered people with the general population, rather than people who couldn't get/didn't want surgery.